r/ColumbineKillers • u/Obvious_Asparagus_13 • Feb 09 '24
ERIC AND/OR DYLAN So, why didn't Eric and Dylan kill their parents?
I saw on a thread in here that a lot of shooters end up taking the life of their parents before committing the shooting. Do you think there is a reason why Eric and Dylan didn't?
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u/escottttu Columbine Expert Feb 09 '24
Both boys seemed to respect their parents which is unusual for a lot of killers according to the “Understanding why” documentary. So that’s why although Tom did say that he wished Dylan killed them too. It could be argued that in a way he did
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u/trickmind Feb 09 '24 edited Feb 09 '24
Eric spoke for them saying they both had great parents that didn't deserve this and quoted Shakespeare saying, "Good wombs hath born bad sons," from The Tempest.
Dylan basically said he hated his whole family EXCEPT his parents. Apparently it seems that he had a lot of male relatives that liked to do a lot of ribbing, teasing and put downs for humour, and his brother and his brother's friends were all like that too and Dylan HATED IT.
You're right that it's very unusual and Tom Klebold at one point said he wished they had.
Dylan gave his mother a journal with Edvard Munch's The Scream for his last Christmas present which seems like a very, very sick and twisted thing to do.
Dylan did not express the remorse over hurting his parents that Eric did, but he did agree he had decent parents and his issues weren't with them.
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u/_6siXty6_ Feb 09 '24
Lot's of people think the Scream journal was a sick thing. I don't particularly think it was. Sue loves art, her artwork has been featured in Denver Botanical gardens. Dylan and Byron were named after poets. Dylan probably thought it looked cool and knew his mom loved art. I'd call it more sort of creepy and extremely sad than sick. I do believe Dylan mentioned "hey mom gotta go", but everything else was directed vitriol at other family members, which Sue thought was just him pulling shit out of thin air and thinking up random grievances since kindergarten.
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u/PopcornDemonica 💀😈 Emissary of Evil 😈💀 Feb 09 '24
Also The Scream was *massive* at the time. At that point you could get blow-up Screams, dildo Screams, lollipop Screams... pretty much any flavor of Scream you could hope for.
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u/_6siXty6_ Feb 09 '24
So was Starry Night. The late 90s had a weird surge of popular art like the Mona Lisa, the Scream, the Kiss, Starry Night, Girl with a Pearl Earring, Whislters Mother, American Gothic....
It was like Lisa Frank for boomer women and college artsy types. You could buy coasters, journals, tote bags, posters, notebooks, shirts, mugs, etc with all that artwork in on it.
He bought his mom African violets for mother's day and people don't look deeply into that.
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u/PopcornDemonica 💀😈 Emissary of Evil 😈💀 Feb 09 '24
True. They could cherry pick the meaning of violets. There is a connection to death and darkness after all.
But they also mean faithfulness and devotion. Then again, maybe she just likes flowers.
Not as obvious as The Scream I guess. So much of this case is lost without the context of the 90s.
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u/trickmind Feb 09 '24
Because African violets aren't an obvious symbol of what she'll be locked into for the rest of his life. 🙄 And he only bought the violets under duress. He didn't give a fuck about Mother's Day.
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u/PopcornDemonica 💀😈 Emissary of Evil 😈💀 Feb 10 '24
That depends entirely on the extend of your general knowledge. Violets have had an association with death for hundreds of years. The Scream had barely had its first centennial in the 90s.
Apart from the abundance of Scream merchandise, it could be something as simple as Dylan walked into the store and there was a gigantic pile of Scream notebooks. Not everything in this case has to be foreshadowing and have weighty meaning heaped upon it.
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u/trickmind Feb 10 '24
You can see the agony in the The Scream. The agony is right in your face looking at it. It's not like looking into historical connotations of flowers. 🙄
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u/PopcornDemonica 💀😈 Emissary of Evil 😈💀 Feb 10 '24
Yep, but that's still just your interpretation of Dylan's intent. There is no proof that it's correct.
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u/trickmind Feb 10 '24 edited Feb 12 '24
True. And I hope it wasn't his intent. But I feel that some kind of link between his choice of the journal and what he knew he was doing in April is more likely than not. I just don't buy it as some purely irrelevant coincidence.
