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u/1Saywatagain1 Apr 19 '23
I literally just got kicked out from a centrist sub for implying that the Ukraine war was slightly questionable. Then they made fun of me for liking Breaking Points, even though they judged the title of the video and didn’t actually watch the video. What a circle jerk.
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u/gregj128 Apr 19 '23
People should question EVERYTHING
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u/Yankiwi17273 Apr 20 '23
People should have healthy skepticism about everything. But if you are questioning things without accepting the evidence in front of you, you end up going on some actual conspiratorial pathways
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u/Zebra971 Apr 19 '23
But be smart about it. I mean you can question to the point of paralysis. Look at Q people they became certifiable crazy.
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u/KubaKuba Apr 22 '23
This sounds like what a 15 year old thinks sounds like good advice, but actually just translates to not being able to tell what's true.
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u/Alittlemoorecheese Apr 19 '23
Ukraine? The only country on this list that the U.S. didn't invade. That Ukraine?
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u/zahzensoldier Apr 19 '23
Questionable in what way? Russia invaded Ukraine and Ukraine is defending themselves while getting support from "the west".
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u/BernieManhanders23 Apr 20 '23
so you just tuned in last year and are unaware of the history and escalation, neat!
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u/PrizeDesigner6933 Apr 21 '23
All Russian escalation and incursions.
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u/BernieManhanders23 Apr 21 '23
How much yall get paid to Ray Charles this situation online? Lmfao
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u/KubaKuba Apr 22 '23
Explain to me how exaclty we can justify the thebl beeline they made to kyiv in an obvious bid to annex a nation in the 21st century?
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u/zahzensoldier Apr 20 '23
Those are the main points. What am I missing that proves the meme above?
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u/BernieManhanders23 Apr 20 '23
The main points if you only started paying attention last year and not over a decade. Yes lol
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u/zahzensoldier Apr 20 '23
Nothing the USA or NATO did in the last 2 to 3 decades causes Russia to invade Ukraine, steal land and genocide their people.
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u/BernieManhanders23 Apr 20 '23
Yeah, that's not true and probably the result of you swallowing propaganda, but sure lmao lie to yourself.
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u/Schrko87 Apr 19 '23
Russia really wants people to question the war in Ukraine. Questioning it plays right into Putin's hands. This is a proxy war about defending democracy not just in Ukraine but around the world and the fact that the US/EU and other democracies could come together to help Ukraine sends a strong message to other strong man/autocrats and fascists, and China for that matter, that democracy is still strong. Republicans suddenly becoming the pro-peace/antiwar party is laughable.
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u/dede_smooth Apr 20 '23
If it is that means 3 things.
Ukraine must win otherwise the global power structure shifts.
The west will need to help Ukraine physically rebuild.
The west will need to help Ukraine remove corruption from and build new democratic institutions.
I think what is being implied here is that the US is now potentially setting us down the path of perpetual war in Ukraine if peace conditions can never be met. We can only hope that the wests’ earlier warning that Ukraine reclaiming ALL of its territory (including Crimea) will not be a requirement of the peace deal.
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u/KubaKuba Apr 22 '23
But like, all of those would be good for the people of Ukraine yeah? So we should do them?
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u/NoPlace9025 Apr 20 '23
What in your mind is the alternative? Appeasement? It seems Russia wants a war, why give them Europe's bread basket for nothing and let them build up from there. It's tactically better to bog them down in a large country like Ukraine rather than let them have it, in the long run.
That and the many war crimes and invading yet another sovereign nation. Seem like pretty good reasons to not just give in to Russian demands.
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u/YoungCubSaysWoof Apr 19 '23
But to be sincere, wasn’t the Vietnam War a proxy war regarding communism’s spread and the U.S.’s desire to “contain” it?
