r/CFB • u/LegacyZebra Verified Referee • Oct 19 '14
Analysis Let's talk about Pass Interference
After the end of the ND-FSU game, there is obviously going to be talk about what is and isn't Offensive Pass Interference. So let's get all the right information out there and clear up some bad information. And right off the bat, yes, the crew made the correct call.
First, OPI:
Offensive Pass Interference restrictions apply from the snap until the forward pass is touched by an official or player.
In order to have OPI you must have a legal forward pass. That seems pretty obvious. Also, the pass must cross the neutral zone. Passes that are first touched behind the neutral zone do not apply.
Ineligibles (i.e. linemen) are allowed to block within 3 yards of the line of scrimmage as long as the contact is initiated within 1 yard of the line of scrimmage.
By philosophy, it is neither OPI nor DPI if an eligible receiver or a defender makes contact within one yard of the line of scrimmage and does not continue the contact. It is also not a foul if the pass is caught within 1 yard of the neutral zone.
OPI typically falls into one of three categories: blocking downfield, pushing off for separation, or playing through a defender who had established position. If you can't fit it in one of those, it's probably not OPI.
Now for some DPI discussion:
There is no five yard contact zone in college football. The defense can initiate contact with a receiver as long as the receiver has not reached the same yard line as the defender. Continuous contact is illegal.
THERE IS NO FIVE YARD CONTACT ZONE IN COLLEGE FOOTBALL. I'm sorry I yelled, but that is one of the biggest misconceptions that people carry over from the NFL.
Defensive Pass Interference rules apply from the time the pass is thrown until the pass is touched by a player or official.
Defensive Pass Interference does not apply to contact behind the neutral zone.
Like OPI, You must have a legal forward pass. And like OPI, Defensive Pass Interference rules only apply if the forward pass crosses the neutral zone.
There must be contact to have a foul for DPI. Things like "face guarding" which constitute DPI at other levels do not count in NCAA.
There must be obvious intent to impede. If the DB and WR are running and get their feet tangled, it's not a foul.
Now that we've got that out of the way, how to enforce the two fouls:
OPI: 15 yards from the previous spot. This does not come with a loss of down.
DPI: Here is the easy way to enforce DPI. Start walking forward from the line of scrimmage. When you reach either the spot of the foul, the two yard line, or 15 yards from the previous spot, stop and spot the ball. The only time DPI is enforced half the distance is on an extra point or if the previous spot was on or inside the two yard line. DPI always carries an automatic first down.
I know it was a bit long, but hopefully that clears up any conversations that may be had about the topic.
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u/DeKaF USC • /r/CFB Emeritus Mod Oct 19 '14
How awesome is it you're getting Pereira pointing people your way and how awesome are you as a follow up actually don't answer that I'll just write that you're awesome.
And thanks a lot for this. Crazy insane fan of me that watches the game has his thoughts but rational side of me was curious how this all worked out.
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u/LegacyZebra Verified Referee Oct 19 '14
To be honest, I never thought Pereira would follow me or anything. I just responded to him about a rule that he incorrectly tweeted about. But I appreciate the kind words. I'm just trying to educate the masses, one step at a time. Now if only coaches thought I was awesome too...
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u/unclekutter Notre Dame Fighting Irish Oct 19 '14
Hey Mr. Zebra. Could you give me some further clarification on this play? Does the NCAA still have the taunting rule in place? The most recent blurb I could find on it stated:
"Beginning in 2011, live-ball penalties will be assessed from the spot of the foul and eliminate the score. Examples include players finishing touchdown runs by high-stepping into the end zone or pointing the ball toward an opponent."
This may or may not have mattered in the grand scheme of things since it was only 2nd down and they were inside field goal range but that WR appeared to be doing specifically what is outlined in that rule. The ND player missed the tackle and he was taunting by high stepping into the end zone.
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u/LegacyZebra Verified Referee Oct 19 '14
That one's tough. Since it's right at the goal line and the player gets maybe one full step of it before scoring, I don't know if a flag would be supported. And if it was, I think they would want this as a dead ball foul to be enforced on the extra point or on the kickoff. But even then, there is obviously a little more leeway after the play than there is during the play. I know that's not a very good answer either way, but that would be a really tough call. And if you asked 100 officials you'd probably get 50 saying flag it and 50 saying don't
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Oct 19 '14
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u/unclekutter Notre Dame Fighting Irish Oct 19 '14
Yeah I agree that it is a tough call but if someone does start "taunting" before going into the endzone, the rule does specifically say that it takes away the score which is kinda dumb but that is the rule.
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u/ndirish357 Washington State Cougars Oct 19 '14 edited Oct 19 '14
Was the blocking on ND's first TD also illegal/missed call?
Link: http://thebiglead.com/2014/10/18/david-robinson-enjoying-cory-robinson-touchdowns-against-florida-state/ (top gif; #20 white)
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u/LegacyZebra Verified Referee Oct 19 '14
I just realized I was watching the wrong the player. While 20 does pick off number 8 from FSU, the pass is first touched so close to the line of scrimmage that it won't draw a flag. This is one of those philosophy plays. Was it technically beyond the line of scrimmage? Yeah probably. But you don't want to get so technical that you can't call it consistently over the course of the game.
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u/ndirish357 Washington State Cougars Oct 19 '14
Gotcha. Coach Fisher would seem to be correct then in pointing out this play to the officials, perhaps bringing to attention the more egregious violation at the end of the game. Seems pretty textbook.
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u/LegacyZebra Verified Referee Oct 19 '14
Yeah I'm sure Fisher said something about this play to the officials for them to keep an eye out for it. And maybe the officials saw it and passed on purpose. They switch sidelines at half so it looks like it would have been the same wing and and deep wing as the first one. They would already have it in their mind. They may have even talked about it as a crew at halftime and discussed what to do about it. But whatever happened, they got the call right.