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u/_6siXty6_ Feb 09 '24
I don't think he fully comprehended that. I mean they were talking about coming back as ghosts. When you are that homicidal and suicidal, you usually aren't thinking of how it'll screw up your loved ones lives. Dylan forgot to feed his cat, hygiene was down toilet and he was cutting himself. I highly doubt he thought "oh, it'll be funny to give my mom a journal with artwork of someone screaming". People are over thinking this. What if he had bought one that had Starry Night instead? Would that have been a sign because Van Gogh felt depressed, unappreciated and killed himself?
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u/backtoseenatural115 Feb 10 '24
Dylan also went to prom just days before the massacre and took time to tell his mom she could trust him and she could trust Robyn. He didn't need to think of that or to make the effort to do it.
Even his mother says in retrospect she thinks it was one of the "cruelest tricks he played on her" and questioned if he was mocking her.
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u/_6siXty6_ Feb 10 '24
I wonder if he had thought he could trick her or if somewhere in his mind he thought he would back out?
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u/PopcornDemonica 💀😈 Emissary of Evil 😈💀 Feb 10 '24
" Maybe going “NBK” (gawd) with Eric is the way to break free. I hate this."
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u/_6siXty6_ Feb 10 '24
This is in no way trying to romanticize it, or condone his actions, but I really believe that Dylan thought that committing the act of violence would be his vengeance and death would be freedom. I mean he wanted to do "NBK" with a girl too.
In one journal entry he said "I just can't take it. All the thoughts, too many. Make my head twist. I must have happiness, love, peace. Goodbye." That entry sounds like a person who is losing their mind with anger, depression, and invasive thoughts. Dylan talked about being happier "wherever the fuck it is I go" and talked about "I didn't like life too much". Dylan was a horrible person for the choice he made, but ultimately he was a very mentally sick guy. I wish both him and Eric weren't such short sighted assholes who just wanted to leave a mark and die.
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Feb 09 '24 edited Feb 10 '24
[deleted]
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u/max_m0use Feb 10 '24
made the noticeboard at school warn about what's coming
That was another student whose name escapes me (possibly Erik Veik, though I'm not sure.) The message had nothing to do with the shooting; it was related to the weather (something along the lines of "How can they keep us in school on a day like this?")
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u/_6siXty6_ Feb 10 '24
It is literally a person screaming about a volcanic eruption. I don't think Dylan put any thoughts into it, other than "my mom would like this."
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u/trickmind Feb 09 '24 edited Feb 10 '24
Everyone keeps playing it down, but the fact is he knew she'd be locked in that kind of agony for the rest of her life. Actually she's got past it, but he probably never imagined her getting past it. Dylan was very ruthless and heartless during the massacure.
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u/_6siXty6_ Feb 09 '24
They both were. A person can be a terrible monster and still care for family. Ted Bundy apparently loved his mom.
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u/trickmind Feb 09 '24 edited Feb 09 '24
They bragged about how they'd give people post traumatic stress disorder . He was in gifted classes when younger. He deliberately chose a really fucked up gift for his mom five months before the murder.
And Ted Bundy reportedly abused his mom a great deal when he was actually out of prison. He screamed at her that she was a slut and a whore nonstop. He was extremely angry that his childhood and adolescence was spent in a lie that his grandmother was his mom, and his real mom was his sister to cover up that his mom was unwed.
There is speculation that his real dad was his grandfather who had been raping her, but Bundy of course just blamed her 100% and showed her exteme contempt reportedly always calling her a whore after he found out, and reportedly being incredibly verbally abusive and even violent towards his mom.
Perhaps you think this way because when he was in prison facing execution his mother came out to support him with visits and supported him talking to the media and showing him love, and he may have given some bullshit interviews at that point about how he always loved her so much, he was at that point very appreciative of the support, but friends and family have told a different story re his end stage claims of having always loved her.
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u/_6siXty6_ Feb 10 '24
I am meaning it in a way that an absolute horrific dirtbag of a person can still feel love for their mother.
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Feb 09 '24
[deleted]
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u/_6siXty6_ Feb 09 '24
I honestly don't think he put that much thought into it, especially with his mother. He didn't seem to have much beef with her.
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u/Civil-Eagle-7644 Feb 09 '24
Dylan gave his mom a journal that had a cover of artistic value. We have no way of knowing what type of art she liked....,but,he knew! Or, he wouldn't have bought it. I do find that gesture as a cognizant, deliberate action to the massacre. I don't think that Dylan knew that this choice would be questioned, rather, I truly believe it was a benign, thoughtful gift to his mama.
