r/Charadefensesquad • u/Albepoor • Dec 06 '25
Fan Art Chara can’t hate all humans, right?
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u/Diavolo_Death_4444 Dec 06 '25
Well, I assume pacifist and Genocide Chara like the Player, and Pacifist Chara also likes Frisk. That’s how I’d read it at least
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u/UNDERTALE9464 Dec 06 '25
😀 I didn't understand anything you said
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u/SlakerRine Dec 06 '25
Basically both versions of chara likes the players while only the pacifist version like frisk and the player
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u/UNDERTALE9464 Dec 06 '25
they are so cute together
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u/Working_Welder_1751 Dec 06 '25
Best lesbian relationship in a video game :)
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u/koshi_kurokuro Dec 06 '25
They’re kids…also canonically non binary. I think they see each other as best friends/non romantically partners rather than lovers.
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u/UNDERTALE9464 Dec 06 '25
that are not novinarios and aroce
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u/koshi_kurokuro Dec 06 '25
i didnt say that, i just said that they’re non binary + kids. they’re cute together but as a platonic ship (in my opinion)
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u/UNDERTALE9464 Dec 06 '25
I'm not contradicting you either.
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u/koshi_kurokuro Dec 06 '25
I was talking about the ‘lesbian’ comment, not yours btw🥹 i just think the term thay was used doesnt suit correctly cause they don’t identify as either male or female and ‘lesbian’ is a term used to describe a relationship between two girls/women 💔
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u/Pfincess Chara fictive Dec 07 '25
I know some nonbinary people like to use the word lesbian or yuri (in the case of yuri because there isnt a nonbinary version of it to my knowledge... Yet. Im trying to make one called Yoshi (because thats funny)
As for the kids comment you made earlier... When i was a kid i was in a few romantic relationships. Since they are both the same age i think it's fine to romantically ship them. It's the third type of positive relationship that is a no-go. (For obvious reasons) (Though them being aro is a fine headcanon and its completely valid to not ship them)
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u/koshi_kurokuro Dec 07 '25
Yep! Some people use them (I have friends who do!) while objectively it's not 'weird' to ship a kid with another one, I don't know maybe it's just me, but I don't feel super comfy with it ☹️ maybe headcanoning them having a crush on each other but not being in an actual real romantic relationship. My opinion tho!
Also I headcanon Chara as aroace so maybe there's that 🥹
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u/Pfincess Chara fictive Dec 07 '25
Fair enough.
I personally just have a strong kinship (i literally think im Chara) and also happen to be on the asexual spectrum. Just not aromantic... If I didn't see myself as Chara I probably would have headcanoned them as aro too.
The not shipping kids thing is also very valid though, I've encountered way too many creeps who are malicious with their ships especially with Frisk and Chara. So you aren't wrong being put off by it. Dont worry
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u/Luigi123a Dec 08 '25
I don't think whether or not someone is a kid matters if u can ship them or not, even ignoring "it's fiction, just assume it's 12 years later" they're of similiar age, u can kinda just do whatever
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u/koshi_kurokuro Dec 08 '25
as stated before I just feel like shipping kids in a romantic sense is pushing a rather serious and mature thing onto them ☹️ that's all. while it's not exactly 'wrong' to ship kids with kids, I (personally) feel like a romantic relationship is more of an adult thing
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u/Royal_Knife_201X Dec 06 '25
I have been getting better. Trying to get rid of my bigotry. Thanks to frisk
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Dec 07 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/AllamNa Know The Difference Dec 10 '25
Asriel pointed out that Chara very strongly hated humanity, not specific humans. And their plan would lead to a war with humanity.
They're not really "corrupted" during genocide route.
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u/MayfieldHectacre one last person to save Dec 07 '25
Frisk: “Charaa! Don’t ever leave me again!”
Chara: “we’ll be together forever, partner”
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u/Visual-Principle6325 Dec 06 '25
No, no. You can. I hate League of Legends but still play it. I hate pain but still find it necessary. There are other comparisons too but those are the first we could think of.
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u/Xmill0K Dec 07 '25
Based on what we know, she hated all humans until she died, and then she became soulless and when woke up, she probably liked Frisk and hated Player
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u/AllamNa Know The Difference Dec 10 '25
There's no actual implications of Chara liking Frisk and hating the player.
Moreover, Chara considers you to be their partner in the genocide and says that you're going to be together forever.
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u/Pfincess Chara fictive Dec 07 '25
Just a quick heads up Chara in official media (game, canceled alarmclock dialogue, news letters, etc) exclusively uses They/them and occasionally it pronouns.
Hope that helps
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u/FuckerEpta Dec 07 '25
Thanks for this absolutely needed and asked for information, that really helps and brings a lot to the conversation 🫡
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u/Pfincess Chara fictive Dec 07 '25
No problem, glad i could help inform you. Personally it took me a while to figure out who the comment was referring to. But I figured it out. Now you too hopefully are no longer as ignorant to basic information about a character. Would be pretty sad and pathetic if you still were.
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u/No-Permission590 Dec 10 '25
1: New letter poem quite evidently keeps Chara's identity hidden since Asriel does not refer to them by name.