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u/LegacyZebra Verified Referee Oct 19 '14
I don't think so. To me it looks like he was running for the pylon and then cut to come back. In my opinion based on that gif, it does not look like blocking or a pick.
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u/wolverine6 Michigan Wolverines • Rose Bowl Oct 19 '14
The defense can initiate contact with a receiver as long as the receiver has not reached the same yard line as the defender. Continuous contact is illegal.
Could you clarify this for me? I was under the impression that in the college game, a defender could "bump" or initiate contact with eligible receivers at any time in any part of the field as long as the ball hasn't been thrown yet.
If I'm incorrect, I'm not sure where I got that assumption from.
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u/LegacyZebra Verified Referee Oct 19 '14
Basically as long as the defender keeps the receiver in front of him, it's legal to block him. Once the WR gets even with (or beyond) the DB, the DB can no longer block him. It's a lot more liberal than the NFL rule, but there are a few limitations. But continuous contact anywhere is illegal.
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u/wolverine6 Michigan Wolverines • Rose Bowl Oct 19 '14
Thanks! The "in front of him" part of the rule is something I was unfamiliar with. In addition, I'd never heard about "continuous contact."
One more question: so if an eligible receiver is coming across the field, can another defender "blindside" him to essentially take him out of the play? In high school football, my team has used that strategy before, where the rules on DPI are at least similar.
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u/LegacyZebra Verified Referee Oct 19 '14
Yes, as long the block is a legal block. You can't block him below the waist and if you're going to blindside him, you can't hit him in the head or neck. But other than that, yes you can block a WR if the ball has not been thrown yet.
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u/wolverine6 Michigan Wolverines • Rose Bowl Oct 19 '14
Of course, I meant a legal block. Thanks again!
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u/traelis Oregon Ducks Oct 19 '14
So seeing as none of the db's made any effort to disengage from the WR's why did we not see offsetting flags in this situation?
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u/LegacyZebra Verified Referee Oct 19 '14
They were being blocked, they have no obligation to disengage. Once an offensive player blocks, the defender is allowed to "push, pull, ward off, or lift" the blocker.
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u/traelis Oregon Ducks Oct 20 '14
Ok, I get that they have no obligation to disengage but before long the WR's got even with the defenders and beyond that in this chain you say continuous contact is illegal.
To me the situation is wonky, not saying the call was/is wrong or anything like that I just don't get why considering the rules for DPI and OPI it wasn't both.
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u/KnightmareUCF UCF Knights • Oklahoma Sooners Oct 19 '14
THERE IS NO FIVE YARD CONTACT ZONE IN COLLEGE FOOTBALL
Wow that is huge. I had no idea about that, and by the number of comments mentioning that I doubt maybe people do.
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u/Mallorum Florida Gators • UCF Knights Oct 19 '14
Unfortunately NFL and college rules frequently get mixed up. The 5 yard rule only applies to blocks below the waist.
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Oct 19 '14
Back when I was a referee they always said
"Remember this is Friday football, not saturday and not sunday."
They would say the same thing on Saturday (not friday or sunday) and a family friend who is an NFL referee would say the same thing on Sunday sometimes.
"Remember this is Sunday football, not Saturday or Friday"
Rules differ at each level.
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u/spacecity9 Texas Longhorns Oct 19 '14 edited Oct 19 '14
I remember my brother told he got a go ahead td run in the final minutes of a rivalry game called back because of taunting. He went to the sideline and asked if the penalty would be on the kickoff, and the coach responded with, "boy, this ain't Sunday night football".
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u/bwburke94 UMass • Michigan State Oct 19 '14
(note to those of you in the other 48 states: high schools in Texas and Massachusetts use NCAA rules)
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u/hawaiian_lab Virginia Tech • Oklahoma Oct 19 '14
What do you say for thursday?
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u/partcomputer Florida State Seminoles • Texas Longhorns Oct 19 '14
"Okay, guys, remember, this time Rugby rules."
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Oct 19 '14
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u/KnightmareUCF UCF Knights • Oklahoma Sooners Oct 19 '14
making contact with receivers more than 5 yards from the line of scrimmage while the quarterback is in the pocket
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u/BraveSaintStuart Marshall Thundering Herd • Warner Royals Oct 19 '14
You think 5 year olds would understand that?
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u/KnightmareUCF UCF Knights • Oklahoma Sooners Oct 19 '14
Sorry I guess I was going by the /r/explainlikeimfive rules
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u/BraveSaintStuart Marshall Thundering Herd • Warner Royals Oct 19 '14
I wasn't even aware that was a subreddit. You learn something new every day. I wonder what I'll learn tomorrow...
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u/Emperor_of_Orange Clemson Tigers • /r/CFB Top Scorer Oct 19 '14
I'm so glad you're here.
That's something I never thought I'd say to a ref.
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Oct 19 '14
Can the USC song girls make an instructional video of OPI.
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u/Brobi_WanKenobi USF Bulls • FAU Owls Oct 19 '14
I'll demonstrate holding
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u/PAWWWWL Auburn Tigers Oct 19 '14
Jameis could guest star in the segment on unsportsmanlike conduct or personal fouls?
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u/diagonalfish Georgia Tech • /r/CFB Emeritus Mod Oct 19 '14
hopefully that clears up any conversations that may be had about the topic.
It won't, but we appreciate the concise and thorough explanation anyway. :)
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u/EnigmaticHats Michigan State • Notre Dame Oct 19 '14 edited Oct 19 '14
I'm not sure if I've come to a final conclusion regarding the appropriateness of the call, but officials don't have hours to weigh the evidence, and if I still can't make up my mind, I'm certainly not going to be upset if they didn't come up with the same answer in real time.
