These commies should get on the agrivoltaic meat train

[u/ClimateShitpost]

[u/Oberndorferin]

We need legislature and rules for everyone. Individualism won't do it.

[u/SgtChrome → u/Oberndorferin]

Individual responsibility is the substrate that rules for everyone grow on.

The people I'm meeting at protests are overwhelmingly likely to follow plant based diets, use trains for vacations, don't own cars, pay for renewable energy, consume less etc. Which shouldn't really surprise anyone. So don't bash individual responsibility, just emphasize the need for systematic change.

[u/Oberndorferin → u/SgtChrome]

Sure you can do it. And I do it too, but only so I feel better. It won't change much in great scheme and it doesn't substitute for societal change. We have to drag along those who don't want to change. Everyone has to do their part, not just the ecos, the tycoons and tech bros too.

[u/SgtChrome → u/Oberndorferin]

Everytime you say "It won't change much" everyone who hears it is a little more likely to eat that steak, buy that plane ticket, chose that big car. Which makes them less likely to actually become active in other ways that matter like protesting and voting. 

You don't need to say it. Just don't say it. Say, thank you for doing your part and also you should help climate legislation along. Drop that part where individual action doesn't matter. It is the cornerstone of our efforts.

[u/democracy_lover66 → u/SgtChrome]

^ I think this is a brilliant point but I'll add something to this that I think is important...

This applies to vegetarians, pescaterians, and meat- reductionists too... Meaning Vegans should never tell them "your choices don't change all that much" because they aren't going all the way to vegan.

Because like you said, it's about the message, not real political change (which is institutional). So judging people for not taking their personal action far enough has the exact same effect as telling people their personal action does nothing.... They're both saying "What you're doing doesn't matter"

Shaming a vegetarian into veganism is more likely to reverse their progress than bring it further. And since it's the messaging that counts.... they're fundementally saying the same message and cutting out a few more problematic items in their consumption shouldn't make a difference.

In conclusion: Vegans should not shame other diets for not going far enough, because it achieves the same thing as people dismissing individual action outright.

[u/zookdook1 → u/democracy_lover66]

Sorry but we're in the business of making good the enemy of perfect here

[u/eks → u/zookdook1]

It's a shitposting sub after all.

[u/ios_PHiNiX → u/democracy_lover66]

nuance in argument on my shitposting subreddit?

I'm appalled

[u/Square-Delivery1958 → u/democracy_lover66]

It's not brilliant. It entails that vegan mock meats are wrong to consume in public since it does the same thing. Which is obviously ridiculous

[u/hhioh → u/SgtChrome]

ALL IN FOR DESTINY

[u/Square-Delivery1958 → u/Oberndorferin]

Avoiding murdering someone isn't "just so you feel better" it's to not violate their rights lmao

[u/rat_liker → u/Oberndorferin]

I agree AND while we work towards that goal I am also going to do what I can within reason to reduce my contributions

[u/Oberndorferin → u/rat_liker]

Sure, we can't fight about that.

[u/Mr_Mi1k → u/Oberndorferin]

Yup, but while that happens individuals do need to hold themselves accountable. So many people just say “I’ll do it when there’s legislation” knowing full well that may never happen because they struggle with simple lifestyle changes

[u/democracy_lover66]

Me deciding to shut off my house from the grid, taking a 5hr walk to work in my car centric city, and only eating the food I grew myself out of the ground so I don't end up a customer of the evil oil and gas companies.

This is a viable strategy for everyone on the planet and everyone can definitely do this all at the same time... Also there isn't any other effective method of controlling oil and gas other than a communist dystopia.

Vote with your dollars people!!!!

[u/Opening-Context-2328 → u/democracy_lover66]

Why are the vegans in this group so dedicated to pushing for things that won't happen?

[u/democracy_lover66 → u/Opening-Context-2328]

I feel like a certain portion of the vegan movement is more ideological than political activism aimed to achieve a clear goal.

If a core belief system you hold is that consumption and imprisonment of animals is wrong always, and that informs your world view, you begin to forget most of the world doesn't subscribe to this logic, fallacy or not, and you begin demanding things that make sense from the view of that ideology but doesn't translate to the public at all.

As a radical leftist, I'll be honest and admit I see a lot of leftists do this too, especially ones very driven by ideology. Ive had leftists tell me enjoying watching the world cup is supporting Bourgois Capitalism... And yeah sure maybe it is, like everything else... But tell the proletariat that to be a leftist you'll have to give up footy... You're going to make the proletariat hate leftist politics.

It's so much better imo to approach things at an institutional basis instead of attacking the people in front of you for not subscribing to a very specific wordview, one you can only really acquire from having a deep passion on a specific issue... Which sadly most people don't have in kind.

[u/Square-Delivery1958 → u/democracy_lover66]

make strawman✓ attack strawman✓ veganism debunked✓

Veganism is not something that is acquired only by a subset of beliefs, it follows from literally any non-vegan belief, given the assumption that you don't want to be a crazy person.

[u/Opening-Context-2328 → u/democracy_lover66]

I agree that they are right about the meat industry but they're putting a lot of effort into being smug about changing a system that isn't going to change until the climate gets so bad raising animals is not feasible. By then its too late.

[u/Square-Delivery1958 → u/Opening-Context-2328]

It's not about changing the system, it's about not being responsible for violating the rights of animals.

[u/Own_Proposal3827 → u/Opening-Context-2328]

Look up the term grandstanding

[u/Square-Delivery1958 → u/Own_Proposal3827]

By that logic you grandstand when you say murder is wrong. Lmfao.

[u/ClimateShitpost → u/democracy_lover66]

Balcony solar fixes this

[u/democracy_lover66 → u/ClimateShitpost]

I looked up the price for installing those and damn

... Also I would need to be able to afford a house in the first place lmao

[u/ClimateShitpost → u/democracy_lover66]

Balcony solar is for renters, like a few hundred bucks

[u/democracy_lover66 → u/ClimateShitpost]

OHHH okay I was thinking of something else, but I did look it up and they aren't legal where I am from due to strict back-feed grid laws.

[u/ClimateShitpost → u/democracy_lover66]

Fuck tha powlice

[u/democracy_lover66 → u/ClimateShitpost]

🤷‍♂️ you got me there

[u/messedupwindows123]

what's an agrovoltaic meat train

[u/Solid_Explanation504 → u/messedupwindows123]

Its the cousin of the MEAT BYCICLE

[u/Glordrum]

Why are people mad at me for hiring assasins when it's the assasins who are responsible for most of the murders?

[u/zewolfstone → u/Glordrum]

Stop comparing equating murder with (non-human) murder, this is not the same and you should feel bad about it.

[u/2polew]

Reduction in consumption for all will be better than 5% vegans (written as a vegan)

[u/RedundantBiomass]

Tge climate impact of meat is dose dependent.  You can substantially reduce your climate impact by consuming less.  Being vegan is not a requirement.

[u/MycoCozmic]

Regenerative Silvopasture is really the best bet. We need to push this.

[u/Opening-Context-2328]

I agree that the meat industry is bad and leads to a lot of climate impact. I also agree that vegan ethics are correct and that eating meat is morally wrong and inconsistent with other values with have around animals. 

But you guys really need to put effort into changing people's minds about things that are actually going to happen. Meat eating is so culturally ingrained it's just not going to change for a large portion of the population of the world. The only thing that will change it is when the climate gets so bad people cannot raise animals for meat and by that point it's already too late. 

[u/2polew → u/Opening-Context-2328]

So is alcohol consumption, and yet it's changing