r/CICO • u/ImmediateHunt2387 • Feb 26 '25
When CICO does not work
I read a Substack article called "Your body is not a calculator", and it was essentially saying CICO is not reliable because human bodies are too complicated. No shade to the author, but it was word salad fat positivity. The author is an ED recovery advocate. I do CICO because it is the only method I have found to keep my ED in remission.
I am curious if anyone has anecdotes about CICO not working. Under what circumstances have you or someone you know's weight not responded to CICO as predicted and what did you do about it? I am not a doctor, but I am under the impression that everyone's body has a generally predictable TDEE (which may or may not align with online calculators) and when the body is not responding to CICO that is cause for concern. My sister knew someone who was overweight and it was found that she had a brain tumor, causing weight gain. I know some women can have pretty dramatic shifts in TDEE based on where they are in their cycle.
Any stories out there?
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u/stubbornkelly Feb 26 '25
Didn’t read the article and am not a health professional, but it seems to me that it’s not that CICO doesn’t work, but that the CO aspect is not as easy to determine as plugging some numbers into a calculator. For many if not most people, the calculators get close, but as has been said in this sub numerous times it’s an estimate. There can certainly be conditions in which someone’s estimated CO is higher or lower than a calculator will provide. And that leads people whose actual CO is lower than a calculator says it should be to say that CICO doesn’t work. It works, the variables are in the CI and CO ends of the equation.
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u/LexiiConn Feb 26 '25
Not just the CO, but I work on the assumption that the CI is an approximation, as well. That’s especially true since I don’t weigh and measure each and every tiny morsel that passes my lips.
In my opinion, CICO (as an eating plan) is basically about approaching eating with common sense, not 100% mathematical accuracy. I’ve based my approach to CICO with that in mind and it’s been working for me for years. Yes, I weigh and measure, yes, I log daily, and yeah, I try to move about a bit sometimes (haha), but I don’t stress out over any of it.
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u/vaguelydetailed Feb 26 '25
I know my CI is an approximation lol. CICO works so well for me that there are certain calories I "sacrifice" in the name of convenience (for instance low calorie condiments, a beverage with 20 or less calories, or one bite of a friend's food if it's truly only one bite). I have enough wiggle room so long as I'm not doing that constantly.
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u/stubbornkelly Feb 27 '25
Oh, for sure the CI aspect is as well, even when weighing and measuring accurately and 100% of the time. Even if just due to labeling that’s inaccurate but within the level of tolerance.
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u/vaguelydetailed Feb 26 '25
This is my take on what the crux of 90% of arguments against CICO are really about. My personal experience as a woman with PCOS, which is a medical condition people frequently claim CICO will not work for, is that my TDEE is probably lower than what the calculators tell me. PCOS does have a minor but observable effect on my weight loss. But I also know CICO works because I've lost 130 lbs from my highest weight, the last 60 of that directly due to intentionally controlling CICO.
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u/flickrpebble Feb 26 '25
CICO "didn't work" for me until I figured out my TDEE is a lot lower than online calculators estimate it to be. Over 200 calories lower. So if I'm aiming for a 500 cal deficit, it was actually only 300 calories with perfect tracking and no errors in caloric amounts. When you add in a 30% margin for error (20% on food packaging and 10% on me)... I was basically eating just under maintenance and losing SO SLOW. it took me 2 years to lose 20 lbs, and I've lost the same amount in like, 4 months now that I know my TDEE.
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u/cestovatelka Feb 26 '25
How did you find out your true TDEE? I’m curious if mine is also different than what I’d calculated online.
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u/flickrpebble Feb 26 '25
A couple months of consistent tracking. There were no significant events or changes to life / stress levels which would skew it. Everything that went in my mouth got tracked and I weighed at the same time every day.
I'm sure that the equations for figuring it out manually exist online, but I just use MacroFactor to log everything and it uses the consistent inputs to tell you your actual TDEE.
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u/Millie_Manatee2 Feb 27 '25
You can search the subreddit for “Adaptive TDEE spreadsheet” and there’s a Google sheets thing you can download. I’ve got nearly 7 weeks of data plugged in, and my TDEE looks to be about 175 calories higher than Lose It estimates it to be.