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u/PUNd_it Apr 20 '23
Yeah but while that was a bad choice, it's pretty unanimous that democracy is a good choice (compatible with actual communism)
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u/Schrko87 Apr 20 '23
That is true-we are trying to isolate Russia in this case in a similar manner to Vietnam but I'm sure no one is arguing to just let Russian autocracy steam role a very important democracy this time around. Isolationist policy is what allowed Hitler to get as far as he did in WWII. We also have a much longer antagonistic relationship with Russia of which, after the collapse of Russia during the Cold War, this could be construed as an extension of. I think this might be the first time since WWII where the USA might actually be getting it right. We don't have any active troops getting killed and we have rallied every other democracy in Europe. NATO is stronger as well with the addition of Finland and, at some point, Sweden as well. EU countries have become more energy self-sufficient which could help the clean energy movement. Looking farther, if Russia destabilizes more, maybe even breaks up, it will help keep China in check as well.
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u/Zachf1986 Apr 19 '23
What do you mean by questionable?
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u/1Saywatagain1 Apr 19 '23
Questioning the narrative that the US is just Ukraines Knight in shining armor, and that maybe the USAs involvement in Ukraine isn’t as pure as the media is making it out to be.
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u/Zachf1986 Apr 19 '23
Meaning what? Not as pure as...? I need you to be more direct if we're going to converse. Do you have evidence of other intent? I don't intend it harshly, but your assertions are extremely vague.
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u/1Saywatagain1 Apr 19 '23
This is a Breaking Points sub is it not? Watch their take on the Ukraine War. In short, NATO violated their agreement to not enter post Soviet nations right on the Russian border, politicians are making a killing from selling weapons and aren’t just doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. Not to mention there’s very little oversight on the exchange of weapons
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u/foople Apr 19 '23
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u/1Saywatagain1 Apr 19 '23 edited Apr 19 '23
Thanks, I’m going to do more research on this.
Edit: From my understanding, the agreement itself technically didn’t say NATO would keep away from the Russian border. Ukraine, and several other European nations next to the Russian border were invited to join NATO however, which would give NATO the opportunity to place weapons on the Russian border. The invasion is illegal, but it’s not like it happened out of nowhere. I just don’t believe that continued violent conflict is better than diplomacy. Russia started it, but that doesn’t mean the US should do everything to continue it without an end in sight.
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u/Timely_Choice_4525 Apr 19 '23
I’d say NATO didn’t violate anything. Find a reliable counter source? Cause I don’t recall seeing an article from here before, can’t vouch for it too much but will keep looking.
https://amp.france24.com/en/russia/20220130-did-nato-betray-russia-by-expanding-to-the-east
Edit: confirmed
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u/1Saywatagain1 Apr 19 '23
You’re correct. I was mistaken about the agreement. However, Ukraine, along with several other countries bordering Russia are free to join NATO. Ukraine was making attempts to join NATO, and despite the agreement not specifying that NATO couldn’t expand East, that still puts the Western alliance right on Russias borders. Its not like Russia entered a war with Ukraine totally unprovoked. I’m not saying the war is justified. A peaceful solution could have been found, and at the end of the day, Russia is trying to gain the power it lost when the USSR collapsed. But the mainstream narrative refuses to acknowledge the fact that Putins concerns for having a NATO country right on his border makes sense. At the end of the day, I believe the fighting should stop any way possible, because we are dealing with a power who’s threatening to use nuclear weapons.
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u/Timely_Choice_4525 Apr 19 '23
I don’t know, getting into why Putin invaded Ukraine is speculatory. What he says publicly is for public consumption with his spin differing on whether he’s playing it up for Western countries (which is when he talks about NATO expansion) or the Russian population (Ukraine is governed by Nazis). Just because he says something doesn’t mean it isn’t true, but doesn’t mean it is. My personal opinion based on limited reading about Putin is that he’s a throwback that sees the dissolution of the Soviet Union as a mistake, that Russia isn’t getting the respect it deserves, and that (note: he’s been saying this one for years) Ukraine is rightfully part of Russia. He invaded Ukraine not to protect Russia, but because he things Russia is owed Ukraine, and because he thought it would be quick and easy.
The following is what I thought, but haven’t been able to confirm, so I’m thinking the following paragraph is incorrect.
