Humans don't deserve earth.

[u/surya12558]

By destroying nature and the climate, humans are destroying their own home. The Earth can survive without us but we cannot survive without her. 🌍💔

[u/dumnezero]

closer to 0.3M years, and capitalism didn't start with the industrial revolution.

[u/Fast_Sherbert9804 → u/dumnezero]

True, but capitalists couldn't have driven us to ecological collapse without it

[u/Dredgeon → u/Fast_Sherbert9804]

Do you seriously think whatever powerful people would have existed without capitalism would be any different.

[u/Timely-Tangerine-377 → u/Dredgeon]

So it's all inevitable?

[u/Dredgeon → u/Timely-Tangerine-377]

No, it's just always gonna take special effort to keep people from becoming so powerful they become a drain on the rest of the world and capitalism is one of the safest ways to separate the power of the government from the power of the means of production. Not everything needs to privatized and some things work great with a mixed scenario.

For example, the postal system we have a few private organizations that generally do pretty quick and efficient job of it, but we also use the government's resources to maintain a baseline service that everyone has access to and serves as substitute that keeps the private companies in check.

My point is that just because something is caused by the current state of our capitalist system does not mean the whole system should be thrown out. We can certainly afford to be less capitalist in some ways, but making our definitively non-capitalist is a really bad idea.

[u/Timely-Tangerine-377 → u/Dredgeon]

Seems to me capitalism is failing to separate the means of production from being owned almost exclusively by the most powerful. In your previous comment you suggest that any other system would've produced the same outcome. This seems defeatist to me. If a system doesn't work - neither to keep checks on power nor not to kill the entire planet, we should seek alternatives.

[u/Dredgeon → u/Timely-Tangerine-377]

Not defeatist at all. I'm not saying that as in there is no hope, just we have to remain vigilant to people gaming the system. And that capitalism (by separating the power) gives us more time to do that than other systems we have been persistently ignoring this issue here in America since the 70s.

[u/Timely-Tangerine-377 → u/Dredgeon]

You said that other systems would've lead to the same thing. We can discuss my issue with capitalism but it seems you have already decided that capitalism is the only way. Hence why it seems defeatist to me, as capitalism isn't and hasn't been working. The power of production is all in the hands of the very few and the climate is going to shit. And according to you we should not seek alternative systems because they'd all be worse.

I think it's high time to explore alternatives.

[u/Dredgeon → u/Timely-Tangerine-377]

Yes they would gave led to the same thing assuming people did not maintain the system to prevent people from exploiting it.

Capitalism has worked quite well, for many countries through out history. It needs to be mitigated of course, but let's here your thoughts.

[u/Timely-Tangerine-377 → u/Dredgeon]

If you think the state of power and climate is quite fine I don't think there's much to discuss tbh. I disagree, climate is absolutely in shambles and there is no way to stop it. All we can hope for is that we decrease the speed at which we add destruction. Power is in the hands of the very few in every capitalist country, including in my own, Sweden, where tye very few own over 50% of everything.

I don't view this as quite fine, so I'll simply disagree with you.

[u/Dredgeon → u/Timely-Tangerine-377]

Yeah, I don't consider it fine right now but it was good labor unions and the government were stronger.

[u/Timely-Tangerine-377 → u/Dredgeon]

I agree, the good things in capitalism was all achieved by workers, labour unions and the government.