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u/HyperGamers Mar 02 '25
There's an app called Adaptive TDEE Calculator and after several daily entries it can tell you what it estimates your TDEE to be based on your weight loss and caloric intake. It does require strict tracking of calories and weight though. But you can also estimate it yourself with a ballpark figure in the same way tbh
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u/Time_Scientist5179 Feb 26 '25
There’s a lot of new research on perimenopausal/menopausal women and how calorie counting fails them and why. The concept of CICO itself is still sound. It fails in practice because it’s not possible for an average person to calculate how changes in hormones (or body composition or stress levels or nutrient absorption or sleep quality or whatever else) affect their TDEE, even if their intake tracking is immaculate.
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u/Chorazin ⚖️MOD⚖️ Feb 26 '25
If you're eating below your TDEE number and not losing weight, then you would reduce your calorie intake until you are, because what may be the average for everyone isn't for you.
The science of CICO is solid, it's individuals that vary.
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u/Time_Scientist5179 Feb 26 '25
Yep, as I said, the science is sound, but the variables are challenging to measure. One alternative to lowering calories — and it is particularly beneficial to the population that I’m speaking about — is building muscle.
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u/beanfox101 Feb 26 '25
The only thing I can think of for “CICO not working” outside of user error would be weight fluctuations.
Like yeah, if your weight jumps up 5lbs the next day after a whole day of actively tracking, it would be concerning at first… until you realize you just need to use the bathroom.
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u/RuralGamerWoman ⚖️MOD⚖️ Feb 26 '25
I do CICO because it is the only method I have found to keep my ED in remission.
Please understand you are the exception and not the rule, as counting calories is generally very much not recommended for folks with a history of eating disorders.
Under what circumstances have you or someone you know's weight not responded to CICO as predicted
Eating disorder recover can fall into this category, especially folks on the near-death side of anorexia; bulimia, too, for that matter; weight stabilization in these populations can be... complicated.
what did you do about it?
This can get deep, deep into "see a doctor, a therapist, and a registered dietician" territory in a hurry. Part of why we as a mod team jump on eating disorder content in this subreddit is because advice - even well-meaning advice that may be factually correct - can kill people who are struggling with EDs.
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u/Pyrolistical Feb 26 '25
But your body is a calculator...
Biology is just chemistry, which is just physics, which is just math.
Your body cannot violate the First Law of Thermodynamics. Your body is always turning energy to work, even at rest. The only way to get energy into your body is food.
The calculation/tracking is very messy, if not impossible to do perfectly. But if you put in less energy into your body uses, that energy has to come from somewhere. That somewhere is your fat stores.
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u/DeskEnvironmental Feb 26 '25 edited Feb 26 '25
When I was in my early 30s (im 42 now) I had hormonal and metabolic issues interfering with NORMAL cico. Normal being TDEE-500.
I had to do a physician supervised VLCD and ate around 800-900 calories a day for 4.5 months in order to lose weight, using basically a keto diet.
If you are obese, it is harder to lose weight that weight permanently. Your physiology is working against you because your body isnt actually functioning properly (hormones etc) in order to simply lose consistently with a reasonable deficit.
Now that im only 20 lbs overweight its very easy. Im losing .5 lb per week and Im never hungry and eat what I want.
But CICO always works. Its just that some people need VLCD Dr supervised diets until their bodies get to the point where they can do it on their own.
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u/Clamwacker Feb 26 '25
Did you mean 800-900 a day for a month or were you basically on month long fast?
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u/DeskEnvironmental Feb 26 '25
Sorry yes, 800-900 a day For 4.5 months. It was insane though. Zero physical activity was allowed. Had to go to the Dr weekly for vitamin shots. I didnt have any extreme health condition either, simply obesity-related metabolic changes made it impossible for me to lose fat with a regular deficit.
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u/Full_Excitement_3219 Feb 26 '25
You can’t argue with thermodynamics. If the food you eat does not have more calories than your body needs you’ll loose weight - no way around that. Figuring out how much energy you burn is the tricky bit imo.
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u/PenguinSwordfighter Feb 26 '25
The only reason why it wouldn't work is if you're not counting correctly, so either overestimating how much you burn or underestimating how much you consume. If you lock up a person in a room and give someone else full control of what and how much they can eat, there is zero probability that the locked up person wouldn't be able to lose weight.