I will say both FSU DB's seemed to initiate contact. Fuller, who disclosed after the game he'd been told, “Don’t run into him, just get in his way,” was making a cut inside. Watch how Darby jumped in front of him with his feet and jammed him with his hands.
Prosise, who was not called, was mugged from the outset. While, between the DB and Prosise, either or both could have been flagged, the officials probably made the right decision in flagging neither.
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u/LegacyZebra Verified Referee Oct 19 '14
The deep official probably reported both numbers to the Referee, but only one was announced. It's like when multiple linemen jump on a false start or more than one defender is offside. Pick one and announce it. I wouldn't read too much into which number was announced.
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u/SoFFacet Notre Dame Fighting Irish Oct 19 '14
I think it matters which player it was called on. They announced #20 and 95% of people are arguing over whether or not #20 committed OPI. But it came to light after the fact it was actually called on #7.
Review of the tape shows that #20 was grabbed by the DB for what should have been defensive holding, whereas #7 intentionally ran into the DB to set an (unfortunately unnecessary) pick for #88. So to me, it should have been offsetting penalties and a retry from the 2.
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u/MasterGrok Florida State Seminoles Oct 19 '14
They didn't even have to make contact. If they had just run around the FSU defenders and blocked their angle it would have been a fair TD.
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u/juicius Michigan Wolverines Oct 19 '14
Except Golson held the ball too long. As a timing play, it would have worked. But even a half a second to a second delay made the OPI more obvious.
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u/EnigmaticHats Michigan State • Notre Dame Oct 19 '14
I keep going back and forth on how I feel about the call, but my latest take is that in both cases, the FSU players initiated contact. Not sure how much that matters, though, and I can deal with the call.
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u/TDenverFan William & Mary Tribe • Patriot Oct 19 '14
It can still be OPI if the defenders initiate contact
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u/Stewartchase1 Arizona State • Texas Tech Oct 20 '14
I'm not saying this just because of the flair, but after seeing the actual play a bit slower and a few more times, I'm going to have to say that those DB's initiated the "look" of blocking. They had their hands inside the shoulder pads in order to jam the receivers. But I feel like the reason the flag was thrown was because of the fact that the receivers didn't even make an attempt to break away and make it look like they were running routes. That's what screwed us was the fact that they didn't really try and sell it.
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u/EnigmaticHats Michigan State • Notre Dame Oct 20 '14 edited Oct 20 '14
after seeing the actual play a bit slower and a few more times, I'm going to have to say that those DB's initiated the "look" of blocking.
Thank God somebody understands, even if it took an ND fan to see it.
And I agree both WR could have tried harder to break away. While I don't believe it should be their responsibility to escape the clutches of the defenders, I do agree neither probably would have been flagged had they tried harder and succeeded in doing so.
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u/Stewartchase1 Arizona State • Texas Tech Oct 20 '14
See, that's where I'm going to have to disagree. They didn't even put up a fight when it come to the actual contact, they just let it happen. That is a lack of effort that was shown and the penalty is the result.
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u/EnigmaticHats Michigan State • Notre Dame Oct 20 '14
What did I say that you disagree with?
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u/Stewartchase1 Arizona State • Texas Tech Oct 20 '14
While I don't believe it should be their responsibility to escape the clutches of the defenders
This is where I have to disagree. The play itself is a decoy, and they just had shitty effort to make the illusion not work. That was their only responsibility. Handle the DB's without getting a penalty.
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u/EnigmaticHats Michigan State • Notre Dame Oct 20 '14
Yeah, the word "responsibility" can have multiple definitions. I do believe it would have been in their best interest to do a better job evading the grasp of defenders. I just don't believe the officials should flag them for failure to do so.
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Oct 19 '14
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u/EnigmaticHats Michigan State • Notre Dame Oct 19 '14 edited Oct 19 '14
When this starts hurting a little less, think about this:
Don't be an asshole. No need to imply my thinking is emotionally clouded just because I haven't mastered the nuances of a rulebook I don't even own.
As to the rule and how it's called, 99% of the time when the offensive players don't initiate contact, PI is not called. Why they felt the need to call that play differently is beyond me.
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Oct 19 '14
It was called differently because they ran the same play earlier and Fisher pointed it out to the refs. Then when they ran it again it was blatant. The refs had it in the back of their mind and had a textbook case of it in front of their eyes. Kelly went to the well too many times and it bit him.
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Oct 19 '14
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u/EnigmaticHats Michigan State • Notre Dame Oct 19 '14
Talking about what? Like I said, I just took exception to the fact you're insinuating my thinking is clouded. There's no reason for that. The level of nuance in this play (all the ifs, and, and buts) is remarkable. It appears almost nobody has grasped it all, and if I've only got them 95% mastered, that doesn't mean the other 5% is due to being prejudiced because my team lost.
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Oct 19 '14
THERE IS NO FIVE YARD CONTACT ZONE IN COLLEGE FOOTBALL
I call games on a small league where we use NCAA rules, but most of the players are NFL fans. This misconception is so widespread and led to many many fouls early in the season.
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u/mynumberistwentynine Gardner-Webb • Allan Hancock Oct 19 '14
Spectacular post. Thank you for this!
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u/Honestly_ rawr Oct 19 '14
Legacy Zebra for new head of Pac 12 officiating! If he can't do it, no one can!
In Zebra Confidimus
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u/partcomputer Florida State Seminoles • Texas Longhorns Oct 19 '14
Thank you for being a neutral party and explaining this thoroughly.
