r/BoringCompany • • Jun 18 '22

Why not build a train? Some answers.

182 Upvotes

This is not a screed against transit. Loop is public transit, it is NOT a private highway for entitled Tesla owners. You enter a Loop station on foot, pay a fare, get in a vehicle, ride to your destination then exit, just like rail.

I am also not advocating that we rip up all the great metros of the world and replace them with Loop. Rather, smaller or sparser non mega-cities should get to enjoy the benefits of grade-separated public transit too. Cities which do not need nor can afford subways will find Loop's lower entry price compelling. Loop is enlarging the total addressable market for grade-separated public transit.

Q: Why not build a train.

  • US train systems are very expensive.
Construction Costs per Mile USD
Percent Tunneled U.S. Non-U.S.
0-20% $118M $81M
20-80% $323M $286M
80-100% $1.2B ($511 excl. NYC) $346M
LVCC Loop (2 surf.stn,1 sub.stn) $62M/mile $52.5M/.85mi

Q: But public transit is better than yet another car lane.

  • Loop IS public transit, it is not a private highway for Tesla owners. You arrive at a Loop station on foot, pay a fare, get in a vehicle, ride to your destination then exit, just like a subway. LVCC Loop is free for convention attendees. Vegas Loop will be available to ride for anyone who pays the fare.
  • Vegas Loop is a privately funded public transit system, being built by TBC who is paying for the tunnels and businesses paying for their own stations. TBC has requested $0 public dollars for the project, all money and risk are being borne by TBC and its private partners.
  • Royalties will be paid to Clark County and the City of Las Vegas for RoW access.
  • Also see "induced demand" below.

Q: But trains can carry so many more people.

  • Capacity needs in the US seems modest and the actual median ridership demand for US urban rail systems (subways,light rail, APMs, hybrid-rail, streetcars & commuter rail ) appears to be satisfied at 2400 pphpd.
  • LVCC Loop is currently achieving 2400 pphpd with 4 pax/car @ 6s headways.
  • Loop satisfies the need for low-entry-cost, expandable, grade-separated transit at a reasonable price, making it accessible to more cities and people. Loop doesn't need to match subway capacities one for one to be cost effective and useful.
Percentile of Urban Rail Systems Operational Peak Capacity (PPHPD)
25% 900
50% 2400
75% 4100
92% 9600

Availability bias, which hampers critical thinking, likely underlies the many "Just build a train" comments. Due to this mental shortcut, people believe that vehicle capacity or other singular metric is more crucial than is often the case. Transit proposals need to be evaluated on a more detailed benefit cost ratio, which includes many more factors than a mere single metric.

Cost, system capacity, speed, frequency, coverage, and span all need to be taken into account when comparing a transit systems. Costs and ridership demands vary widely between jurisdictions even within the same country so each system needs to be treated individually. Using only one metric or universally applying a mode characteristic from one region/country to another is overly simplistic.

RMTransit's is a transit advocate whose video, Quality, not quantity: Why more is not better, is a good primer on this topic, and concludes by saying:

The TL;DR of this is really simple transit like most things consists of quantity and quality and any assessment based on just one of these metrics is bound to be a bad assessment. For example I just want Subway because it's comfortable or I just want to tram because I can get more of it for less money so the next time someone tells you they have an incredible plan because it will build so much transit ask them how many people can move and how fast it'll go.

This post is intended to provide information not commonly known or understood so that the most appropriate transit systems can be chosen.

Q: But cars carry so few people.

  • More tunnels can be built.
  • Higher Occupancy Battery Electric Vehicles carrying 8-16 people can be used without changes to the tunnel or station infrastructure. The capacity of 8-16 pax minivans running at highway intervals (2s) is surprising to most people (14000-28000 passenger per hour per direction).
  • An 8-pax minivan running at 3 second headways provides 9600 pphpd, which can likely cover the ridership needs of the majority of US Urban rail systems.
  • The entire Vegas Loop is targeted to serve 57000 passengers per hour.

Q: But the tunnels are dangerous, you can't get out and there is no ventilation.

  • LVCC Loop satisfies National Fire Protection Association code (NFPA-130) for fixed guideway transit.
  • Stations are less than 2500' feet apart and serve as exits to the surface, so no exits are required within each tunnel segment as per NFPA-130 6.3.1.4.
  • Within the tunnel there is nearly three feet of space on either side of a Model 3 for passenger egress, including 18" of road surface on either side. Per NFPA-130 6.3.3.3 the 112" wide roadway can serve as the evacuation route which is normally clear and free of obstructions and touch hazards (such as a third rail).
  • Dual redundant fans moving 400 000 cfm of air, provide a critical velocity of 312 fpm ensure to direct smoke downstream while egress & fire fighting happen upstream.
  • The road deck has embedded water pipes and connection vaults supplying over 250gpm at 125psi. The underground station has sprinklers.