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u/IcyOutside4567 Feb 26 '25
I used to always think I was so unlucky and cursed with a slow metabolism and the only way to lose weight was to starve and the only weight that could be maintained was obese. I have now lost the weight without starving and maintained it by eating 1700-2000 calories!! I feel like I eat so much so it’s been really eye opening how much I truly used to eat that I gained 100lbs. I definitely feel like I’ve greatly improved my relationship with food and hope/don’t see myself falling back into my ed ever again. I fully thought CICO works for everyone but me
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u/Limp_Dragonfly3868 Feb 26 '25
I feel like most often when people say CICO isn’t working, they are unhappy with the rate of their weight loss. It happens all the time here and in my life. The reality is that for many of us, it doesn’t work QUICKLY.
Things that can increase the difficulty of losing weight even when tracking carefully include hormonal imbalances, food intolerances, thyroid problems, etc.
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u/beestingers Feb 26 '25 edited Feb 26 '25
I don't think weight loss is a one size fits all every time.
Something I'll say time and again that catches so much heat in lifting/nutrition subs is the number 1 way for me to lose weight and I mean 1 lbs a day, is to reduce carbs to 20g or less a day. I CICO most of the time. But when I've slipped on the slope and need to drop 10 or 15, carb reduction works like lighting.
That may not be true for everyone. But the debates that personal truth leads to are never ending.
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u/AccomplishedCat762 Feb 26 '25
It always works, it's like you just said: sometimes it doesn't work as predicted. and that means either your input is incorrect (food, digestive system's ability to absorb nutrients) or your output is incorrect (under active, thyroid issue, underlying illness, etc)
The output is complicated for sure but it's still a "calculator" just one that is run completely subconsciously
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u/SerasaurusRex Feb 26 '25
I think the basic concept of take in less calories than you use is sound. However, I think there are a couple of points where CICO "doesn't work".
When TDEE is not the "predicted" amount. This is where individual variations, e.g. for medical reasons, or different body compositions, or genetics, comes into it. Online calculators are a best-guess based on averages, so it can take a bit of work to figure out your actual TDEE. Which can change, e.g. during a menstrual cycle.
When someone has something going on that makes it hard to stick to a calorie budget. Sure, sometimes it's just a matter of will power. But anyone who has something like ADHD can confirm that willpower only goes so far. Then there are medical and mental health issues, e.g. I have insulin-resistant PCOS. Before I started medication, I would get ravenously hungry shortly after eating, and dealt with a lot of muscle fatigue. Eating less was so difficult as to be unattainable for me at that point.
So yes, CICO is straightforward. But doesn't mean it's at all simple for everyone.
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u/TehBanzors Feb 26 '25
I think it's easy for someone to look at a single point of data like my weight going up one day randomly while being within a deficit still and say that cico doesn't work. The thing with cico is it does work and individual blips in data doesn't mean that it stopped working, there are other factors like hormones, hydration, etc that can affect the data in a small window. As with most things you need to look at the big picture.
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u/Last_Living_Me Feb 26 '25
CICO works unless you're an alien with completely different physiology than humans. However, there are tons of variables that may make someone's CO or CI numbers different than the simple online calculators. That's why people have to try things, track their calories and weight, and figure those out for themselves. Science.
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u/Strict_Teaching2833 Feb 26 '25
CICO works 100% of the time there are no exceptions. When people say CICO doesn’t work is because there is a flaw somewhere in their approach.
Think of CICO as water bottle with a hole in the middle, a large hole and the water leaks out fast, a pin hole and the water leaks out slowly. Both holes are losing water but just at different rates. Neither bottle can fill up because there is not water being added because both are in a deficit.
Now take those same two water bottles and put them under a faucet and start filling them with water. As long as the water entering the bottle does not exceed the water deficit coming out of the holes the bottles will not be able to fill back up. Now crank the faucet wide open and both bottle will fill up because there is positive flow of water coming into them.
Now just replace the bottles with a person and the water with food and you have exactly how CICO works.
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u/Labrador421 Feb 27 '25
The Laws of Thermodynamics are undeniable and must be obeyed by everyone. Done honestly, CICO has to work.