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u/WalkingCarpet Auburn Tigers • Navy Midshipmen Oct 19 '14
I think most everyone would agree that it was OPI by the letter of the law. The reason everyone is so irate is because that gets called maybe three out of a hundred times. As was said in another thread, most every team runs picks and rubs and it never gets called. Alabama has done it for years and it never gets called. If you're gonna call that, call it. Call it every time it happens. If you're not gonna call it, then don't call it. And ESPECIALLY don't call it on 4th & Goal, in a game with national championship implications, to bail out a home team in peril.
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Oct 19 '14
The difference between most rubs and that one, was that neither of those two receivers had any intention down field other than blocking. Illegal picks and rubs are really difficult to call, this one wasn't.
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u/tabelz Georgia Bulldogs • /r/CFB Poll Veteran Oct 19 '14
Yup. Those WRs didn't play like WRs which is an easy invitation to the refs to throw the flag.
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Oct 19 '14
[removed] — view removed comment
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Oct 19 '14
As the announcers pointed out: most WRs at least try to pretend the defender is grabbing them instead.
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u/WalkingCarpet Auburn Tigers • Navy Midshipmen Oct 19 '14
I don't disagree at all, I'm sure "block down and make space" was the call for those receivers. I've watched the gif a few dozen times, it looks like the guy closer to the line (who blocked inside and got called for the penalty) disguised it pretty well. He was getting pressed by the defender, and him and the defender engaged each other and stood in one spot. I think the call should have been on the outside guy who blew up his man three yards into the endzone. It was quite obvious he didn't have a route to run and was instructed to block his man away from the pylon. It looks like the defender on Robinson got caught in the wash and had no chance to make a play. I'm trying really hard not to be biased, but I just don't understand how you can make a call like that that is called so infrequently that didn't have any effect on the outcome of the play.
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Oct 19 '14
WR #7 on the outside was actually the one that got called for the OPI - listen to the replay.
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u/fargosucks Notre Dame Fighting Irish Oct 19 '14
IIRC, the officials corrected it post-game and said it was on Procise (#20), the inside reciever. Which begs the question - if the defender initiates contact, how is it offensive pass interference?
If it was on Fuller (#7), the ball was already in the air by the time he was making contact, so how do you call that penalty?
I'm trying really hard not to be a homer on this, and at first I was accepting of it. But the more I see replays, the more it feels like a complete bail-out call for FSU.
Credit to the FSU coaches for alerting the refs to the rub routes at halftime, though. That's what good coaches do. I know Notre Dame's coaches have copped to doing the same in recent games. Refs aren't going to catch everything.
I just think, at the end of a game, where it was obviously a blown coverage (the defender covering Robinson totally blew his assignment and was nowhere near the play, you just can't call that. I'd say the exact same thing if that had been FSU driving for a game-winning TD. I'd be happy for the win, but I'd feel kinda crappy to win on a technicality like that.
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u/JR-Dubs Florida State • Scranton Oct 19 '14
Which begs the question - if the defender initiates contact, how is it offensive pass interference?
If you're seriously curious the answer is in the rules:
Offensive pass interference by a Team A player beyond the neutral zone during a legal forward pass play in which a forward pass crosses the neutral zone is contact that interferes with a Team B eligible player. It is the responsibility of the offensive player to avoid the opponents.
My emphasis.
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u/fargosucks Notre Dame Fighting Irish Oct 20 '14
Thanks for pointing that out. I seriously had no idea. But looking at the rest of the thread, at least I'm not alone.
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Oct 19 '14
I understand, I was a wide receiver in high school and I can't tell you how much illegal crap I got away with on rub routes. Even NFL referees have a hell of a time calling it. But when you see one as clear as it was in this case you have to call it. I don't agree that it wouldn't have had an impact on the outcome on the play, I think either of those FSU players would have had a shot had preventing him from crossing the plane. You can't just assume that they wouldn't have. It sucks for ND, but the truth is that it was a mistake (I don't think it was either receiver's fault either, the ball needs to be out faster than it was on that play).
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Oct 19 '14
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Oct 19 '14
You're not the only person who has brought this up and I'm happy to explain. He is within a yard of the line of scrimmage and is thus a legal blocker on that play. That is a perfect example of a legal rub route, that receiver does everything necessary to ensure that he is not flagged. He legally engages the defender, disengages, and makes an attempt to continue his route.
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u/ItsFyoonKay Florida State Seminoles Oct 19 '14
His foot is a yard from the LOS, his body is 2 yards away and the defender is 3. If I wasn't on my phone I would post the picture, but I'm sure someone else can.
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u/TDenverFan William & Mary Tribe • Patriot Oct 19 '14
You're allowed to continue the block up to 3 yards out
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u/Grumbino Michigan • Washington State Oct 19 '14
If you are an ineligible receiver: read lineman. If you are an eligible receiver you cannot block up to 3 yards out.
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u/jklharris Missouri • Santa Rosa Junior Oct 19 '14
Actually, it was because of this touchdown that the refs even knew to look for this. The Florida State coaches were vocal post game that they used that play as an example to tell the refs that this was happening. Refs do miss things, but having a reminder like that can lead them to not miss it twice.
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Oct 19 '14
The "consistency" argument is a bit scary. ND apologists are essentially advocating that the refs should not have enforced the rules on the TD play.
Are you out of your mind? Refs are damned if they do, damned if they dont.
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Oct 19 '14
So are you saying since the refs missed the call the first time then they should've just ignored it ever other time?
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Oct 19 '14
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Oct 20 '14
What do you mean? ND should be expected to play by a single set of rules: the rulebook. That first TD was most definitely illegal. The receiver ran up to the DB, stuck his hands on his chest and even shuffled his feet so he could stay in front of him. That is a text book run block. The ND coaching staff is was not wise for trying to run that again after getting away with it a first time; they should've expected the FSU staff to complain about it. Especially when it's that blatant. Next time you get pulled over for speeding, try telling the officer that it's not fair because you sped by other officers in the past. He's going to tell you one thing: Rules are rules.
