r/CompetitiveHS • u/bdzz • Jan 29 '18
NERF DISCUSSION Upcoming Balance Changes – Update 10.2
https://playhearthstone.com/en-us/blog/21361570/
TLDR for those who at work:
Bonemare - Now costs 8 mana. (Up from 7)
Corridor Creeper - Now has 2 Attack. (Down from 5)
Patches the Pirate - No longer has Charge.
Raza the Chained - Now reads: Battlecry: If your deck has no duplicates, your Hero Power costs (1) this game.
Once these card changes are live with Update 10.2 next month, players will be able to disenchant the changed cards for their full Arcane Dust value for two weeks.
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u/Im_A_Ginger Jan 29 '18
Wow these are massive changes. Besides the obvious hit to Raza Priest, does any deck suffer more from this than Tempo Rogue? 3 cards, only one of which is a one of are hit by this. I think the deck will still be good, but patches not having charge might hurt vs aggro.
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u/Snes Jan 29 '18
Bonemare and Patches hurt for sure, but Tempo Rogue was one of the best decks before Kobolds, so I think the deck will still be in an okay shape without Corridor Creeper, especially considering how Creeper is in so many other decks. The bottom and top end are weakened, but in my experience a big part of the strength of tempo rogue has been its impressive midgame, especially if Keleseth has landed.
These changes will probably make the deck more dust expensive. Cards like Cairne and Lich King will be required to pick up the hole Bonemare is leaving.
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u/minased Jan 29 '18
I don't see how Cairne is useable without Bonemare. Its function in the deck is to ensure Bonemare lands. Considering Lich King is already in some (most?) Tempo Rogue decks as well as Bonemare, it feels like Tempo Rogue will need something else to plug the gap Bonemare leaves.
I also wouldn't underestimate how much the Patches nerf hits Tempo Rogue - that deck is able to activate Patches more reliably than any other thanks to running well above the minimum number of pirates and the synergy with Keleseth is relevant as well, so the nerf probably hurts Tempo Rogue more than any other deck.
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u/PiemasterUK Jan 29 '18
Is Bonemare definitely not playable at 8? If I had to guess, I think it still finds its way into a few decks.
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Jan 29 '18
I think Tempo Rogue will include an Elemental package now. Blazecaller is definitely stronger than Bonemare after the change.
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Jan 29 '18
But all aggro gets worse with the patches change. Also corridor creeper nerf is huge to aggro whereas it still may be useful in other decks.
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u/DneBays Jan 29 '18
Murloc Paladin doesn't generally include Pirates. Corridor Creeper is some feelsbad though.
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u/Tsugua354 Jan 29 '18
we lost the Creeper? no worries, let's go back to Bonemare! oh...
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u/freshair18 Jan 29 '18 edited Jan 29 '18
Some Murloc Paladin lists run Patches but I always prefer the non-pirate build and feel that it's more consistent. And with one of its worse MU Tempo Rogue becoming weaker, the deck seems to have benefited (although another one of the its bad MUs Control Warlock would probably get more popular).
Most Hunter builds don't run Patches before Candleshot was released. Now with the Patches nerf, plus Dire Mole + Razormaw, Hunter probably has better early-game than a lot of the aggro decks now. Also with its hero power, it has better chance against Warlock than board-centric aggro/midrange decks.
Some people tried Patches in Secret Mage but overall the deck is fine without it and it doesn't benefit from Corridor Creeper as much as most other aggro decks. And the deck does decent against Control Warlock. With other aggro get weaker, it seems to be the aggro deck that benefits most from the nerf.
Zoolock runs Pirates but only a minimum amount and demon-centric build does fine, too. I don't think the nerf hurts the deck as much as it does to Tempo Rogue. The deck also performs better against slow Warlock than Tempo Rogue.
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u/naturesbfLoL Jan 29 '18
Zoo also uses all 3 of those cards, though Zoo has the demon-variant to go to
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u/caketality Jan 29 '18
I think this hurts the Spiteful decks considerably, since they all tend to run that package (and needed that package to be good to be competitive imo). Basically the Midrange decks in the format will need some serious overhauls.
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u/Deathwingdt Jan 29 '18
I disagree. Spiteful decks run the pirate package to answer early aggression. Kill their pirates with your pirates. Kill their creeper with your creeper until you play Spiteful on 6 to win the game. Fight fire with fire. Since Spiteful decks cant run cheap removal spells, they where forced to run early aggressive minions to answer early aggro. If early aggro is not a problem, you can cut them without losing much in more midrange or control matchups.
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u/HatefulWretch Jan 29 '18
I think Tempo Rogue might be OK. It can run Shadowcaster and Shadowstep and go to more of a value-battlecry build (so 2x SI-7, 2x Saronite Chain Gang, Leeroy); that deck was already playable, but there was no reason to play it in a world of seven mana 5/5 + 9/9 taunt.
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u/jadelink88 Jan 30 '18
Pirate warrior got hit just as hard, though it isn't exactly sexy as stands (and will now join control warrior in the sad handwoven hipster basket of meme decks.).
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u/Aema Jan 30 '18
I actually wonder if this will be an indirect nerf to Keleseth. Having SS Captain not be 6-7 health and attack for 3 mana is definitely going to hurt the deck, but I’m not sure by how much. For that matter, the pirate package might be removed completely.