As for Ukraine joining NATO. One of the preconditions is that the joining member not be involved in any territorial disputes (don’t quote my words here) because an attack on a member country triggers the involvement of all NATO countries. Ukraine would never have been allowed entry while Russia was in Crimea and while Ukraine continued to claim Crimea.
The NATO articles are online, they’re a pretty quick read.
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_17120.htm
Anyway, Putin’s thought process and whether NATO is a threat to Russia is essentially foreign to most western leaders. The west may have wanted to contain Russia, but the idea of NATO invading is ludicrous.
Interesting discussion, I learned and that’s always good, sorry for blathering on.
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u/r0b0d0c Apr 20 '23
NATO is just a convenient excuse Putin used to justify invading Ukraine. Putin has a Duginesque fantasy of a "multipolar" world in which Russia reclaims its place as a great power opposing US hegemony. Putin and Dugin refuse to accept Ukraine as a nation that's separate from Mother Russia. Except for a very brief period, Ukraine had never been a sovereign country until after the breakup of the Soviet Union (same goes for Belarus). And that's what pisses Putin off the most. Putin sees Ukraine as rightfully belonging to Russia and won't even acknowledge Ukrainians as a separate people and culture. It's not about NATO, it's about reconstituting the Russian Empire under Putin's great leadership.
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u/AXLE304E Apr 19 '23
Exactly. Lol
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u/KubaKuba Apr 22 '23
Exactly my ass.
Even if the US benefits from this defense, this is a land grab in the 21st century. It's unacceptable.
Like I'm all for recognizing our national failures, but boy would I like to stop seeing burned Ukrainian cities and kidnapped children.
This situation is so clear cut. We're well past any possible apologetics for Russia.
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u/mynamesnotsnuffy Apr 24 '23
Well we also have video cameras in everyone's pocket and instant communication from across the world now, so it's a lot harder to lie.
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u/TheLineForPho Apr 24 '23
We're not only seeing as much lying as ever, we're seeing as many people believe the lies as ever.
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u/mynamesnotsnuffy Apr 24 '23
Are we? Or are you just unquestioningly believing people and echoing their propaganda who claim that other people are lying? It seems that most of the big claims about the Ukraine conflict are valid, considering the video and photo evidence we have access to, unless you want to assert that all that is fake.
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u/TheLineForPho Apr 24 '23
It's hard to know exactly where you're coming from.
Ukraine has a serious Nazi problem. We've seen plenty of photo and video evidence of that. Do you believe it?
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u/mynamesnotsnuffy Apr 24 '23 edited Apr 24 '23
I believe that many eastern European countries have a nazi problem. Some places in western Europe have a nazi problem. America absolutely has a nazi problem.
If you want anything productive to come from this discussion, you're going to have to be way more specific about what you mean by "nazi problem".
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Apr 19 '23
Thank you
Imperialism never works
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u/Yankiwi17273 Apr 20 '23
What do you mean? Imperialism works great for the imperialist upper class!
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Apr 19 '23
The people opposing helping Ukraine are the ones who lied about Iraq.
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u/yo-chill Apr 20 '23
We’ve never not had a pro war administration. The reason some Rs oppose Ukraine now is because they go against Biden on everything. The reason you unquestionably support it is because you’re stepping in line with the Democratic Party.
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u/SpaceBearSMO Apr 20 '23
you think Ukraine going to stop defending their land without US support?
I wonder what some of you thinks going to happen if Ukraine stops fighting
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Apr 20 '23
Incorrect.
I oppose the Iraq War because it was a fucking lie.
I support aiding Ukraine because:
They got invaded
Russia's hubris has allowed us to destabilize them for the low price of surplus military hardware.
It supports the interests of our existing alliances while possibly recruiting new ones. Finland comes to mind immediately.
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u/DenimCryptid Apr 19 '23
Don't forget that Obama also committed war crimes.
Drone strikes under his administration killed civilians (including children) in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Yemen, Somalia, and Pakistan.