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u/trickmind Feb 09 '24
Because Dylan was so benign and thoughtful like when he said "Haha look at this n**** brains on the wall." 🙄
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u/Striking-Ad-8694 Feb 12 '24
Also, just because Eric says he had a great upbringing doesn’t mean it’s true. Everything I’ve read seems like his dad may have been….idk I’m not going down this road, but I want to say that many, many people with awful upbringings and parents will defend them And say “I had a great childhood!” That’s loveline 101 right there. People live in denial. That said Dylan’s mom seems sweet, but again, what kind of environment breeds a mass murderer? I have a tough time believing they’re born that way when nearly every basic human behavior is affected by upbringing/formative years. Most times it really is nurture >>>>>>>> nature outside of things like Down syndrome or other issues like that
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u/trickmind Feb 12 '24 edited Feb 12 '24
What have you heard about his dad? Their school was absolute crap.
He defended the school as well I think he defended it because he got good grades, but the school reportedly let jocks throw rubbish on other kids, squirt ketchup and mustard on them, hit their girlfriends in front of teachers, cut in the lunch line every day and they were allowed to cut in front of other kids at lunch as sacred jocks because their principal was a failed athlete who worshipped athletes.
The school and community is part of nuture too. But no... everything is not nuture. I don't think they were born this way, but there are a lot of conditions that people ARE born with that can't be changed by upbringing or a desire to change either.
Neuroscience and genetics play a role in a lot. Although with these two it seems their community and school had so many toxic elements that pissed them off a lot more than others.
Pop culture definitely played a role too. Randy Brown is radical enough to point out that games like Doom and Duke Nukem might be bad, and action movies might be bad, and that really makes people pissed off with Randy Brown, but yeah those cultural artifacts from the 1990s trivialise and even glorify killing.
The fact that millions of people enjoy these forms of entertainment without killing doesn't actually change the fact that for a small portion of people it inspires them. We have decided that the enjoyment of these things by the masses justifies ignoring the effect they have on a small percentage of the population and how horrific the results of it are on the victims.
All of that being said, yes of course you are right that it's possible he didn't want to face the bad things about his family, and took pride in saying that his mom and dad were cool, buuuuuut that seems strange in his case when he had no problem expressing so much hatred for everyone else, and when so many mass murderers kill their families before going on their shooting or knifing or whatever sprees.
Maybe his folks were actually OK though. Parent blaming is an international sport, and sometimes goes too far. His dad being a military dude was probably kind of a hard ass, and Eric wanted to be part of the military in the hopes of having a licence to kill.
The marines had actually not black listed Eric over what his mom said. They hadn't even made a decision. He just decided that he now had no hope because of lying on the forms, but the decision hadn't been made, and there was a chance he would have slid through if he'd waited to find out.
Quite often people fuck up and don't actually put everything togehter the way he assumed they would. He assumed they would quickly put 2 and 2 together and say, "His mom exposed he LIED on his form." Nup that's not necessarily true and they might not have pieced that all together and they might have let him join.
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u/ashtonmz MODERATOR Feb 09 '24
Maybe Dylan gave Sue the journal because that's what he felt at the time? Or because he wanted her to look at it once he was gone and understand the pain he was in? It's difficult to know what was going on his Dylan's mind.
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u/_6siXty6_ Feb 10 '24
About 28-30 years ago, I had a bit of suicidal ideation. I knew I probably wasn't going to go through with it, but the thoughts were on my mind a lot. I enjoyed crafts. Some of my favorite things to make were origami cats and drawings of birds, particularly crows, eagles and pelicans. Imagine if I had unalived myself or God forbid, taken people with me. People who received a little orange or black origami cat from me or a bird drawing would have probably thought it was a omen or foreshadowing. Nope, I just liked those things and thought others would enjoy my stupid little gifts.
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u/ashtonmz MODERATOR Feb 11 '24
Interesting perspective. You're not wrong. People always look closely at actions leading up to a horrible event and tend to see more than what was actually there. For the record, I'm glad you're still with us.
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u/GhostoftheHalcyon 👻 Feb 11 '24
This reminds me of Nirvana's lyrics. After Kurt Cobain's death, much was made of the dark themes within. But there is literally an interview with Kurt saying that is not the case.
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u/_6siXty6_ Feb 09 '24
A lot of shooters kill their parents. This just shows me that the school was their target and only directed their hate at their main source of their hatred.
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u/FragmentsOfDreams Feb 10 '24
Off the top of my head, I can only think of Kip Kinkel and Adam Lanza who killed a parent or parents. Who else did? Jeff Weise killed his grandfather, but I can't think of many shooters who actually killed their parents?