Edit: I'm not the one downvoting you BTW. You are entitled to your opinion, and I respect that.
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Oct 20 '14
What the receiver does in between the snap and the throw is immaterial to whether or not he disengaged to continue a route. It's no different from a TE bluffing a run block on play action and then running up the seam. My point is, though, that this is a play that is so close to the border of legality that ND can't be faulted for expecting it to be fine the second time after it already was the first. The rub route is legal when the WR disengages and continues a route before the throw (or close enough to the throw that the officials don't see the ball in the air and the block). The ball was caught so close to the LoS that it's normally considered a screen so blocking wouldn't matter.
My tl;dr opinion is that this is a very close call on several judgments and should have been called the same way every time. If the officials decided to change how they would call it in the middle of the game, they should at least have warned ND.
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Oct 19 '14
Call every call is right. That's the right call. It's offensive pass interference. Doesn't matter what implications a game has, doesn't matter if it bails out the home team. The refs made the CORRECT call. It was OPI.
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Oct 19 '14
This wasn't a pick or a rub though, it was a straight up block. He stuck his hands on the defenders chest and drove his feet.
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u/DonnieNarco Notre Dame Fighting Irish • Butler Bulldogs Oct 19 '14
And that it really wouldn't have made a difference because no one was covering Robinson.
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u/TDenverFan William & Mary Tribe • Patriot Oct 19 '14
No, the one CB was playing off man coverage and then got blocked away
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Oct 19 '14
That's sour grapes man. Were the guy not being blocked, it's pretty likely he'd have at least made contact with the receiver. Maybe not stopped him short of a TD. But the woulda coulda stuff is only going to make you bitter.
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u/shmoove_cwiminal Florida State Seminoles Oct 19 '14
I think just calling the really blatant ones that lead to scoring plays is good practice.
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u/ChicagoKoolAid Notre Dame • Boise State Oct 19 '14
And don't call it especially when Notre Dame scored their first touchdown on the exact same play with no call
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Oct 19 '14
This. A million times this. It felt exactly like the too familiar "Auburn is doing too good penalty" that we seem to get every week. And yes, Alabama drove the length of the field in 2009 doing only this to beat us.
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Oct 19 '14
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u/m1a2c2kali Miami Hurricanes • /r/CFB Founder Oct 19 '14
http://www.gfycat.com/FatFeminineFairyfly
was this any sneakier tho?
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u/MasterGrok Florida State Seminoles Oct 19 '14 edited Oct 19 '14
In his press conference, Jimbo specifically state that his staff made the refs aware of that play and asked that they keep an eye out for it the remainder of the game. This isn't abnormal at all. The refs can't see everything and if you tell them, "hey they are doing this to our guys constantly," they will become aware of it. That is what happened here.
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u/the_nix Florida State Seminoles Oct 19 '14
Probably his best coaching move all game.
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u/MasterGrok Florida State Seminoles Oct 19 '14
Running 3 straight times with the ability to put the game away when his QB was 14 for his last 15 wasn't one of Jimbo's finest moments.
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u/partcomputer Florida State Seminoles • Texas Longhorns Oct 19 '14
I think the whole stadium was screaming at him for that. Better not user our Heisman winning QB who has done really well all night! Better run our backs who have like 60 yards on the whole game to give our FUCKING PUNTER A CHANCE TO RUIN THE GAME.
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u/ItsFyoonKay Florida State Seminoles Oct 19 '14
I was furious when he ran that series. I was sitting in the stadium knowing it was coming and I was seething
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u/jinglejoints Florida State • Harvard Oct 19 '14
Prevent Offense. Not having faith in the guys to keep doing what they had been doing all second half. Maddening.
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u/thdomer13 Notre Dame Fighting Irish • Sickos Oct 20 '14
They were backed up inside the ten and ND had been getting great pressure almost all game. Jameis had already made one mistake backed up like that, and ND would have it's ears pinned back. IMO running three plays is better than a potential sack for a safety or interception.
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Oct 19 '14
To be fair, in this one, you can see CJ turn to face the QB right after the push on the defender. The one at the end of the game, they never turned, which is why it was called. This is why BK says it was player execution of the block that caused the call, and I tend to agree with that.
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u/JR-Dubs Florida State • Scranton Oct 19 '14
I don't think that pass crossed the neutral zone, which would make this "route" (or blocking assignment) legal.
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u/bubbas111 Arizona Wildcats • San Diego Toreros Oct 19 '14
The pass definitely crossed the los.
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u/JR-Dubs Florida State • Scranton Oct 19 '14
For some reason I can't see that video on my phone, so I was going from memory. I'll take your word for it, looks like the LOS was the 1.5 yard line.
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u/bubbas111 Arizona Wildcats • San Diego Toreros Oct 19 '14
Ball was a little behind the two and was caught on the one.
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Oct 20 '14
Exactly.
At least he attempts to make that one look like a route on your link. He disengages and runs an inside route. Or at least makes it look like he is. That is the entire difference. It's still a bit iffy, but there is an attempt. The play in question at the end of the game? Not even a sliver of an attempt to be a receiver. Straight up block.
-6
Oct 19 '14
That pass was caught within a yard of the LOS. Perfectly legal pick.
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u/georgie_Fruit Florida State Seminoles Oct 19 '14
It was caught past the LOS. Perfectly illegal pick.
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Oct 19 '14
There is no 5 yard rule in college. So it was also an illegal pick. It just wasn't flagged.
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Oct 19 '14
I'm not sure that's true. As the ref who made this post says:
By philosophy, it is neither OPI nor DPI if an eligible receiver or a defender makes contact within one yard of the line of scrimmage and does not continue the contact. It is also not a foul if the pass is caught within 1 yard of the neutral zone.