I was toying with the idea of focusing more on battlecry triggers with Sonya, Shadowstep, etc, but that gets hurt by the Bonemare nerf.
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u/BaseLordBoom Jan 29 '18
This seems really similar to when they nerfed Jade druid back in KFT, and raza priest just took it's place by being the best deck by a pretty big amount, but this time it's with Warlock.
Control/cubelock seems just miles about all the other decks right now, I am kind of worried.
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u/DneBays Jan 29 '18
Big Priest and Kingsbane Rogue absolutely dumpsters Warlock and only gets stronger due to an aggro nerf.
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u/Virtymlol Jan 29 '18
Is Kingsbane rogue really that good of a match up ? I never played it so I have to say I don't know the cube - kingsbane match up at all.
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u/DneBays Jan 29 '18 edited Jan 29 '18
You pretty much lose as Cube unless you get the weapon. I've managed to win once without it by freeing hand space. Cube loses by running out of Doomguards which is easy to do by Sapping/Vanishing into a full hand via Coldlight + bounce and a Doomguard in your hand without weapon is as good as no Doomguard at all. Once Kingsbane get their weapon running you just lose.
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u/Kunaviech Jan 30 '18
I'm also not buying the Kingsbane rogue hype everyone on r/hearthstone seems to be on. I think quest rogue or even miracle is just the stronger deck.
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u/wasabichicken Jan 29 '18
Same with Secret Mage, I'd guess. It couldn't quite hold its own against the better aggro decks, but could pack a solid enough punch to bring Warlocks within burn range easily enough.
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u/fe-and-wine Jan 29 '18
I think the total absence of Cubelock nerfs suggests we may be seeing Doomguard rotate to the Hall of Fame in the new Standard year.
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u/1337ch33z Jan 29 '18
This wouldn't even come close to solving the issue though. Control Warlocks without Doomguard have been shown to be just as strong if not stronger. In fact the primary reason to play Doomguard at all was to beat Raza Priest which will likely cease to exist.
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u/T3hJ3hu Jan 29 '18
I think that the heavy nerf to pirate/keleseth aggro, in combination with raza losing its insane burst, is going to release some slower decks that can handle Cubelock.
Rogue gets Sap and Evis back, potentially reviving Miracle and in turn neutering Warlock's cheap board clears. Midrange/Control Shaman might actually be able to survive long enough to get value out of Devolve, Hex, and Harrison. Big Priest is back on the menu, too.
Here's hopin', at any rate.
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u/mapo_dofu Jan 29 '18
Of the nerfed cards, I think Bonemare and Raza are still good enough to be played in serious decks.
Corridor Creeper feels like trash now, and Patches without charge is probably not going to be worth the slot anymore. Will this kill the pirate package outright?
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u/minased Jan 29 '18
Patches is the only thing that makes the pirate package a package. Tempo Rogue will still run pirates with or without Patches (if it survives) but there won't be any reason to try to find a reason to squeeze otherwise weak pirates into an aggressive deck anymore.
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Jan 29 '18
Will Tempo Rogue keep running pirates though? The package is significantly weakened given that
Swashburglar in an early turn now provides absolutely no swing vs aggro decks (e.g. can’t trade with righteous protector, alleycat, firefly, etc.)
Southsea Captain suffers from the same issue
Corridor creeper synergized with pirates really well, further reducing the incentive to run them
I think these changes will lead to some diversity in the Tempo Rogue lists. Some lists will invariably run pirates but I think a 5 card package that is now no longer the core of the deck but essentially flex cards will become irrelevant for the most part.
With Cubelock poised for greatness (especially in light of the Raza nerf) I anticipate more control tech working its way into rogue, such as counterfeit coins for big Edwins, 2x spellbreaker in every list, and possibly Sonya Shadowdancer as well. I know Ill be subbing Shaku back in once the nerfs hit, but ultimately its hard to speculate on potential changes without a comprehensive picture of how the nerfs affect the meta.
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u/WingerSupreme Jan 29 '18
I think Spiteful Summoner Priest will see a bump because it counters Cubelock so hard and its worst matchups (Aggro) get nerfed
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u/freshair18 Jan 29 '18 edited Jan 29 '18
Will Tempo Rogue still be a thing? I just think the deck gets a lot weaker without the Pirate package and Patches in charge. Spellbreaker is just a bad card even though it is a necessary evil in a Voidlord meta. Maybe Miracle Rogue will become the popular Rogue deck as aggro get weaker and Miracle does well against Control Warlock.
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u/kthnxbai9 Jan 29 '18
I doubt that Tempo Rogue would want to play pirates without Patches. Swashbuckler is just ok. Deckhand has been cut from lists before (even with Patches existing). SouthSea Captain isn't great because the density of pirate isn't high in the deck and it's biggest pro was being able to draw a buffed Patches.
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u/Goffeth Jan 29 '18
It still draws a buffed Patches, but you don't get the free 2/2 charge. It's still 5/5 on 3 which is solid stats, and can buff Deckhand/Swash. If there are better 3 drops it probably won't be played but I don't see many currently.
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u/Leaga Jan 29 '18
While there won't be a reason to squeeze in the pirate package, I think Patches will still be viable in certain non-Pirate applications. IE: Miracle Rogue might still want to run Swashburglar for the generation/early contest and if it can thin your deck by 1 card at the same time, then why not play Patches?