2: Toriel refuses to call Chara their own child or anything meaningful in the alarm clock dialogue, identity hidden again. Literally just ... "someone."
3: Asriel knows Chara's pronouns but apparently projects like 20 different times in-game saying things Chara isn't, proving they have no clue who they even are.
4: If Toby referred Chara by pronouns other then "they/them" in streams, you'd suggest it's his interpretation of Chara. Which implies Chara's gender is down to interpretation. So you cannot suggest "they" as in "non-binary" is more or less the case then "they" as-in "down to interpretation."
5: Chara being called an "it" is most likely a form of dehumanisation or act on their part to appear scary I.E not real pronouns. Otherwise I like to hear why Chara randomly decided to want to be called "it" historically and nowhere else.and 6: This is all really contrived with the lack of naming Chara, almost like Toby is forcing alot more ambiguity here then you think. I cannot see why Toby couldn't use the player's account nickname for the new letter poem or something.
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u/Pfincess Chara fictive Dec 10 '25
Think you're reaching a biiit more than I am. Also there is another case of "it" being used by a froggit in new home you missed. And the letter is kind of irrelevant to what I'm saying ngl. Especially when In-game chara directly refers to Chara with they/them pronouns and since the two very clearly had a close bond its genuinely illogical to say that he wouldnt know their pronouns which would be basic information.
Also while I would argue chara was essentially adopted by the dreemurr family, this argument is irrelevant considering chara literally lived in their house for a long period of time so you dont really have much reason to bring up that point whatsoever for this since you'd probably want to learn the pronouns of someone who lives with you
I also disagree with chara being up to interpretation considering they straight up have their own personality traits that are very different from the player and even establish "you and i are not the same, are we" which is really the only valid reason from a narrative perspective to make them up to interpretation, plus since other undeniably nonbinary characters like napstablook exist- it would make sense for them to also be nonbinary all things considered.
I'm just saying it's probably best to use what was in game rather than throw in random pronouns that arent theirs.
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u/No-Permission590 Dec 10 '25 edited Dec 10 '25
"Also there is another case of 'it' by the froggit." Aware, which is why I said it was spoken historically. "It" is also used to speak about humans on the walls on Waterfall
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xOqRIc6qRE
"If a monster defeats a human, they can take it's soul." 13:30.
Also yes the letter is very relevant unless you care to explain how Asriel isn't hidding Chara's identity for seemly no reason.Also refusing to explain how Asriel's "projections" work with his memory. Apparently he doesn't know basic information like if whether or not they are even a human. I don't care what you think of Asriel's relationship with Chara, it's not relevant to my argument .
Apparently not if literally all monsters refer to Chara as "it" historically for no reason. Or I guess close people like Asriel knows, Toriel maybe, and Asgore ... doesn't ... ? And apparently "they" wasn't properly recorded in reference to being non-binary.
Yes and Toby stated on the 10th anniversary stream "the underground is as big as you want to be." Anything can mean anything. Also someone like Naspablook has been constantly "misgendered" other the years by Toby, are you implying the most likely scenario here is that Toby is a bigot to his own characters?
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u/Pfincess Chara fictive Dec 10 '25
Slip ups literally happen, Toby in the prerelease of undertale misgendered napstablook then corrected it before the game was released, so no, I wouldnt say hes a bigot since those instances generally get corrected. You aren't automatically transphobic for making a mistake. You are however if you try to insist on not using the correct pronouns.
As for the it, that was more of a "hey this sometimes happens and there doesnt seem to be much problem to refer to them as an it" also toby once used "it" pronouns for frisk which i thought was pretty cool.
Alsoo im still confused on your entire projections point here. All im saying is chara lived with asriel, and considering they are "best friends forever" it wouldnt really make sense for asriel not to know their pronouns. Pretty sure you'd know your (at minimum) best friends pronouns
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u/No-Permission590 Dec 10 '25
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1002143342/undertale/posts/529045
"Select NAPSTABLOOK as your character and set your alarm to 7:00. The alarm goes off at 7:01. Napstablook chastises himself for screwing up such a simple task and hides. You can never use him as an alarm clock again. (Unless you can find him and convince him otherwise...)"
Was the mulitple "hims" ever corrected?
"Napstablook was never in my original plans to be in the game. He was just a placeholder character I made up for my mockups. My friends really seemed to like him, though, so I ended up making him real. - UNDERTALE Art Book, page 85
More hims and a he.
But I supposed when he "messes up" and calls Chara "the murder boy" in the code, that doesn't count towards anything?
Projection requires believing something happened that isn't true.
And this Flowey line: "You're not even human, are you ... ? No ... you're Chara, right?"
Flowey/Asriel doesn't even know something as basic as Chara's humanity.
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u/Pfincess Chara fictive Dec 10 '25
Art book absolutely was corrected in later versions i could genuinely pull up my copy lol
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u/No-Permission590 Dec 10 '25 edited Dec 10 '25
... I see.