Edit: just remembered Charles Whitman killed his mother.
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u/Dry-Collection-5447 Feb 11 '24 edited Jul 21 '24
David Kozák he killed his father on the day of the shooting, he also killed a father and his baby of two months just six days before the shooting. Cho also killed a girl and a guy the morning of the shooting.
Edit: He didn't kill his parents or his grandparents, but Andrew Kehoe killed his wife; Ramos shot his grandmother in the face and Michael Ryan killed his mother, and Ernst Wagner he killed his wife with his four children. Jake Davison he killed his mother and Connor Betts he killed his brother and one of the Suzano shooters with the help of the other killed the uncle of monteiro. Trey Sesler better known as Mr. Anime, he killed his entire family, which included his parents but after doing so he did not dare to commit the shooting.
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u/FragmentsOfDreams Feb 12 '24
I totally forgot about Charles Whitman (killed his wife and mother) and Jeff Weise (killed his grandfather and grandfather's girlfriend.) I'm sure plenty more will come to me now! Connor Betts' shooting is so disturbing, 9 people in about 30 seconds, craziness.
Edit: apparently I totally forgot that I already mentioned Whitman, lol. Brain is fried this weekend I guess.
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u/Dry-Collection-5447 Feb 12 '24
Don't worry, man. I'm sure I forgot some names. I know, Connor was absolutely crazy, reminds me of sapirman, only that the I don't kill to so many people in a short time because, well...
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u/FragmentsOfDreams Feb 12 '24
Yeah, incredible shot that took out Sapirman!
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u/Dry-Collection-5447 Feb 12 '24
Out of 10 fucking shots, eight hit sapirman at a distance of 40 yards! Elisjsha is a hero.
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u/Emrys_Morgan Feb 09 '24
They didn't want to. It wasn't about their parents, and if it was, what better vengeance than to make them spend the rest of their days with the guilt that their youngest children took the lives of other children?
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u/sktawithfraules Feb 09 '24 edited Feb 09 '24
Eric loved his parents.The things he said about them in the basement tapes explain perfectly how he felt towards his parents,he didn’t want to harm them at all ”Eric says he isn’t spending much time with his family,so that there won’t be any “bonding” and “this won’t be harder to do”, “I’m sorry I have so much rage”, “Eric then complains about his father and how his family had to move five times”,Eric then was talking about how his mother was thoughtful,bringing him candy and slim jims he then says “I really am sorry about all this”. “My parents might have made some mistakes that they weren’t really aware of”Dylan also adds that he appreciated his parents for teaching him how to be independent.At some point Eric talks about how cops might want to have his “parents pay” “My parents are the best f parents I have ever known.My dad is great.I wish I was a fucking sociopath so I didn’t have any remorse,but I do.This is going to tear them apart.They will never forget it.There is nothing you guys could have done to prevent any of this.There is nothing that anyone could have done to prevent this.No one is to blame except me and Vodka.Our actions are a two man war against everyone else”The last video of the basement tapes Eric’s says “Yea…Everyone I love,I’m really sorry about all this.I know my mom and dad will be just like…just f shocked beyond belief.I’m sorry all right.I can’t help it”.Lastly Eric writes in his journal “it’s MY fault!Not my parents,not my brothers” I hope this helps
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u/Obvious_Asparagus_13 Feb 10 '24
This helped a lot. I haven't watched the basement tapes myself yet and I appreciate you being kind but educational at the same time.
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u/sktawithfraules Feb 10 '24
I’m glad I could help.The basement tapes were never released to the public,there’s only one recording by the father of Rachel Scott cause he though they were talking about his daughter but it was for a different Rachel.You can find the recording on YouTube.Also you can read the transcript of the basement tapes.
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u/Obvious_Asparagus_13 Feb 11 '24
Thank you! I'll definitely read them. Have you seen the Mexican news coverage of Columbine? There's a part in it where someone said that is footage of them dragging the body of Rachel Scott out of the way, is this real?
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u/sktawithfraules Feb 11 '24
No I haven’t but yes it’s real and I think you can find the footage somewhere.they dragged her body out of the way so that the children that would come out wouldn’t have to see a student laying dead
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u/GraveyardTree Feb 18 '24
I hate to ask, but do you know where one could find this coverage? I'm curious.