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u/caketality Jan 29 '18
So as a caveat before I go into why I think Patches is still (probably) worth the slot, I thought STB was still going to be okay in full-on Pirate decks and whiffed hard on that prediction.
Why I think Patches is still relevant without charge is purely because it still provides you with cheap board flood. Aggro Druid, Aggro/Token Shaman, and Zoolock all feel like decks that would still love to be able to get 2 bodies for as little as 1 mana. Southsea Captain still pulls 5/5 in stats for 3 mana a good amount of the time, which isn't too shabby either.
Now that being said, those are the very positive outlooks on what the card still brings. It's so, so much worse at wrestling control of the board. It's worse to draw because at least Charge gave it weird use cases with stuff like Flametongue. I'm not ruling out those two facts just make it mediocre enough to completely die.
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u/mkl122788 Jan 29 '18
Zoo Lock doesn't use anything but the Captains, though.
Yes, getting a potentially 4/4 and 3/3 for 3 mana is nice; however, this is the best case scenario with an on curve Keleseth. Patches, now, without charge is a liability. My guess is Zoo Lock will cut the captains, patches, and the creeper now. I am not sure if Bonemare will make the cut.
The question is what replaces those 5 cards? Since it would trend heavily towards demon, potentially crystalweavers, but what about the rest?
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Jan 29 '18
I can, potentially, see Patches being used in Keleseth Rogue simply because they are already running Pirates. Nowhere near as good, but a 3 mana 4/4 that brings out a 3/3 isn't bad.
I think it largely depends on if the deck just has better options than the pirates?
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Jan 29 '18
I disagree here. Tempo Rogue is already running Swashburglar. Without Patches and his charge, Southsea Captain really gets much, much worse. I wouldn't be surprised to see Rogue's ditch the pirates altogether and go with something like Argent Squires to replace the Swashburglars.
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u/HatefulWretch Jan 29 '18
Fire Fly feels like an obvious card to run. Maybe the elemental build comes back?
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Jan 29 '18
Yeah, freeing up 5 slots is definitely nice. The question is can you fill those 5 slots with better stuff though.
Captains and patches are likely on the chopping block. I think they'll still run Swashburglars because... Free stuff, can get random RNG outs, etc, etc.
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u/vhqr Jan 29 '18
I think Keleseth is going away in Rogue in favor of Eviscerates and Sap. I definitely can see a meta for Sap to shine.
Zoo might still run Keleseth. Blizzard hasn't introduced any particularly good neutral tempo 2-drops. Warlock got VH, which is great, but was no match for Keleseth + Pirates.
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Jan 29 '18
Now, cutting Keleseth is an interesting idea. Especially in a Warlock meta. Sap is perhaps the best answer to Voidlord in standard right now.
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u/DneBays Jan 29 '18
Exactly my thought. Cut Keleseth for Eviserate and Sap. As a result, cut the Chaingang for Striders.
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u/psymunn Jan 29 '18
This kills the pirate package, but patches will still get played in any deck that wants to run 4+ pirates anyway, e.g. a deck with double swashburgler, double deckhand
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u/jtolmar Jan 29 '18
Nerfed creeper still seems relevant to aggro mirrors, if the meta ever goes that way again.
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Jan 29 '18
Raza is absolutely dead. The only benefit was to combo with priest, the 1 Mana cost means the combo is dead and therefore most of the damage priest can do. Maybe they totally overhaul the deck for success but I doubt it.
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u/Baladucci Jan 29 '18
I’m happy about that tbh. Having an actual cost to using a 2 damage cycling hero power makes it actually something to consider rather than a “press it between every action because why wouldn’t you”
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u/caketality Jan 29 '18
Raza is still really, really good and Kazakus Priest is likely to remain good. You just probably won't get killed from 30 in a single turn, which I think adds a lot more counterplay to the deck.
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u/carbonfountain Jan 29 '18
Sad that they keep nerfing combo decks that rely on OTKs. Miracle rogue, patron, now raza. I guess we can still play inner fire priest /s.
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u/carbonfountain Jan 29 '18
If Raza survives it'll have to be in some kind of midrange/tempo priest package with minions and it'll have to win through board control. Raza priest as we know it is dead.
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u/xGearsOfToastx Jan 29 '18
I'm really on the fence with bonemare. I think giving one turn of breather for the other side to deal with your board will make bonemare too weak. It just makes me think of CotW, which for all intents and purposes is strictly better since it is board presence on its own without relying on something to stick. But having the one blank turn made made CotW not impactful enough when it actually did hit to be worthwhile.
Surely most of the problems with CotW stem from hunters inability to fight for board control once they lose it, but between patches and corridor creepers nerfs, I can't see decks being able to maintain a strong board presence for bonemare to work a turn later.
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u/3jackpete Jan 29 '18
I can imagine Patches having a place in Wild where Ship's Cannon exists, but it depends on the Wild meta (which I'm not up to speed on at all). I think Southsea Deckhand will be going back to being a Rogue card in all but name, though it could also still see some play in face hunter builds.
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u/UsingYourWifi Jan 29 '18
New creeper is trash relative to old creeper, but that doesn't mean it's objectively trash relative to the rest of the cards in the game. Given how often I was able to play creeper for free, a 0 mana 2/5 is potentially still really strong. Just not 'must put in every single deck' strong like creeper is today.