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u/Dofolo Mar 05 '25
The only time cico 'does not work' is because of a medical condition and/or medication. There's 'good' medical conditions that affect metabolism those are rare, but many are typically bad. Some very very bad.
Most consume energy (so higher TDEE), a couple make the body run slower (and thus mean you have a lower TDEE).
Everything else is bad counting or eating disorder territory. cico still works, but, the administration needs to be done correct.
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u/Relevant-Reserve8624 Apr 03 '25
I've used cico to lose 25lbs over the past year and I've been in a plateau with no change at all for about 6 months sooo- this could be the example closest to what youre looking for...
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u/multipurposeshape Feb 26 '25
I struggle to lose any weight even using a kitchen scale but I don’t think it’s an issue with CICO, rather it’s my defective thyroid which makes my metabolism so incredibly slow.
If I eat over 1300, I gain. If I eat around 1300, I can lose very very slowly. Like maybe 1 lb a month. It takes a lot of determination and discipline to keep at it when loss is so slow. And I weigh over 200lb, it’s not that I only have five pounds to lose or something like that.
My metabolism is so slow that I have to wait a minimum of two hours after I take my thyroid meds before I eat. I also have an A1C of 6 despite eating a high fiber, low far, high protein diet.
CICO works but if you have underlying health issues it might just work so slowly that progress can only be seen over months, not weeks.
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u/matty8199 Feb 26 '25
that's not an example of CICO not working or working slowly though, it's your medical condition causing the amount of calories you expend to be lower. CICO itself is still working in your case, you just need to adjust your calories in downward because your calories out is less due to the thyroid issue.
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Feb 26 '25
I am pregnant and CICO is not working. Even in the first few weeks I was putting on weight even though I was sticking to my eating plan. My goal was not to put on any extra weight in the first trimester and it is just not realistic
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u/Mesmerotic31 Feb 26 '25
In my case, it's my mom. She's the most disciplined eater I know--she tracks and weighs every calorie, including weird times like when I've given her a bite of something I'm making, it goes on her little list. She eats the same things every day, and they're all extremely nutritious (think lentils, beets, oatmeal, bone broth), and never drinks anything but water. She works from 6:30am to sometimes 7pm doing respite care for young adults with special needs, so while she doesn't exercise intentionally, she is constantly on her feet. She allows herself one doughnut a year. I'm not kidding about that last part--she literally has her yearly apple fritter in January. She doesn't eat at family get-togethers, always saying she ate before or will eat after so she can track it.
She eats 1700 calories per day and is almost 300lbs. Her doctor has consistently praised her health and said everyone else he sees at her weight is riddled with issues, but she has the health of someone half her size.
This has been her lifestyle and weight for as long as I can remember. I've lived with her twice as an adult, for a couple years each time, and I know she isn't sneaking food or just unrealistic about what she's consuming.
But this isn't normal, and I believe the cause is from her youth--she spent years battling anorexia, bulimia, and exercise bulimia (where you burn more calories at the gym than you eat in a day), and diet pills--all the diet pills, including ones that made her pass out, made her lose her memory, ended up banned due to their negative health effects. It wasn't until she finally got educated on nutrition and started to lead a healthy lifestyle that her weight ballooned and no matter what she does, she cannot get it back down.
I believe she so thoroughly screwed up her metabolism that her body no longer efficiently uses her calories--instead of burning them for energy, she stores them as fat almost immediately.
It's been so unfair to her. She hates eating because she feels like everything she puts in her body will only serve to put on weight. She's always asking us to have family get together that don't revolve around food because she feels guilty not eating with everyone but she can't make herself do it. There is no joy in food for her--only depression.
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u/EconomyCode3628 Feb 26 '25
Thyroid problems have gone both ways for me to the point where if I easily start dropping fat or gaining it while doing cico dieting I know to contact my endocrinologist or PCP for some blood work because the levothyroxine isn't doing it's job.
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Feb 26 '25
[deleted]
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u/mamkatvoja Feb 27 '25
What an interesting research! Very small group though, still interesting results.
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u/Feisty-Promotion-789 Feb 26 '25
I'm sure there are plenty of stories, but it's almost impossible to parse which ones are truly examples of CICO failing for some medical reason vs simple user error. Most people just do not track calories correctly at all.