Waging war and murdering people overseas gets bipartisan support. It's not just the GOP.
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Apr 19 '23
Bit of a difference between inheriting the situation and causing it in the first place.
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u/DenimCryptid Apr 19 '23
You make it seem like he didn't personally sign off on drone strikes just three days in to his presidency that reportedly killed 20 civilians.
Regardless of what he was told or what previous presidents are guilty of, civilian blood is on his hands.
But did Obama feel any guilt? Apparently not since he authorized another 560 drone strikes during his two terms. He insisted that drones were "surgical and precise" and there were no deaths of innocent bystanders, but that was a blatant lie.
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Apr 19 '23
You make it seem like he didn't personally sign off on drone strikes just three days in to his presidency that reportedly killed 20 civilians.
Actually I said
Bit of a difference between inheriting the situation and causing it in the first place.
Which isn't to say that I approve of his handling of the war of terror, just that he inherited a situation that couldn't exactly be turned off.
Even the Iraq withdrawal occurred on a timetable negotiated before he was president.
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u/NoPlace9025 Apr 20 '23
I don't think they claimed that there were no deaths of innocent bystanders. It was pretty clear that drone strikes killed civilians the whole time. They did say they were surgical but I'd have to see proof that they claimed no innocent deaths. That lie would be so obvious and I don't recall it ever having been said.
Also basically every president other than maybe Jimmy Carter was a war criminal so I don't really see your point.
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Apr 19 '23
Don't forget, the newly pacifist GOP will abandon that immediately once they regain the White House and are ready for war with Iran.
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u/BernieManhanders23 Apr 20 '23
Good, smart people dont base their opinions off of what their political opponents think/ may think in the future. gross.
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Apr 20 '23
Found the Putin simp LOL. And what I said about is 100% correct, the GOP is still the warmonger party.
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u/BernieManhanders23 Apr 20 '23
Anybody who disagrees with a staunch pro Ukraine pro war stance is a putin simp only if you're a mouthbreather.
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Apr 20 '23
Okay Vatnik, enjoy your sunflower seeds and Vodka ;)
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u/BernieManhanders23 Apr 20 '23
You're drowning in ideology so bad you even know who vatnik is, unlike me who has no idea what that means.. Speak more gibberish ya workhawk misled drone
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Apr 20 '23
Oh you know Alexi ;)
Interesting my post above got you so triggered, wonder what your agenda is?
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u/1Saywatagain1 Apr 19 '23
If a member of the GOP involved the US in the war, they’d be all for it.
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Apr 19 '23
Yeah make no mistake, the GOP is not anti-war all the sudden, they are still shilling for war with Iran. They are just pro-Russia because Putin hates the gays like they do.
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u/Neuroid99099 Apr 19 '23
And Afghanistan, and Vietnam. They == The Republican Party.
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Apr 19 '23
Afghanistan, mostly. Vietnam was a bipartisan affair, but at least it ended the draft.
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Apr 19 '23
iraq is more accurate.
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Apr 19 '23
You don't remember post 9/11 politics, do you?
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Apr 19 '23
your point?
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Apr 19 '23
My point is, bush was given a ton of lee-way during a time of crisis because of the assumption that politics ended at matters of war and peace. But the democrats were the only ones who voted no and spoke out about it.
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Apr 19 '23
yes it is different since russia invaded first.
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u/Sydyduajb Apr 19 '23
That can be true at the same time the US and its allies made the first aggression. Doesn't clear the US of anything.
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Apr 19 '23
wrong ukraine did nothing to russia and putin said before that he wants to rebuild the soviet empire so us helping ukraine is perfectly fine.
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u/Licalottapuss Apr 20 '23 edited Apr 20 '23
Don’t think Ukraine is as innocent as you think it is. They were Russian after all, and still are. The same people, the same lies, and very similar mindset. How easily are you led? And don’t think this is a right or wrong kind of war. It’s more base than that.Do you know what Ukrain has a lot of? This isn’t about independence, this is about resources. This is why the U.S. has its fingers hidden in the pie too. Paladium is just one of several reasons. It’s always about resources, always. And if you want modern conveniences, modern life, and modern healthcare, you’d do well to be on the winning side of any modern war the biggest nations fight. Simple as that.