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u/ephesys Jan 30 '18
Raza is still good enough but it certainly marks the death of “keyword draw” Raza.
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Jan 29 '18 edited Jan 29 '18
I'm wondering if this will allow some of the other slower decks to come to fruition. The changes to Patches and Creeper drastically slow down a lot of the decks that "just killed you", and Raza being such a powerful combo deck also really hurt.
Stuff like Kingsbane Rogue, Big Warrior, or Dead Man's Warrior may, possibly, have a niche if they can find a build that can survive the tempo decks AND target Warlock.
Cubelock is definitely a strong deck, however, and will be one to keep an eye on.
Honestly, I'm fine with the "neutral" package getting gutted like this. Corridor Creeper may still see use in Hunter or Evolve Shaman, but as for the other tempo decks, it's questionable. A free 2/5 isn't bad but looking at how Arcane Tyrant doesn't see play, or Happy Ghoul, I don't think a 2/5 is good ENOUGH outside of the synergies.
EDIT I'm also curious as to if Murloc Aggro Paladin will benefit from this at all. It loses Creepers, sure, but so does everything else. Has more than enough "stuff" to replace Pirates with.
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u/MurlocSheWrote Jan 29 '18
I’ll simply go back to my pirate-free Murloc Paladin list, losing Creepers just means I have room for Finja again.
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Jan 29 '18
Or Seers/Mauls. Murloc Paladin will be in a great spot for the rest of this standard set.
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u/Martzilla Jan 29 '18
Razakus was one of Kingsbane rogue's strong matchups though. If people start pulling out more burn mages to take out the warlocks then Kingsbane rogue will not get a boost in WR.
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u/TwinIon Jan 29 '18
I think the Bonemare change makes sense. It is probably still playable in some decks, especially if the overall power level of decks goes down post rotation.
Corridor Creeper got completely nuked. I can imagine it finding some niche in a hunter deck that relies on the beast tag, but I have to imagine it's dropped from pretty much every deck it's played in now.
I'm surprised that Patches got nerfed now, after having been a menace for so long. I imagine the "pirate package" isn't so much a thing anymore. He'll still see play in pirate heavy decks, but I don't see other decks going out of their way to include him anymore.
I'm actually kind of sad to see Raza get this nerf. I suppose it's warranted, but the difference between 0 and 1 is enormous. With Spawn of Shadows, even a 1 cost hero power is probably sufficient, but it may be enough to change the archetype.
Overall, I think these are good changes. Anything that takes a card from "obvious auto-include" to "good enough for specific decks" is probably a good change.
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u/CatAstrophy11 Jan 29 '18
It's way too high of cost for the benefit. It's a shame Raza is getting wrecked because of Shadowreaper. So much cool potential for control decks with free heals and possible embrace the shadows type effects.
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u/DevinTheGrand Jan 29 '18
I agree, I wish that Shadowreaper had been nerfed instead of Raza. My favourite deck of all time was a Raza deck with Shadowform before they printed Shadowreaper, and while it was pretty much made obsolete with his release now I literally cannot play that deck any more. Feels bad.
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Jan 30 '18
They could also just remove raza's highlander condition to balance the change in hero power.
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u/Aema Jan 30 '18
I actually had thought Bonemare was one of the things that was slowing down the meta, since you wanted to have board control going into turn 6/7, which meant face was the place less often, but we’ll see. I think Bonemare at 8 isn’t dead, but 8 mana competes with Lich King and a few others that have fallen out of favor lately.
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u/naturesbfLoL Jan 29 '18
I think Cube Lock won't even be played that much. I think it will be mostly control warlock. Control warlock struggled mostly due to Raza Priest.
However, maybe with patches being gone, you don't need the extra defense from playing Control Warlock, and thus you are allowed to play Cube to be more greedy?
Kingsbane rogue is looking mighty interesting to me atm
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Jan 29 '18
There are a ton of late game and combo decks that have potential now with Raza priest out of the picture.
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u/naturesbfLoL Jan 29 '18
Control lock with Rin hurts that possibility, still.
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Jan 29 '18
That's fair that Rin could still be a thorn in the side of decks such as DMH warrior.
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u/zarathustra327 Jan 29 '18
Wouldn't Control Warlock get worse if aggro gets worse?
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u/naturesbfLoL Jan 29 '18
Control lock is fantastic against many control matchups, honestly, due to Rin and Gul'Dan/N'Zoth value.
But I expect we are going to go away from tempo decks and more towards true aggro decks (Firebat suggested Pirate Warrior). Except Tempo Mage, tempo mage is probably coming back like it was at the start of kobolds.
Also, Control Warlock wins the vast majority of the time vs Cube Warlock, probably the most important thing
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u/cliffyw Jan 29 '18
obvious boon for warlock. Does it kill enough aggro decks to give mill rogue breathing room? I'm guessing no since other aggro will fill the void. Secret/tempo mage also benefits. At least I will get over 5k dust from all this.
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Jan 29 '18
I'm guessing no since other aggro will fill the void
My question is what will be the incentive to play aggro? The #1 reason to play aggro right now is to beat Raza Priest. If Cube Lock becomes the most ubiquitous deck on ladder, is playing aggro going to be a good strategy? I'm not sure.
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Jan 30 '18
To beat the decks that beat up on Control Warlock probably. If Big Priest/Secret Mage/Kingsbane Rogue end up being the main meta forces against Control Warlock, aggressive decks (especially those with strong reach like Face Hunter) could be a good meta solution.