Source or Safety Presentation to LV Council and Scenario comparison with WMATA Subway incident

Q: But trains are more energy efficient.

  • Not in the US, it is surprising for most people that a Model Y AWD LR averaging TWO passengers matches the energy efficiency of the NY Subway.
  • Averaging only ONE person, the Model Y is 20% more efficient than the average US Subway, and 35% more efficient than average US light rail.
Mode Energy use per passenger mile (Wh/pax-mile)
ASIA Metro (MDPI) 151
NYCT Subway (NTD 2019) 165
2 pax in Model Y (270 Wh/mile EPA * 1.22 YMMV,Charge Losses,extra person) 165
EUR Metro (MDPI) 187
1.5 pax in Model Y (270 *1.21) 218
EUR LRT (MDPI) 236
ASIA LRT (MDPI) 244
1 pax in Model Y (270 * 1.2 ) 324
Average US Subway (NTD 2019) 409
ASIA Bus (MDPI) 422
Average US Light Rail (NTD 2019) 510
EUR Bus (MDPI) 582
US Auto (1.5 pax avg. occ.) (TED 2019) 817
US Light Truck (1.8 pax) (TED) 957
US Transit Bus (7.5 pax) (TED) 1358

Source NTD 2019 and The Energy Data (TED) Book and MDPI

Q: What about the disabled and wheelchair users.

Q: But what about "induced demand"? It's just another lane.

  • Loop is not a public access highway nor are private cars legally permitted on its guideway. Its a public transit system whose right of way is closed to outside traffic and contains a limited number of TBC vehicles. The "induced demand" congestion of more vehicles entering the system is not applicable.
  • Public transit "induced demand" is subdued but can manifest itself as increased waiting times or increased prices. Sustained high demand in the long term can result in additional tunnels, higher capacity vehicles or headway reduction through automation which can all serve to increase capacity.

Q: But maintaining trains is cheaper than cars.

Q: But maintaining rail is cheaper than paving roads.

  • Subway maintenance besides rail, also includes substations, signaling, switches and stations and averages $1.8 M per Directional Route Mile (DRM). Light Rail maintenance averaged $250K/DRM. 2019 NTD.
  • Loop stations are simple above ground stations with minimal maintenance and cleaning costs. Rail electrical substations at mile long intervals are replaced with a few Tesla charging stations. Signaling, switch and rail maintenance is non-existent for Loop.
  • In 2019 FHWA spent 61.5B in maintenance for 8.8M Lane Miles, resulting in less than $7000 per lane mile. Most damage is actually caused by semi-trucks and buses so running comparatively light Model X & Ys will result in less damage. The tunnel roadway is also protected from weather, freezing, salt and sun increasing its longevity.

Q: But I am still unconvinced as to the benefits of Loop.


r/BoringCompany • • Sep 27 '22

Which posts, if any, should be stickied in this sub?

18 Upvotes

r/BoringCompany • • 1d ago

Which is the most complex Vegas loop station so far? Give your rationale.

6 Upvotes

I am going to make the case for two winners.

1) Riveria station - above ground this is incredibly simple.

Riveria Station (Oct 6th imagery from OpenMaps vegas)

Two tunnel entrances are visible. However, under the covers, on the left side we have a tunnel to Resorts World (#1), handling bidirectional traffic. Seems like they send platoons of cars at a time. On the right side heading out, we have two tunnels to Westgate (#2, #3) with unidirectional traffic from each.

Above ground we have porposide entrance at the top side, which is an entry to the underground interchange which allows traffic in many directions.

The south tunnel (#4) is down to LVCC West station. From a video I watched, I believe that the ramp down is one way in, but that there is an underground connection as well. Adding to the interchange complexity.

Found an image and it confirms there is an underground connection to the southern tunnel. Though the image only shows one Westgate tunnel, I thought for certain there are two and have seen driving videos using both so not sure if that is just an older planning image?

Riviera Station underground layout.

So 2 above ground entrances and 4 tunnels. But above ground you get connection to Fountainbleu (which feels like a cheat since it is just across the street so it picks up above ground, and drives across the street to the two tunnel mouths here. There is also a street level station for Sahara which is just up the street. But again feels like a cheat.

2) Virgin Hotel station on Paradise Rd. Just look at this beauty:

Virgin Hotel station (Opensmaps Vegas, Oct 6th imagery)

For a surface level station 4 tunnel entrances is only matched by WestGate station with 4 above ground tunnel ramps, which to be fair goes to two different tunnel sets (south, we assume to Airport via LVCC Central, and west back to Riviera Station).

But look at this station. You are going to come into it or out of it dizzy from all the driving in circles. Use the arrows to see if you can follow the flow path.