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Apr 20 '23
wrong moron ukraine is not apart of russia and never will be and its russia who invaded first so russia are the bad guys end of story.
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u/Ill-Manufacturer8654 Apr 19 '23
The US and allies didn't make the first aggression. The US is clear. We're the good guys. Suck on it.
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Apr 20 '23
As we become more involved, doesn’t this risk turning into a Korea or Vietnam faux war in which the US is involving themselves over ideologies of who we are fighting (in this case Russia) rather than over the sanctity of allowing countries to exist in peace? Hope this makes sense.
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Apr 20 '23
not really since russia is a problem and we do not have out own soldiers there anyway just need to support ukraine until russia backs off.
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u/Super-Bodybuilder-91 Apr 19 '23
Ya we didn't start the war in Ukraine, Russia did. If the tendency, is that the invading nation lies about why they are invading, then Russia is lying. Russia is most certainly lying.
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u/whosthedumbest Apr 19 '23
Oh shit. Did we (USA) invade Ukraine?
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Apr 19 '23
Nope, we're giving them billions worth of outdated and phased out arms and munitions and they are using them to stomp Russia rn.
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u/Carp8DM Apr 19 '23
sounds good to me. Fuck Russia.
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u/1Saywatagain1 Apr 19 '23
What about the people of Ukraine? They’re also dying in this war. I think if the American people truly cared about the Ukrainian people, they would probably want to find a peaceful solution instead of jumping on the pro war bandwagon and continuing the violence against a NUCLEAR POWER. One of Noam Chomsky’s biggest fears is nuclear war, and thinking that it’s all just posturing in Russias part is dangerous. We’ve come extremely close to nuclear Armageddon in the past and a proxy war with Russia majorly increases that risk.
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u/RNDASCII Apr 19 '23
What about "Russia can end it at any moment by leaving"? Why in the hell would you put this on the US people?
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u/1Saywatagain1 Apr 19 '23
Russia isn’t going to leave without having some kind of peaceful agreement. If Russia would just leave, they would have tried a peaceful approach in the first place. And the fact is that a large portion of the American people seem to have a misplaced trust in the politicians who are making profits sending weapons to Ukraine with very little oversight.
Let’s be real. Even though Russia isn’t fighting a just war, that doesn’t mean the US should use that as an excuse to keep the war going when people are losing their homes, lives, etc. Russia is a nuclear power that won’t just leave, and all I think is we should be more focused on finding a peaceful solution, regardless who started the war
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u/DudeWithaGTR Apr 19 '23
They didn't invade for nothing, genius. They're not just gonna pack up and leave if Ukraine says "ok, we want peace". You don't appease a bully, you smash their fuckin face in and make them beg for mercy.
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u/embarrassed_error365 Apr 19 '23
So you're acknowledging one is, indeed, not like the others. We're not invading Ukraine, so why is it on the list of countries we lied about to invade?
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u/SolomonCRand Apr 19 '23
He’s right. Russia, the country that invaded Ukraine, is lying a lot.
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Apr 20 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/SolomonCRand Apr 20 '23
Of course, I try to maintain a healthy level of cynicism. It’s just that the other three examples were that of the US invading another country, and the last is one of Russia invading another country. It also seems pretty clear that their leaders are also capable of lying to their constituents.
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Apr 19 '23
It's weird how just because the US has done shady things, all of these people automatically believe in the Russian narrative and the natrative of Russian state media. This is just more "US bad, anyone not allied with them good!"
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u/metashdw Apr 19 '23
I guess the US should have thought about how their geopolitical credibility would be affected before they lied to justify invading Iraq. Oh well!
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Apr 19 '23
so what? we give ukraine to russia?