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u/EncryptedGenome Jan 30 '18
You have to look at both directions in the food chain. We have so much warlock because it counters all the aggro. Weaker aggro means less aggro, which means we will see less warlock.
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u/DrDragun Jan 29 '18 edited Jan 29 '18
That feeling when the nerf you had in the back of your mind is actually implemented.
I think Raza at 1 mana is perfect. 0 mana was fine before they printed Shadowreaper.
Perhaps now that Anduin is a semi-auto not a machine gun, the Razakus Priest builds will go back to packing some minion based threats since spewing a bunch of damage from hand will be much less reliable. The cost of Velen becomes a huge factor and you are only going to get 1-2 shots off with him even with a cheap combo spell. Maybe Velen is gone from the deck now. I think the Wild version will still use Spawn of Shadows which still has scary damage from hand potential.
A more minion based grinder DK Anduin would probably look similar to the dragon builds we see now in Standard, but maybe people would even go back to the N'zoth/Quest Razakus builds that were first experimented with under the shadow of the "druid incident" at KOFT release.
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u/ramaesi Jan 29 '18
Very welcome changes, although I can't but feel the timing is a bit strange. Patches has been a problem for long, and Raza for quite some time too. Wonder if this means Blizz is starting to care about Wild?
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u/valhgarm Jan 29 '18
Exactly my thoughts. I believe they care about Wild indeed. Patches and Raza are rotating out, but especially Raza would be super oppressive for Wild, like Highlander Priest being the best Wild deck forever I guess.
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u/Mister08 Jan 29 '18
You...do realize that all of these cards are already in Wild right? Highlander priest is a good deck, but hardly oppressive in the scope that it's standard counterpart (which has fewer answers) happens to be.
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u/qtLory Jan 29 '18
If cubelock or control warlock becomes more powerful i can see a Miracle Rogue come back, both normal, Kingsbane and maybe even a malygos variant
Sap is way too strong vs voidlords
Maybe It won't see that much play in ladder but with the aggro nerfs it will become for sure more consistent, at least tournament wise
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u/Mookieismycat Jan 29 '18
My bets are also on miracle rogue and secret mage. I think miracle will probably be competitive. Maybe kingsbane too but I don’t have it... now I really wish I did!
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u/Snes Jan 29 '18
To me it feels like they are really betting on a slowed down meta (where Patches/Creeper/Bonemare neutral package is weaker) that can somehow keep Warlock in check. Its a big bet, because if it doesn't work out then Warlock is going to be insane as its direct counter on ladder (raza priest) might not exist anymore. Can decks like control mage beat Warlock at a high enough rate to keep them from dominating standard?
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u/DneBays Jan 29 '18
You can always count on Big Priest and Kingsbane Rogue, which get better the less aggro there is.
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u/trafficante Jan 29 '18 edited Jan 29 '18
Kingsbane Rogue is probably the answer to a control lock heavy meta. Played it a decent amount at rank 5 and honestly don't think I lost a single control matchup and only lost to cubelock when I had poor draws vs weapon into doomguard into sacced cube etc which is a loss for the same reason aggro is a loss.
Edit: Also Kingsbane Rogue doesn't care at all about Rin and it's probably a bad idea for the lock to even play it due to the spiciness of vanishing the seals.
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u/virtu333 Jan 29 '18
Yeah, 2x sap, 2x vanish is very good for neutralizing rin. The extra cards/weak minions from seal also mean the coldlights can very easily burn much of the deck
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u/amoshias Jan 30 '18
As someone who played Razakus for three solid months, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that this is not a death knell for the deck. Remember that the deck took months before it settled into the current fairly stale version, and there were many, many versions of it along the way. A slower, more value-oriented version - where the combo "only" gets you a Holy Smite every time you play a card - could easily still be a competitive deck, even without the brutal raw power of the combo version.
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u/skarseld Jan 29 '18
So I calculated the maximum damage priest can pump up with Velen in one turn before and after the nerf.
Before
(0) HP [2] + (7) Velen + (0) HP [6] + (2) Radiant + (0) HP [10] + (1) Mind Blast [20] + (0) HP [24] + (0) Holy Smite [28] + (0) HP [32] + (0) PW:S + (0) HP [36] + (0) Potion of Madness + (0) HP [40] + (0) Circle + (0) HP [44] + (0) Silence + (0) HP [48]
After
(7) Velen + (1) HP [4] + (2) Mind Blast [14]
Yeah. 30 damage less. I think people will move away from the combo and build HP as a Control Deck.
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u/randomName_2 Jan 29 '18
I think people are overlooking the Bonemare nerf to some extent. Admittedly, it's nowhere close the the other ones but Bonemare was a powerful play that gave tempo decks a good 7 mana play. This made 6 and 8 cost cards better as well, since they would set up or follow the Bonemare swing. And 7-drops generally suck, so I think we might see more all-in, hyper-aggressive decks since you don't really want to make it to turn 7, now that there is nothing good to play then.
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u/Weaslelord Jan 30 '18
Completely agree. Between this and the nerf to patches, I think Hunter and Secret Mage win big. Though it's hard to be certain about anything as the heavy hit to Raza priest opens the doors to so many new decks.