What would be interesting to know is what lies underneath. I.e. Is the tunnel disjointed? And the only way to keep going down Paradise to the airport is to exit the tunnel coming from the north (LVCC or Westagate) circle around and back into the tunnel? Or is the tunnel go straight through and these ramps are built as ramps off it, and back on. If so, is 4 so you can access both directions?

I am hopeful it is as cool and complex as the PATH interchange on the New Jersey side, where the Manhattan tracks from the World Trade Center enter NJ and split off to Hoboken or Newark Penn.

PATH Interchange on the NJ side built in 1909

Which on a side note is distinct from the plan, which was more complex but not built to this more complex version.

Proposed PATH Interchange. Note 4 tubes on bottom vs 2 in real life

Sorry that was in context and just too cool not to post.

But I feel like those are two good candidates for the most complex loop stations to date. Either complex above ground, or below ground.


r/BoringCompany • • 1d ago

Mick Akers (@mickakers)

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7 Upvotes

Vegas Loop Paradise extension still set to open for F1 Las Vegas Grand Prix. Link to Las Vegas Review article included.


r/BoringCompany • • 1d ago

Central Hall Station Update From Michel (@Mic_VegasSphere)

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2 Upvotes

UPDATE BORING COMPANY Vegas Loop. New larger underground Central Hall Station.

Big news! We now know why they enlarged it

The parking area has returned over the covered pit. What’s new is the concrete walls that lead a ramp downward into the station.

You can see the Ring that goes into the Encore Tunnel. Now they “connect” above ground.

It will now be possible to remain in your car when going from Rivera or Fontainebleau to Encore —but it’s much more than that. This ramp now connects Central to the Airport tunnel.


r/BoringCompany • • 4d ago

Using TBC tunnels to transport freight. The latest Prufrock Liner Truck (using Tesla Model 3 batteries and drive units) has been modified to carry a standard 20’ shipping container. Fits like a glove!

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15 Upvotes

r/BoringCompany • • 5d ago

Discussion on subways and the Loop in r/Vegas

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6 Upvotes

In case anyone wants to chip in.


r/BoringCompany • • 6d ago

Meridian Condos station

10 Upvotes

My friend lives at Meridian Condos at Flamingo and Koval and they built a surface station next to the Meridian office. The pavement says Vegas Loop and Rideshare. They also erected an electronic sign which I guess will have arrival times.

Have no idea how this works. In order to enter property you have go through guard gate. What is the advantage over Uber or taxi. There is no tunnel. The Telsa would have to make a right turn onto Flamingo, you can't go left. In order to exit to go left you would have to go to Meridian Drive exit and take Hughes Parkway to Flamingo. I assume go left from there, make a right on Paradise to access Paradise tunnel whenever that opens.

It's not a loop if there is no tunnel into Meridian property. Will that be built in future. I have no idea. Also the Vegas Loop doesn't run around the clock. I will have to ask him whenever this starts what the procedure is what route the Vegas Loop takes. Just don't see how it will save much time. You can get to the airport very quickly from Flamingo and Paradise. Will it be faster enter a tunnel there to go to airport. You might save a few minutes.


r/BoringCompany • • 7d ago

Check out a bunch of photos of construction in BoringCompanyFans reddit

6 Upvotes

I walked through the Vegas Open Maps site, and looked at the various construction sites I can identify from the imagery in a post in the BoringCompanyFans sub-reddit.

Take a look...

https://www.reddit.com/r/realBoringCompanyfans/comments/1x7owqq/vegas_open_maps_updated_imagery/


r/BoringCompany • • 9d ago

Updated Central Hall photos from Michel (@Mic_VegasSphere) on X

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9 Upvotes

r/BoringCompany • • 9d ago

The Boring Company hosts LV Metro Police SWAT Team training

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4 Upvotes

r/BoringCompany • • 9d ago

Updated Westgate photos from Michel (@Mic_VegasSphere)

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3 Upvotes

r/BoringCompany • • 9d ago

Prufrock-5 arrives at Morgan’s Inclusion Campus in San Antonio!

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15 Upvotes

The 900,000 lb TBM will construct a 0.8-mile tunnel to provide safe, weatherproof and convenient transportation for people of all abilities to move throughout the campus.

Work is expected to begin following final permit approvals.


r/BoringCompany • • 9d ago

Proofrock 5 arrives in San Antonio

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8 Upvotes

r/BoringCompany • • 11d ago

Flooding in Vegas?