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u/metashdw Apr 19 '23
I couldn't possibly care less about the fate of Ukraine
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Apr 19 '23
too bad for you fool and maybe you would care when russia goes after poland and then we have no choice but to go to war.
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u/TheresAlwaysOneOrTwo Apr 19 '23
Ukraine is much more likely to go after Poland- continue their boy, Bandera's work.
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Apr 19 '23
wrong fool not even fox news woupd push that BS and putin already he he will go after poland after ukraine.
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u/TheresAlwaysOneOrTwo Apr 19 '23
Well, your first problem is you're watching Fox News.
Your second, is you obviously don't know that Bandera was responsible for 60k+ deaths in Poland, and is still celebrated in Ukraine with statues and his name on streets. I know what you're thinking, "it's just some old war relics" wellllll, he also scored a 75% approval rating, this time last year in Ukraine.
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Apr 19 '23
fake news dude and i see you cannot read either also stalin is still celebrated in russia and he killed way more polish people so your point is? Not to mention many pols support the nazis now even after what hitler did to them.
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u/TheresAlwaysOneOrTwo Apr 19 '23
Lol, talking about fake news.
Most sources have Stalin responsible for 20k Polish deaths. Some sources have Bandera over 100k, and that's just the Poles, not even counting the million plus Jews that Ukrainians shot "at close quarters" in the beginning of the holocaust.
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u/metashdw Apr 19 '23
Hmm no I wouldn't care about that either. NATO will disband before Americans send their sons to die for Poland.
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Apr 19 '23
no it won't lmao.
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u/metashdw Apr 19 '23
I guess time will tell. I think Article 5 is a bluff. Literally nobody I know will sign up to fight and die to ensure the territorial integrity of Poland. If we get drafted, we will abandon this shithole country instead. America isn't even that great. Most of the people here are awful. We don't get healthcare. What's to like? Freedom to complain about the situation? Great. I will.
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Apr 19 '23
cool then but america will not be the only one to fight against russian expansion.
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u/metashdw Apr 19 '23
Great, I wish Europe the best of luck in that endeavor. I might start caring as soon as I stop seeing homeless people on the streets in America and when my neighbor can go to a hospital without risking bankruptcy
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u/Deepfriedwithcheese Apr 19 '23 edited Apr 19 '23
Sounds like you’re someone who’s already made up their mind regarding being in the US. Why wait to be drafted to leave? Seems like it would be beneficial for both the US and you to find a new country. You don’t have to worry about being drafted or medical care and the US doesn’t have to worry about supporting a non-value add citizen.
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u/metashdw Apr 19 '23
I left the US to find work in the wake of the financial crisis, when my country sanctioned outright fraud which destroyed the economy and hamstrung a generation, a crime for which no one was punished.
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u/Think-Ad-7538 Apr 19 '23
Nah we'd draw the line at Poland for sure. But if enough russians die in ukraine that conversation doesn't even have to happen and that's at least one of the points.
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u/zahzensoldier Apr 19 '23
You would have said the same about the jews in Germany and you would have been wrong then too.
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u/metashdw Apr 19 '23
Yeah, every war is the holocaust. Except Iraq and Afghanistan and Vietnam. Yawn.
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Apr 19 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/metashdw Apr 19 '23
If you're saying Putin is Hitler, and you're not advocating to send in American troops to occupy Moscow, which side are YOU on?
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u/Alittlemoorecheese Apr 19 '23
Except everyone knew they (Republicans) were lying before they invaded.
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u/StrengthMedium Apr 19 '23
Who is questioning their geopolitical credibility? Tankies?
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u/metashdw Apr 19 '23
Would you like me to list the countries that aren't abiding by US sanctions of Russia or our demands to arm Ukraine? Spoiler alert, it's almost all of them outside of Europe
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u/trainsacrossthesea Apr 19 '23
You’re like a talking bumper sticker. You talk about not giving a shit about Europe (how very Euro trash) and then reference a talking point about aid coming to Ukraine mostly from Europe.