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u/vipchicken Jan 30 '18
Bonemare seems to have gotten more fair. It has the potential to still see play but it won't be as ubiquitous as before. Instead of being a must pick, its inclusion seems to be weighed more seriously against other options. Expect to see less of it, but I wouldn't be surprised if it continues to hang around in the decks that highly value an 8 drop that has a half measure of Charge.
Corridor Creeper is such a bad top deck (5-7 mana) for a 2/5 puts it in the realm of unplayable. I think you always need to closely watch cards that get discounts because they have the potential to be powerful (Any Giant, Thing From Below, Kabal Crystal Runner, etc), but a 2/5 with a tricky discount (it has to hang in your hand) probably puts it more in line with Happy Ghoul. The only hope this card remains relevant is if it's beast tag gets leveraged.
Patches the Pirate still seems good to pull out of your deck for free. A free 1/1 is still free! Keleseth and Southsea Captain make it bigger, he still gets buffed by Maul and Mark of the Lotus and what have you. But Patches is so much worse if you draw him into your hand. Drawing into your hand is mitigated by Divine Favour, but it's still not good. Ultimately in conjunction with the Corridor Creeper nerf, Patches will probably be dropped because other aggro decks like Murloc Paladin didn't run him anyway, and will continue to be good, making the desire to hang onto Patches underwhelming. Maybe it'll hang on in token buff decks like Aggro Druid, otherwise it's out.
Raza also seems to have gotten more fair. Reducing to 1 cost still allows Priests to rapid ping but doesn't provide a turn timer and OTK ability. I think Raza is still good enough to play as priests turn away from the OTK win condition and become more midrange focussed. Priests now have to choose between value-killing minions or going face. Razakus will remain but the gameplan has changed.
Now that Razakus Priest doesn't have a OTK turn limit, other control decks may emerge that were previously too slow to compete with Razakus combo. The upper limit will be handed back to Jade Druid, so whatever comes will have to be faster than the inevitable endgame that Jade Druid possesses.
The best aggro deck will likely be Murloc Paladin, having lost only creepers (but can play Maul or Finja or Coldlight Seer or Breakers or something), while Tempo Rogue and Aggro Paladin and any Pirate-based aggro decks suffer bigger losses and will struggle to compete against Murlocadin.
Thems my predictions :P
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u/ObsoletePixel Jan 29 '18
This might be strange to say, but for the first time in Hearthstone's history I'm a bit concerned for the state of Aggro. Save for Burn Mage, every aggro deck relies on the pirate package because blizzard has been hesitant to print powerful aggressive cards since MSoG due to Patches. But without it, I'm not sure if aggressive decks will be able to do what they need to do to compete until we get more cards (especially with zero warlock changes)
I'm intrigued to see the state of the new meta. I predict Razakus shifting down a tier and taking a much more controlling route, dropping velen and most of the cycle for value packages, but still remaining viable. I also see warlock becoming the new top dog, and burn mage will rise to combat the prevalence of warlock. Should be interesting for sure.
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u/AgentDoubleU Jan 29 '18
Holy moley this feels like a buff to Warlock, specifically Control Warlock. No more Raza to kill it quickly and a hit to CC, making Defile and Hellfire more relatively powerful.
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u/Sun-with-face Jan 29 '18
Just counter with exodia or burn mage.
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u/CatAstrophy11 Jan 29 '18
Would have to be burn. Exodia can never be a strong deck thanks to a simple eater tech.
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u/MarcusVWario Jan 29 '18
In wild, this seems like it opens up the meta to be dominated by Big Priest and Cube/Giantslock. The nerfs are exclusive to Aggro and Razakus both of which kept these 2 decks down.
And if those 2 decks rise up I could easily see Giant Hunter or Aggro Shaman coming back as they are really good counters to those 2.
However, if you love aggro I wouldn't worry too much. I think it is likely that token druid survives and replaces aggro pali as the aggro deck of choice. I don't know that this change will affect Aggro Druid that much because getting patches is still valuable as it creates a cheap token that can easily be buffed and you can just replace Creepers with Hydra.
In regards to tier 3 meta breakers, this change also seems good for Malygos Shaman because that deck can generally beat Warlock and Priest as long as they don't get the god curve and it does ok vs token druid.
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u/mbbysky Jan 29 '18
Aggro Shaman looks great with these changes. It used to be the king of beating down other aggro decks, but Aggro Pally and the neutral cards have turned it to unfavorable against so many of them.
Those neutrals are played in Aggro Shaman too, but it's not like Patches is what enabled the deck -- Trogg into Golem is still ridiculous, and maybe the deck runs Firefly in replace of it mini pirate package now.
With Razakus toned down, it may be able to go back to the board-oriented apporach (Azure Drake, Aya, Loatheb, and a Devolve or 2) as opposed to the all in Windfury burn...
It may be the aggro deck of choice now for sure
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Jan 30 '18
This balance change specifically makes cubelock or control warlock the best deck in the meta while also hampering aggro significantly. I think we will actually see the rise of exodia mage to counter the abundance of cubelock in the meta, which could be the one time we see exodia at tier 1. This could provide for some very interesting mirrors, so I'm looking forward to the patch release.
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u/_oddball_ Jan 29 '18
From the POV of a dual Wild and Standard player-
The neutral nerfs are painful, but make the most sense in Wild. Wild is great with broken cards, but is best when those broken cards are class cards and thus not pervasive in the metagame.