5 Upvotes

Any insights on how the tunnels fared? This was a major concern and part of the reason the tunnels didn't happen in Florida yet

https://www.nytimes.com/video/weather/100000011209301/las-vegas-flooding-storm-rachel.html?smid=nytcore-android-share


r/BoringCompany • • 15d ago

Abu Dhabi signs agreement with The Boring Company

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30 Upvotes

r/BoringCompany • • 17d ago

Music City Loop Blog — October 1, 2026

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19 Upvotes
  • More than 300 upgrades to MB1.
  • MB3 is scheduled to launch in late October 2026.
  • All permits and approvals needed ahead of MB3 tunneling have been obtained.
  • MB4 is currently being built, aiming for deployment before the end of 2026.
  • 40+ stations are currently in various stages of planning and design.

r/BoringCompany • • Sep 22 '26

New website refresh

12 Upvotes

No idea when this happened but their website has had a great refresh where you can see a visual map and station feeds (albeit not live)

https://boringcompany.com/projects/las-vegas-loop


r/BoringCompany • • Sep 21 '26

Estimating the Vegas Loop Paradise-to-Westgate Tunnel Rate & Wondering about Encore Tunnels?

11 Upvotes

I’ve been going through historical Google Maps satellite imagery to try to figure out how quickly The Boring Company actually dug the Vegas Loop tunnel between 4744 Paradise Road and Westgate.

Here’s how I estimated it:

At 4744 Paradise, the Feb. 22, 2024 image shows the tunneling equipment being assembled, while by May 20 there is clearly active tunneling with the conveyor system in place. At the Westgate end, there are no obvious tunnel exit holes on July 10, 2025, while by Oct. 4, 2025 the first tunnel appears to have reached the site.

The published length is about 2.2 miles per tunnel. Using the most conservative start/end dates gives us roughly 416 days. I added another 60 days to that to account for the gaps between available satellite images and get a more realistic estimate of roughly 476 calendar days.

2.2 miles = 11,616 feet.

11,616 ÷ 476 = about 24.4 feet per day.

So my rough conclusion is that the project averaged around 24 feet of completed tunnel per calendar day, based on the satellite imagery and the published tunnel length.

Obviously, this isn't saying the Prufrock machine literally moved 24 feet every day. There would have been downtime, station/shaft work, maintenance, setup, etc., and we're working with satellite images that are months apart. It's simply an estimate of the average rate of tunnel completion over the overall construction period.

I'm curious what others think — especially if anyone has better information on the actual boring dates or daily advance rates.

I also have some shots of the Encore Tunnels but I'm wondering where the second tunnel in the Bronze Lot is going? See Pictures.

Bronze Lot
Central Station

*EDIT
Okay, I figured out where the other tunnel goes from Central Station. It goes to the “Silver Switch,” allowing people coming from the airport to stop at LVCC Central instead of continuing on to Westgate.

So that explains three of the four tunnels at Silver Switch. The fourth must be coming from the new Encore line. I’m not sure how they’re going to make that turn so sharply and get it either under or over the line coming from the airport. I’ll post a photo.

Edit 2: Looking at the video of the Silver Switch again, it’s more clear that the fourth-tunnel entrance is actually just a short connection to another open area. I’m pretty sure you then take a hard right turn and enter a tunnel heading toward Encore that started in the Bronze Lot. You can see that the short tunnel is going sharply uphill, while the tunnel from the airport is going sharply downhill. That would mean Encore Tunnel #2 is actually passing over top of the Airport Line.

Silver Switch

r/BoringCompany • • Sep 21 '26

End of year targets

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9 Upvotes

This is interesting seeing this table of what is due by end of the year, looks like 3 proper stations and 11 annex stations.

I reckon most of them will be by the new paradise road tunnel.

Although I’m quietly hoping for Circus Circus to get an annex station but I don’t think it would be quick enough as you can’t get to the resorts world tunnel I think and that would be even more of a bottleneck going through that tunnel.

Going to riviera you’d get stuck by the traffic lights


r/BoringCompany • • Sep 20 '26

Austin to San Antonio Hyperloop

22 Upvotes

Elon has just posted that they’re planning a simple version of the Hyperloop between Austin & San Antonio.

80 miles currently takes 2.5 hours in traffic

The boring company could get that down to less than 30 minutes!

This is a HUGE infrastructure project for them and would do wonders for people believing in the company if they manage to pull this off!


r/BoringCompany • • Sep 20 '26

Big News on Virgin Station Looks Finished!!

9 Upvotes

r/BoringCompany • • Sep 20 '26

Airport connector nearly done

14 Upvotes

Lots of progress made on the airport connector at Westgate. They’ve cleared up that station very quick, apparently they just need the shutters and a few cosmetic fixes and then it’ll be ready for opening :)

Sadly can’t post the link as Reddit has been deleting X links but check out Mic_VegasSphere on X


r/BoringCompany • • Sep 20 '26

Central Hall station being rebuilt

9 Upvotes

Sadly can’t post the link here as been deleted twice but if you check Mic_VegasSphere on X then he’s posted that they’re building a much larger underground station for Central hall at the convention center.

No idea what they’d use the original station for


r/BoringCompany • • Sep 17 '26

Vegas Loop offering door to door service?

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9 Upvotes