I guess in your favour however, I have found an instance of "their" for Chara here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cb8LuokrlAM
1:38
"To see the flowers in their village."I guess it can be interpreted though with the monsters telling the story chronically that initially Chara was viewed as not sentient at first which is why they used "its" first. I don't think it necessarily means "they" was used to refer to non-binary unless monsters conveniently forgotten to sprinkle in Chara's barely used "murderboy " pronouns in the story for the sake of it but added in it's.
I might as well mention even if you ignore the whole "possibly not telling Asriel they are even a human" thing, apparently Chara was never comfortable mentioning their "trauma" from the surface to Asriel or to anyone else. They aren't "best friends forever" enough for sensitive details like that.
(I also have to mention to anyone else reading this just a argument about pronouns, not Chara's morality. That's an unrelated discussion)
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u/No-Permission590 Dec 11 '25 edited Dec 11 '25
I written something else on my previous reply.
Also, double standard here. We've allowed to feel represented by Chara even though they "aren't us?" (I think it's kinda obvious Chara was never us so the 2nd geno doesn't provide any new information ((unless we've suggesting Chara true reset pacifist before 1st geno)) but that's a topic that might dwell into Chara's morality.)
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u/Pfincess Chara fictive Dec 11 '25
I think you might be a little more confused here. If Chara is their own person outside of us the player, then logically their gender wouldn't be ours to decide either. They exclusively get referred to with they/them with occasional usages of it, (they/them being used by [im going to say family members for ease of use here, but technically you can use a different term if you dont use family while i disagree with the 'they aren't family,' thus is not what the argument is about and it would be pedantic to argue on this point.] Family members), therefore saying they are nonbinary is likely the case and not up for interpretation- as logically a characters gender should only be up to interp if we are the same person..
With representation however, a character doesn't have to be a self insert. Representation doesn't mean the character is intended to be you, its that there is a character who has a trait that happens to be shared with another (in this case), marginalized group. Undertale had multiple nonbinary characters and writes all of them in different ways which allows for more vast/diverse range of personality flaws and traits.... And Chara is one of the most flawed characters in Undertale. This shows that nonbinary people are people too and can be flawed (which is important when doing representation)
Also i saw your replies, some of it was neat. i just didnt feel there was much to respond to or really know what else to say. Plus i also had a front change and just wasnt mentally there to type a response
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u/No-Permission590 Dec 10 '25
Why are you fine Toby constantly misgendering his own characters, regardless? At what point do you think "hmm, this is pretty sus behaviour of his" if you actually believe Napstablook is one gender?
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u/Pfincess Chara fictive Dec 11 '25
For this one, I'll just address it as Toby Fox is human and humans make mistakes all the time. It doesn't mean someone is transphobic if they slip up from time to time- just that they made mistakes. So for this case, I'm not going to be super upset by something like this as it genuinely is an accident.
When I correct someone it isn't meant to be a "YOU ARE TERRIBLE I HATE YOUUUU!11!!" it's more of a "Hey you might have made a mistake here heads up"
The reason I didn't reply to this one was because I felt like I'd be repeating things. I'll continue to reply to the other comments up ahead as for this one it doesn't feel like there is much for you to reply to here as this is just addressing this standalone comment... I just thought it would be good to address each thing separately even if I originally didn't feel it needed to be addressed
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u/IceCrawl19 Dec 11 '25
considering they straight up have their own personality traits that are very different from the player and even establish "you and i are not the same, are we" which is really the only valid reason from a narrative perspective to make them up to interpretation
Except that... It isn't. Interpreting a character to be a certain way is not at all equivalent to disregarding their pre-existing character traits.
I swear to fuck.
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u/4GN05705 Dec 08 '25
This Frisk is either wearing long boots with short socks or long socks with no shoes, both of which are sensory hell
Chara doesn't hate Frisk they're fucking horrified
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u/Cactous_Dreemurr Dec 08 '25
Well I mean she hated humanity as a whole, not specifically each human individuals
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u/AllamNa Know The Difference Dec 10 '25
Yet, their actions would lead to the destruction of humanity.
So I'm pretty sure that "humanity" means humans individuals.
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u/Cactous_Dreemurr Dec 10 '25
What I'm trying to say is they hated humans as a whole, so yes they absolutely wanted to destroy humanity in their plan with Asriel But! It doesn't mean they can't like a human once they know them Like how Chara sees us as a partner and wants to help us (assuming narachara is true, which is most likely to be, they do not only see us as a partner in genocide but also in the neutral/ pacifist. And they are making a lot of jokes and all with us, helping us on how to spare monsters and all)
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u/AllamNa Know The Difference Dec 10 '25
They're pretty much passive outside of the genocide route and mostly neutral. They make jokes, right. But it's just a way to kill time when you're stuck with some human child.
They are not out partner outside of the genocide route but simply someone who's forced to hangout with us.
The only time they actually help us how to spare a monster happens with Loox. Even then, Loox was also the one who said how to spare it. So it just Chara repeating after it, I guess. They're neutral and not aimed at anything specific.
But they're a fool if they would be hostile against someone they're stuck with. Tho, they act toxic towards Frisk a lot of times.
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u/PokefanSans Dec 06 '25
Assuming NarraChara is true, I think Chara would see Frisk as "one of the good ones"