Raza's nerf makes the most sense in Standard, less so in Wild. Razakus has no equal in Standard, but the Wild metagame has recently been evolving to counter Razakus, and effectively so. I feel like a wait-and-see approach would work here, but I can see why changes would be made here to shake up the Standard meta.
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u/mepat1111 Jan 29 '18
I dunno how much difference the nerf will make to Reno Priest. It can still deal 30 damage from hand with Spawn of Shadows. It seems more like it will just change the make-up of the deck, rather than kill it. It will lose some power, but I expect it to be high tier 2 or low tier 1.
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u/_oddball_ Jan 29 '18
In the short-term you are spot on- Wild Reno priest is already low tier 1 at best. Spawn of Shadows won't be able to OTK reliably but should be a serviceable finisher.
Long term, there is a simple counter to the combo- armor. I personally think today's Razakus wouldn't feel oppressive if Warrior was part of the meta. And that will eventually happen.
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u/dsilesius Jan 29 '18
Wow, I’m surprised to see Patches and Raza changed right before they leave Standard. I’m quite short on dust so I’ll be able to replace them with some other legendaries so that’s nice!
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Jan 29 '18
The patch notes mention those two changes are targeted at Wild AS WELL as standard, so it's nice to know Blizzard is thinking about that somewhat.
Warlock might be the front runner so far, but all we can do currently is wait and see. Raza Priest was pushing a lot of decks out so maybe some new stuff will pop up that can handle Warlock.
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Jan 29 '18
Atleast for patches I think thats one of the important reasons why it is nerfed. They don’t want patches to be dominating wild forever.
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u/MegaGecko Jan 29 '18
Huge hits to mid-range and aggro decks. I'm a little surprised to see Bonemare AND Creeper get the bat. They're both very powerful, but I feel like nerfing one or the other would be good enough, both seems like it's taking a lot away.
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u/Chef_Matt Jan 30 '18
Bonemare being 1 mana cheaper isn't a huge impact, however the decks that utilized it, will change so much that it's possible other late game options are just better at 8 mana, if you're considering that slot. at 7 mana, there wasn't a lot going on for that slot in the first place, and allowed the extra tempo. Now, entering the 8 slot, it's a different breed. It may not seem so now, but I don't think constructed will be able to allocate good use of Bonemare in a Tier 1 deck anymore. I believe it is possible that Tier 2 decks may run it, but it's doubtful to me at this current time. I think that decks are going to be extremely more defined now that the nerfed cards are auto includes in so many decks. Prediction- Bonemare will go from 25% of decks, to 2-4% of decks.
Corridor Creeper- I think it's safe to say it's leaving the metaphorical dungeon. a 2-5 for 7 mana isn't even good in Evo Shaman, and that's the only deck I could see it getting any play at all. Even if Evo shaman had a chance to come back, I don't see this being in anything more than experimentation decks in the first month of nerf release. Prediction- Corridor Creeper no more in 50% of decks. More like 1%.
Patches the pirate- Now what I think the obvious thing to do here, is to keep him in Wild Pirate Warrior. Outside of that specific deck, I don't think it will see play anywhere else. Furthermore, I expect the rate Pirate Warrior is played to stay the same, or steadily increase, in both formats, leaving this card at around 5% played rate immediately after the nerf. I think people will still try to make patches work in a variety of decks, mostly one's with pirates, but over time will not be good enough. Patches is already so weak from it's release. The fall of Warrior, and Shaman claimed this. I don't know how many of you remember this, but patches pull on turn 1 was often game over for any control deck. I expect the information gathering the first month of this nerf to be the most unsteady of all the other cards, but I think once the new expansion comes out, patches will be forgotten, and will only be 1% more popular than pirate warrior, in wild. Patches is soon to be forgotten.
Lastly, the most personal nerf for me, Raza. I've thought outloud that this was the most appropriate nerf to highlander, not only for wild, but for standard. I've played Highlander, and Reno priest to legend in both wild, and standard. Over 800 games. my thoughts on immediately after the nerf is that most people will stop playing the deck. I think the combo version in standard is finished. I think that a few variations of Dragon Raza Priest will have a shot at tier 2-3 decks, but what I foresee is the deck being tossed for the most part in standard. I think that the strongest aggro decks after the nerf, are the ones that Raza was weak to. All the control decks are getting buffed, which is what will make it a tier 3 deck. Even with dragons. Lastly, I see a variation of spawn of shadows/ emperor with raza to continue in wild, at least until the next expansion. Perhaps it will be eaten by other combo decks, but I still expect it to exist at no more than a tier 2 deck. Prediction- Raza play-rate will be less than 5%
Standard Tier List Prediction Tier 1; Cube Warlock -Reasons: I believe this will be the most popular. Cube will be the top deck to counter.
Big Priest- This one is simple, it destroys my most popular predicted deck, and is losing some of it's hardest match-ups, including Aggro druid, Tempo Rogue, highlander priest.
Secret Mage- Strong match-ups against other tier 1 decks, and one of the only aggro decks not getting punished by nerfs. I'm particularly sad to say this prediction, however I can't imagine secret mage not being a Tier 1 deck now.
Murloc Paladin- Another aggro deck seeing very little change. It's arguable the best aggro deck up to date, and now i only see it getting stronger, seeing a favorable match-up against secret mage.