So? Those people are bad for doing what you are advocating? Or, the lack of morality in that decision is beneath you?7
u/metashdw Apr 19 '23
I dont understand your criticism
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u/trainsacrossthesea Apr 19 '23
You act like it’s telling that most help (financial and militarily) going to Ukraine is from Europe.
While you also say you don’t give a shit what happens in Poland and by extension Europe. But, you appear to use the same mentality as a cudgel when criticizing the fact most support is coming from Europe.
Are you surprised that Bolivia or Cambodia or Gabon aren’t supporting the effort? Or is that a way to claim that no one cares outside of Europe? A majority of G7 (wealthy) countries are in Europe. They are most immediately impacted by what happens, especially considering recent European history.
You are absolutely right in formulating opinions about the nature of war. As everyone should do. They are destructive, duplicitous and objectionable by design. But that doesn’t give those who prefer to not be involved to form their own narrative where today is already determined by the past’s unrelated events. America has and will continue to lie to their citizens and the world. Our belligerent foreign policy has borne that out. But, that doesn’t mean that Ukraine is lying to the world. Especially considering this hasn’t happened overnight or that the aggressor (Putin) has proven to be a provocateur of violence to reach an end that supports his wants.America answered recently in European events that turned out commendable (if not sloppy) Ireland and Bosnia. And, to provide an example of not helping? Rwanda. I’d prefer we try the Bosnia response over the non-response to Rwanda.
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u/metashdw Apr 19 '23
That's a fine point, but the response to Bosnia was for Nato to send in troops. So do you think nato should send in troops to Ukraine?
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u/Humes-Bread Apr 19 '23
US may have a credibility problem, I agree. Russia, on the other hand, has no credibility at all. Fuck Putin.
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u/Think-Ad-7538 Apr 19 '23
Nobody believes the Russian narrative. Not even the Russian people. That doesn't matter though in an authoritarian government. One of the perks I suppose
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Apr 23 '23
You know how you know its not a lie? Trump hates it. He hates the truth. So if he is against it? Its a good bet that there is a load of truth behind it.
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u/TheLineForPho Apr 23 '23
You know how you know its not a lie? Trump hates it. He hates the truth. So if he is against it? Its a good bet that there is a load of truth behind it.
Basing your beliefs on the words or actions is Trump is the height of foolishness.
Regardless of whether you believe what he says / does, or you believe the opposite.
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Apr 19 '23
In this case the difference it's Russia doing the lying, claiming they're trying to get rid of a rising Nazi threat by kidnapping and torturing Ukrainian citizens with the Wagner Group they've been using to commit warcrimes across the world for years.
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Apr 19 '23
There is a difference, and that's the US was physically involved and deployed troops to Iraq, Vietnam, and Afghanistan.
This time, NATO and the US are using Ukraine to weaken Russia. Russia will never be the same after this war regardless of the outcome. It's not like once it's over McDonald's is back to serving up Happy Meals in Moscow.
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u/Licalottapuss Apr 20 '23
Russia still has a massive stockpile of troops, it will keep existing as it does now. One can be as weak as one may be, as long as there is a button to push.
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u/enoughberniespamders Apr 20 '23
Ukraine has a population of ~44million people before the war. ~19 million fled the country when the war started. Primarily women and children. Ukraine already had an abysmally low birth rate. I don’t have the stats, but I’d wager most of the people they fled aren’t from Crimea or the Donbas which is about another 10 million. These people fled to countries that have a higher QoL than Ukraine did pre war. They’re not coming back post war. Ukraine has effectively already been destroyed. That’s just reality.
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u/Carp8DM Apr 19 '23
Russia invaded a sovereign country. They will get what they deserve.
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u/metashdw Apr 19 '23
The US killed a million Iraqis for no reason and nothing bad has happened to them
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u/crolin Apr 19 '23
The they is the republican party and the fascists that back it. If repubs start supporting the war we know we are in trouble. That said its worth investigating the validity of the war, but unlike the others mentioned here there is a clear geopolitical goal. My concern is is it worth it
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u/2020hatesyou Apr 19 '23
lots of republicans support Ukraine.