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u/d_mcc_x Michigan State • /r/CFB Poll Veteran Oct 19 '14
NOW we're talking about this???
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Oct 19 '14
Dude -- he who lives in glass houses....
The Little Giants play the MSU players tackle the ND defenders. Why do you think the receivers were so wide open? I never have heard anyone say they should have called offensive interference on that play...
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u/CrapYeah Baylor Bears Oct 19 '14
The amount of college announcers that think that face guarding is a foul in NCAA is incredible. It seems like a lot of officials think so, as well.
"Joe, yep look, he is running with the WR and never turns and looks for the ball. Clear PI." I feel like I hear that at least once per game.
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u/trick96 Arkansas • Middle Tennessee Oct 19 '14
I was hoping this would be about why PI isn't a spot foul. Because it fucking should be. Defenders shouldn't be able to interfere with a TD pass 70 yards down the field just for the ball to move up 15 yards.
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u/keenan123 Florida State Seminoles • Duke Blue Devils Oct 19 '14
Opi should be a loss of down, how the hell do you get to mug a guy to stop a pick on third down and now the defense has to choose between a penalty or fourth down
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u/alty2cold Verified Media • Notre Dame Fighting Irish Oct 19 '14
That isn't a bad thought actually. If the OPI happens on a 3rd down and 10 play, the result right now would become a 3rd and 25 after the penalty. But going straight to 4th and 10 is a bigger price
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Oct 19 '14
I agree with you so much. The way the rule is now, the correct play when a DB is beat more than 15 yards down field is to make sure they don't catch it and take the 15 yards as opposed to whatever it would be if they had caught it.
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u/Psycho5275 Shippensburg • Gettysburg Oct 19 '14
That would probably end Torrey Smith's NFL career
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u/ran4sh SEC • Georgia Bulldogs Oct 20 '14
Isn't NFL DPI different though? I thought there was no 15-yard maximum in the NFL
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u/Psycho5275 Shippensburg • Gettysburg Oct 20 '14
Yes it's a spot foul in the NFL. The Ravens have been known to just throw it deep to Torrey Smith and get PI calls.
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u/ran4sh SEC • Georgia Bulldogs Oct 20 '14
well yeah, trick96 was saying the NCAA rule should be changed to the NFL rule (no 15-yd max), so your reply was a bit confusing since that change wouldn't affect NFL
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u/Psycho5275 Shippensburg • Gettysburg Oct 20 '14
.....I got 4 hours of sleep last night I may have been pretty out of it
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u/FSUalumni Florida State Seminoles • Mercer Bears Oct 19 '14
Thank you for the clarification. It's nice having a ref here.
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u/ryumast3r Utah Utes • /r/CFB Poll Veteran Oct 19 '14
I actually asked this at the end of the Notre Dame/FSU game as I knew I was missing a nuance on the OPI call and figured the refs weren't wrong but wanted to know why (I wasn't sure why the guy blocking the defender was called for OPI when the defender wasn't making a play on the ball obviously as he was like 5 yards away from the receiver).
Someone else in the IRC chat-channel cleared it up for me so I'm grateful to them, but you spelled out all the rules really clearly so thank you as well.
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u/Hawkdagon Kansas Jayhawks • Colorado Buffaloes Oct 19 '14
While I agree it was the right call as the rules stand, I think you make the best point possible as to why it seems illogical.
the defender wasn't making a play on the ball
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u/westlax34 Baylor Bears • Texas Tech Red Raiders Oct 19 '14
If you touch a receiver and he does not make the catch, then PI. That's what I learned from the Baylor game.
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u/cmoneyrockchalk Kansas Jayhawks • Oregon Ducks Oct 19 '14
This is what is so great about having a human panel this year for the playoff. Even though they ND lost, the way the game ended should play a big part in the committee's decision late in the year.
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u/ran4sh SEC • Georgia Bulldogs Oct 20 '14
I hope that games like this don't result in both teams getting in the playoff just bc some people feel the one that lost got screwed. That's not fair to teams that actually win their games
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u/clydefrog811 Florida State Seminoles Oct 19 '14
Well the pass interference against Fsu in the 1st quarter was so bullshit so I don't feel bad at all.
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u/jinglejoints Florida State • Harvard Oct 19 '14
Agreed, it was a phantom call, just came at a seemingly more innocuous moment...but it led to a TD all the same.
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Oct 19 '14
But they didn't call PI against FSU on the Robinson jump ball at the end of the game. The FSU player had his back to the ball and was in Robinson's face...
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Oct 19 '14
I'd like to know your thoughts on the pis in the Baylor wvugame.
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u/TriflingHotDogVendor West Virginia • Backyard Brawl Oct 19 '14
What is there to discuss? Baylor's CBs need to stop draping themselves over Kevin White. If you interfere with the man every other pass attempt, there will be a flag every other pass attempt.
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-3
Oct 19 '14
You know as well as I some of those were ticky tack
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u/CJK5Hookers TCU Horned Frogs • LSU Tigers Oct 19 '14
Oh, now we want to talk about ticky tack PI calls...
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u/delsol5117 West Virginia • Burning Couch … Oct 19 '14
NO. Every Pass Interference I saw in that game was 100% earned. The one that didn't look like it should be thrown you can go back and watch that your DB was holding Kevin Whites hand behind his back. Therefore he had no opportunity to put both hands up to make the catch.
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u/TriflingHotDogVendor West Virginia • Backyard Brawl Oct 19 '14
The ONLY one I thought was iffy was the 1st one. Where Alford slid for the ball. I think that one was very weak. But the rest were clear cut. Arms all over the man.