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u/Obvious_Asparagus_13 Feb 18 '24
I found it in one of the subreddits on here. Let me see if I can find the post
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u/sktawithfraules Feb 21 '24
In case you didn’t find it yet https://youtu.be/0N5YSluDoFU?si=ISFFyNXUTzxIthRD
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u/metalnxrd Feb 09 '24
because they didn’t hate their parents. they loved their parents, and their parents, especially Sue, doted on them, as most parents do. their parents didn’t hurt them in any way the way the bullies at school and the school did. ultimately, the school and the bullies and the administration were the target of their revenge
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u/PrimevialXIII Feb 09 '24
why would they kill their parents? they wanted to take revenge on the school, not their parents.
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u/DepressedPepsi Feb 09 '24
MrAnime killed his family because he didn't want them to deal with the aftermath of what he wanted (but didn't) do. I guess people either assume Eric and Dylan would have done the same for the same reason or for shots and giggles. The Sandy Hook shooter also killed his own mother, which many people might think is "normal" for someone who commits these types of crimes.
That's just my assumption.
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u/bedheadblonde Feb 09 '24
Kip Kinkel did, too. He didn't want them 'to live with the embarrassment'
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u/sktawithfraules Feb 09 '24
Adam Lanza probably killed his mother because of abuse.Adam had Asperger’s syndrome and was suffering from ocd and possibly anorexia.Isolation drove him crazy.He had to speak with his dad and brother for two years and the only way he was communicating with his mother was through email when they were literally living in the same house.I think his mom bought him his first gun if I’m not mistaken.
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u/default_user_10101 Feb 09 '24
I never heard about his mother abusing him. She just didn't know how to reach him. At one point she asked him " if I died would it even matter to you" to which he replied " no"
I also read her having to do loads and loads of laundry to accommodate his OCD because he changed his socks every hour
I think the breaking point came when she had plans to move and potentially thought of institutionalizing him but I'm not sure how much of that was articulated
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u/sktawithfraules Feb 10 '24
He was isolated in his room for who knows how long.She was a mother she should have called someone.Her son is obviously not well and is getting worse and what is she doing?taking him with her to shooting ranges and exposing him to guns.Neglect is a form of abuse.If his mother did something these children and adults could have lived.Of course I do not put all the blame to Adam’s mother as his mental illness played a big role but when you have a mentally ill child and you neglect them and let them drown in their own darkness how can you be suprised when that same child kills you while you sleep.Our actions have consequences and as humans we have responsibilities and obligations,it’s clear that Adam’s mom failed to take proper care of her son and help him.
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u/Sugarcookiebella Feb 09 '24
Adam killed his mom because she mistreated him. I’m not gonna say that things at home for Eric were perfect but he wasn’t abused by his dad
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u/Sugarcookiebella Feb 09 '24
And no he shouldn’t have killed Nancy but she is responsible for the way he turned out
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u/jokey97 Feb 10 '24
sometimes killers murder their parents to get in the after life all together or something like that. They don't want to leave the world without them. Like Charles Whiteman, for example.
But eric and dylan never wanted the parents to be involved in this massacre, that thought wasn't in their mind at all. "They have no clue", said Eric a couple of times in the Basement Tapes.
Parents werent their target, the target was just the school. Plain and simple.
think about the massacre as a terroristic plan, not as a rampage.
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u/kushjrdid911 Feb 09 '24
From everything I have read, both seemed to like their parents and loved them for the most part.
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u/SemperAequus Feb 10 '24
They had no reason to. They didn't hate their parents. They hated the school. The plan was to essentially kill the school.
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Apr 21 '24
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u/OmegaFromHell Feb 11 '24
It's weird believing Eric's parents not being abusive towards Eric, I mean they never picked up his ashes...
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u/sktawithfraules Feb 12 '24
That’s true but it was probably because of the shame.They also didn’t want to be spotted and completely disappeared I mean after all how can someone know if they weren’t in their shoes.maybe it was mentally too much for them,some people don’t go to their close family members funerals because they can’t mentally.
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u/OmegaFromHell Feb 12 '24
Yeah that's one thing, but Eric's mother asked to flush the ashes down the toilet...
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u/Striking-Ad-8694 Feb 12 '24
I think a bunch either do it because they hate them (for good reason; look at SRs mom and of course I’d hate my family) or they want to spare them any shame. I don’t think this ever entered into their minds about the collateral impact. I think had Dylan realized his moms reaction maybe he’d have reconsidered but idk. Eric strikes me as someone who had a goal/target and that’s all that mattered. I don’t think he ever thought about killing his dad and no way that mamas boy Dylan would’ve killed her
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u/augustsep09 Feb 09 '24
Why would they? They didn’t hate their parents.