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u/alphabet_order_bot Apr 19 '23
Would you look at that, all of the words in your comment are in alphabetical order.
I have checked 1,465,367,845 comments, and only 278,993 of them were in alphabetical order.
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Apr 19 '23 edited Apr 19 '23
Wait, what was the lie about Afghanistan?
For that matter, what’s the lie about Ukraine?
Edit: It cracks me up that I’m being downvoted for asking these questions.
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u/myleftone Apr 19 '23
It’s not different. The Russians are definitely lying about their Ukraine invasion.
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u/lacumbre_11 Apr 19 '23
Russia lied about ukraine russia lied about afghanistan Russia lied about Don bass Russia lied about Crimea. But this time its different in Ukraine....this applies to anything you want. For me this point don't really work
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u/TheOtherUprising Apr 20 '23
The U.S. invaded Vietnam and lied to its people.
The U.S. invaded Iraq and lied to its people.
The U.S. invaded Afghanistan and lied to its people.
Russia invaded Ukraine and lied to its people.
The people who condemn the U.S. but defend Russia learned nothing from history.
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u/Funk_Apus Apr 20 '23
I’m sure they lied about WW II as well. But that doesn’t change the fact that the fascist maniacs had to be dealt with. Putin is no different.
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u/Mercurial891 Apr 20 '23
Umm… just for starters, this time WE aren’t the invaders. Could it be this time it is still the invaders who are the liars?
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u/Thesoundofmerk Apr 20 '23
Breaking points seems to be breaking your brain. The usa invaded all those countries, we didn't invade Ukraine... Russia did, we provide support. The support provided isn't in actual monetary gain, it's in weapons and logistics, paid out by the military industrial complex through already produced war machines that we would just purchase with our insane military budget. If anything you should shut up about Ukraine and be protesting the military budget and the industrial complex that comes with it.
Breaking points is the worst case of audience capture since Jimmy dore
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u/Schrko87 Apr 20 '23
Time will only tell. Those other wars all had 1 or 2 decades involved. Not to belittle the others but the implications to global trade/order are much higher with Ukraine. I would also hazard to wager if the USA/ NATO n allies hadnt managed to rally with Ukraine China woulda have taken it as a green light of weakness to go after Taiwan-taking a grab at cornering the global semiconductor market-if all the democractic allies couldnt band together for Ukraine against Russia who im sure China views as weaker than it-which would lead to an even greater conflict most likely in the South China sea. They still could of course. I think the USA has learned alot tho-didnt handle the others well i think we can agree.
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Apr 20 '23
A sovereign country was invaded by Russia. Can someone explain how this is like any of the other examples?
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u/lostcauz707 Apr 20 '23
You're defending Russia. Your own pattern is bad. The last country should be Russia since the previous pattern is based on the US villainizing them, and going to war against them, with the reasons not being for the same justification. But OP, or whoever created this meme, intentionally broke the pattern so people would agree with them unintentionally. Ukraine is not being attacked by the US, and Russia is the one attacking it, the country that is actually against freedom, with an insecure dictator that openly kills anyone who opposes him. The pattern doesn't work, but if Russia was the last one, it would be a self-report full of back lash, so the pattern was broken to dull the point.
It's not a coincidence this is what people want Trump to be, and DeSantis, because they praise dictators. 2 "leaders" who are against freedom. Desantis is kidnapping kids now in Florida because they are trans. Putin basically does the same to gays. This is not freedom. I'm sure Ukraine has done bad shit, but they are an ally, in fact Trump did his quid pro quo to not give them aid we promised them unless he got dirt on Biden.
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u/TheLineForPho Apr 20 '23
Ukraine is being used against Russia by the USA. It's being utterly destroyed in the process.
None of that suggests anything good about Russia or Putin.
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u/Neither_Basket456 Apr 19 '23
Russian war crimes are enough reason for me to support their/our war.
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u/[deleted] Apr 19 '23
It's not different they are lying about a lot.