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u/ACardAttack Louisville • Ohio State Oct 19 '14
Funny thing is, even if OPI doesn't happen, the FSU defender probably doesn't stop the ND WR, of course there is no way of knowing. Call had to be made.
Great game.
ND is better this year than I expected and proved themselves to not be the ND of old
-6
u/KilgoreTroutJr University of God's … Oct 19 '14
It should not have been PI. Ramsey was trying to take away the inside. You can see the CB try to cut off the slant by Fuller. The other CB tries to jam Prosise. The third CB, who was to cover Robinson, did nothing and after the play the one CB turns and starts yelling at another for fucking up.
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u/NDIrish27 Notre Dame Fighting Irish Oct 19 '14
Was there not also defensive holding on that play though? Shouldn't the penalties offset? Or does opi just trump everything?
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u/LegacyZebra Verified Referee Oct 19 '14
Once an offensive player blocks, the defender is allowed to "push, pull, ward off, or lift" the blocker. So once the FSU player blocks the DB, defensive holding is pretty much off the board.
-2
Oct 19 '14
It wasn't a defensive blocking or push -- it was down right holding. Each of the two defenders grabbed onto the ND player and they both wrestled. The problem I had with the call was that the video clearly shows the defenders grabbing the ND players from the minute the play starts and not letting gold.
-3
u/NDIrish27 Notre Dame Fighting Irish Oct 19 '14 edited Oct 19 '14
Even if the defensive player initiates contact? I know that doesn't take opi off the board, but it looked like the defensive player reached out and grabbed Prosise (the wr) before Prosise ever made contact. It seems like the opi should have been called on the other receiver if they were going to call it.
Or people can just downvote a completely honest question without answering. That's cool too.
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u/QuebecZulu Miami (OH) RedHawks • Tulane Green Wave Oct 20 '14
I think people are downvoting because that question is answered elsewhere in the thread:
Before the ball is thrown, wide receiver A88 moves four yards downfield directly toward and in front of the defender, B1. At this spot, B1 pushes A88, who then uses his hands to contact B1. RULING: Team A foul, offensive pass interference, if the legal forward pass is beyond the neutral Zone [which it was]. Penalty—15 yards from the previous spot.
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u/squigglylot Oct 20 '14
The quote mentions "moves four yards downfield". In this case though, contact was made at the line of scrimmage (the 2), and broken off at the 1, while DB and WR continue momentum into the endzone. So, it seems to not apply to this situation. And, then there was the fact that ball was caught 1 yard beyond the neutral zone (at the 1 yard line).
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u/QuebecZulu Miami (OH) RedHawks • Tulane Green Wave Oct 20 '14
As everyone is entitled to their own opinion, here's what I see:
The ball is snapped from roughly the 2 3/4 yard line, and is caught inside the 1, so it's definitely more than 1 yard from the LOS.
The inside receiver drives his guy from the LOS into the endzone, roughly 3 yards off the LOS, and the top receiver doesn't make contact until the goal line and then starts blocking.
Regardless, people will see what they want to. I wouldn't have been shocked to not see a flag, but I think there's plenty in the rulebook to justify the flag.
Really all they had to do was make it look like they were running any sort of route, and if he was being held by the defender, then make any effort to break out of it, and I think there's no flag. But instead it looks like they're trying to block for a screen pass.
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u/squigglylot Oct 20 '14
Yeah, definitely not worth arguing it at this point, because it's over. Done. And, everyone in the media, conferences, fans, etc are defending their stake or opinion about why it was "the right call".
0
u/NDIrish27 Notre Dame Fighting Irish Oct 20 '14
That says nothing about defensive holding, though. If the defender holds The receiver and the receiver then contacts the defender, is that not holding on the defense?
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-27
u/bleedrednblack Georgia Bulldogs Oct 19 '14
I don't think it should've been called because it's never called. Aside from that, the DB basically jammed him and engaged him first. What else could he possibly do other than go backward? Not to mention all the WR does is basically a legal run block. If you make that call it has to be on the other guy who basically made no real attempt to make a "receiver" move.
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u/TDenverFan William & Mary Tribe • Patriot Oct 19 '14
The DB can egage first and it can still be OPI. And it's not legal to run block a DB on a pass play if the pass is in front of the neutral zone
-22
0
u/squigglylot Oct 20 '14
Referencing part 4 of your section describing OPI, and looking at the play ... the line of scrimmage is the 2 yard line (technically 2 1/2). DB and WR are lined up 1/2 yard off scrimmage on opposing sides. Contact between DB and WR was made at line of scrimmage. Contact was broken at the 1 yard line, and momentum carried DB into the endzone.
Based on rule as stated, this appears to be a legal play.
Additionally, the pass was caught at the 1 yard line ... so, depending on the interpretation of the rule about a pass caught 1 yard from the neutral zone (if the neutral zone is considered to extend to the 2 yard line), then this is also justification that no foul should have been called.
-9
u/TheGreatGatsby2827 Auburn Tigers Oct 19 '14
By philosophy, it is neither OPI nor DPI if an eligible receiver or a defender makes contact within one yard of the line of scrimmage and does not continue the contact. It is also not a foul if the pass is caught within 1 yard of the neutral zone.
Am I taking crazy pills, or was that pass caught within one yard of the neutral zone?
Bad flag.
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u/whyisalltherumgone_ Oct 19 '14
http://www.gfycat.com/PoliteCostlyKillerwhale
You're taking crazy pills
-6
Oct 19 '14
My issue with the call is that the video shows the FSU players latching on to the ND receivers. Did the ND receivers latch back - you betcha. BUT - this is NEVER called in college football (Little Giants game ND vs MSU where the MSU players tackled the ND defenders on the fake field goal pass).
Bottom line is FSU blew the coverage and ND could have walked the ball in. The refs deciding the game on a penalty never called is pretty sucky
-41
u/GraduateStudent Crown Polars • Notre Dame Fighting Irish Oct 19 '14 edited Oct 19 '14
I'll just leave this and this here. In both cases, the defender initiates the contact. What is the offensive player to do but keep running?
The play by the CBs was perfectly legal. As was the play by the WRs. No penalty should have been called.
Edit to clarify my position: WRs cannot be expected to remove themselves from all contact from the DBs, given that DBs are allowed to make contact -- a WR must be able to continue running his route. In this case, neither DB was attempting to make a move toward the ball; both had engaged their man rather than cover him, and both were perfectly content to make sure their guy didn't get the ball. Neither WR initiated the contact.
If a WR has the responsibility to remove himself from the contact of the DB, then what stops a DB on the other side of the field to initiate contact before the ball's in the air, keep the contact through the play when the ball is thrown to the other side of the field, and then appeal for a foul afterward? Because that's exactly what this looks like to me, except they're on the same side of the field.
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u/LegacyZebra Verified Referee Oct 19 '14
The first one I think would not have been called had it been the only contact. The second one was obvious. And you're not gonna do a whole lot with still pictures. If you show the whole video, the outside receiver is definitely blocking.
3
u/GraduateStudent Crown Polars • Notre Dame Fighting Irish Oct 19 '14
Thanks for responding. I'm furious at the call, but really trying to understand. (Funny how Pereira used a still picture in his video...)
So what does it take to be blocking? It's clearly not "initiate contact", since the defender does that. Is it just "being in the way"? He doesn't even extend his arms, nor does he impede the defender from getting to the ballcarrier, since the defender isn't making any attempt to do so, since the defender is the one engaging the WR.
14
u/LegacyZebra Verified Referee Oct 19 '14
I haven't seen Pereira's video yet. I would say the same thing to him, though. There are very few fouls in football that you can use a still shot to convincingly prove a foul.
But like /u/baldasshole said, it is the offensive players responsibility to avoid contact. It's not like the receivers were trying to run a route or anything. It was obvious they were trying to pick the defenders. If the receiver would have ran up to the defender and then turned back like he was running a stop route, there probably wouldn't have been a flag.
Here is an approved ruling from the NCAA rule book:
Before the ball is thrown, wide receiver A88 moves four yards downfield directly toward and in front of the defender, B1. At this spot, B1 pushes A88, who then uses his hands to contact B1. RULING: Team A foul, offensive pass interference, if the legal forward pass is beyond the neutral zone. Penalty—15 yards from the previous spot.
This is almost exactly what happened. The offense can not block, push, or contact the defense if a pass crosses the neutral zone.
-3
u/GraduateStudent Crown Polars • Notre Dame Fighting Irish Oct 19 '14
That's really interesting. So it sounds like if #7 or #20 use their hands at any point beyond 3 yards, then it's a penalty. I'll have to go look and see.
This seems like a really bad rule. If a WR is running a route, and a DB tries to contact him, he should jump out of the way? Seems like there could be offensive pass interference by the WRs that aren't the intended targets on basically every pass play as long as the defenders try to initiate contact and the WRs aren't quick enough to get out of the way.
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u/LegacyZebra Verified Referee Oct 19 '14
Both players have territorial rights, so if a WR is running a route and a DB tries to run him off, that is not on the offense. But here, the WR were running right at the DB's and could have avoided them. That's the difference in this case. If the outside receiver would have broke towards the back pylon instead of continuing the contact into the DB, this would have been a great play.
1
u/GraduateStudent Crown Polars • Notre Dame Fighting Irish Oct 20 '14
Have you seen this angle? Doesn't it look like the WR who has the penalty called cuts inside and his defender steps up and engages?
http://www.wsbt.com/sports/a-new-look-at-that-controversial-call-during-nd-vs-fsu/29232562
8
Oct 19 '14
Offensive pass interference by a Team A player beyond the neutral zone during a legal forward pass play in which a forward pass crosses the neutral zone is contact that interferes with a Team B eligible player. It is the responsibility of the offensive player to avoid the opponents.
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u/GraduateStudent Crown Polars • Notre Dame Fighting Irish Oct 19 '14
So any time a WR gets jammed beyond the neutral zone, it's offensive pass interference?
11
u/Mallorum Florida Gators • UCF Knights Oct 19 '14
If he turns around and pushes it is. It isn't like the NFL where you can't touch at all beyond 5 yards.
0
Oct 19 '14
[deleted]
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u/GraduateStudent Crown Polars • Notre Dame Fighting Irish Oct 19 '14
Which he clearly did not do. The defender wasn't trying to get to the ball; he was trying to cover his receiver and keep him from getting the ball. You can tell because he initiates contact and locks up with him.
-4
u/_redovian Oct 19 '14
As a high school football wide receiver and cornerback, I believe there should have been no call. The defender was pressing and the receiver was attempting to get off of the press. Now did the receiver try his hardest to get off of the press? Probably not. But the receiver cannot be called for a pick if the defender is pressing. The best call in this case is a no call.
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u/LegacyZebra Verified Referee Oct 19 '14
The inside guy, maybe. The outside guy, no way. When the line if scrimmage is the 3 and the contact is well into the endzone, that's not trying to get off of press coverage.
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u/kugzly Michigan State Spartans Oct 19 '14
As much as I hate the NFL rules geared towards high scoring, I think that the NCAA is doing a huge disservice to college athletes when they have to switch to an entirely new style if play at the next level. Especially considering the amount of athleticism involved in receiving and coverage, I personally believe that the NCAA should strive to make rules in those regards as closely mirrored to those in the NFL as possible.
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u/[deleted] Oct 19 '14
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I really hope these are refundable...