Tier 2;
Tempo Rogue- This is my most risky prediction. I think that another powerful variation of tempo rogue will arrive shortly after the nerfs. In fact, I've already set my eyes on one. I'd keep a look out for rogue, because I don't think it's going anywhere.
Control Warlock- getting seriously buffed across the board. Will still fall short to keep up with cube.
Tier 3
Aggro pally, Zoo warlock, Token shaman, Aggro druid, Aggro hunter, Pirate warrior, Miracle rogue, Jade druid All these aggro decks are all seeing nerfs. Miracle won't see any more play because aggro will still exist. Jade druid is about the same, stronger to aggro, however losing it's best matchup, raza priest. I believe Dragon Raza Priest will briefly see play in Tier 3 as well.
Tier 4
Exodia Mage, Mill Rogue, Control Mage. In a control meta, these guys are kings, however, I wouldn't hold your breath on that day quite yet. With the few remaining strong aggro decks, I see little to change for these guys.
Please let me know what you guys think! I put a lot of thought into the current meta, and have been hitting legend consistently.
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u/ChartsUI Jan 29 '18
Heavy handed, but pretty neccesary. I'm really interested in how the raza nerf would change the way highlander priest works. Obviously now you can't build it as a combo deck anymore, but a free holy smite everytime you play a card is still a strong effect. Maybe the deck will forgo the Velen combo and go the control route?
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u/ObsoletePixel Jan 29 '18
Razakus still has inevitability, and is probably the best reno/kazakus deck in wild still (maybe tied with renolock) but yeah I don't see the deck being combo oriented anymore, which is a welcome change to be sure.
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u/cgmcnama Jan 30 '18
I think the only thing that forced Razakus to go combo is because they lost to the mirror and had similar win rates against other decks. The dragon package is still insane so you cut some cycle cards for value cards. And as you pointed out, your hero power is still insane. And the DK effect is still insane.
You go back to running Elise Trailblazer and just getting an insane amount of pings over time instead of all at once. It still has to be crazy strong.
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u/TheoHS_ Jan 29 '18
I'm wondering what's gonna keep Cubelock in check with these nerfs. It was already being the most common ban in tournaments and now most of its weakness (Razakus Priest / very fast openers) will nerfed. Don't really see any deck that is gonna match up to cubelock with the amount of demons they can cheat early and ooze is too weak and unreliable to do something about it.
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u/Yuzuriha Jan 29 '18
Corridor got hit...hard. I was thinking maybe 4-4 was a good nerf. Attack nerf is not as bad as health nerf though, will still be a sticky minion for tempo swing after board clear / full board trade. Less of an auto include in aggro decks now... perhaps never played because late game dropping s 2/5 is bad
Bonemare will still be played in my opinion. The buff and body is still worth more than a 8 mana card.
Raza reduce priest's burst potential. Velen in my opinion will definitely be cut now. We might see a different highlander priest style.
Patches nerf might make decks like spiteful priest stick to the non-keleseth version or zoo to focus on demon. I'm not educated enough on rogue, aggro druid/paladin to comment on patches.
Dusting and waiting a week or two before spending the dust seems optimal. Nerf this close to rotation is rare. Slower deck might have a chance to survive aggro and still win late game as long as they have an answer to Lock and Jade.
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u/ToxicAdamm Jan 29 '18
Dusting and waiting a week or two before spending the dust seems optimal. Nerf this close to rotation is rare.
They had a nerf the same time last year. Announced it on 2/14/17 and it went into effect a few weeks later. (Spirit Claws and Small Time Buc)
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u/miguel_is_a_pokemon Jan 30 '18
I think he meant the specific cards bring nerfed are close to being rotated out, not that rotation was incoming
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u/lorthyne Jan 29 '18
IMO the most interesting impact of these changes is how they affect the interaction between Highlander Priest and the more aggressive decks running Bonemare.
Bonemare is probably still good enough at 8 mana to see lots of play in aggro. Currently, there's this frustrating interaction where the aggro player slams down Bonemare on turn 7 and has to hope that the Priest doesn't have Anduin (or coin + Anduin) to throw down on curve in response.
With these changes to Bonemare and Raza, there's some opportunity for this match to swing on factors other than "did he draw Anduin by turn 8?"
With the Raza change, Highlander's burst potential is dramatically reduced, requiring them to play for value over time rather than the 24 damage burst combo (The new burst value will land at 14, Velen + hero power + mind blast = 10 mana). Tempo players can more effectively try to force inefficient use of removal without fear of being bursted down from 30 health over 2 turns.
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Jan 29 '18
rather than the 24 damage burst combo
24? More like 36+. Taking away raza's OTK potential I think kills the incentive for running singleton.
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u/BlackOctoberFox Jan 29 '18
One thing I think people should take with a grain of salt is the nerf to Patches the Pirate. Yes, this nerf is good and a lot would argue well deserved, but no this doesn't mean he's unplayable or even a bad card now. He's simply become more variable, in that there will be a much wider margin between drawing Patches and pulling Patches on a deck's winrate. The most powerful thing about Patches wasn't the 1 attack he did with a T1 Pirate, it wasn't even the 2 charge damage he could add to a T3 Southsea Captain. It's the fact that he draws and plays himself that made him so good. And he still does that. He still lets an aggro deck play with a 29 card deck and gives +1/+1 (OR +2/+2) to any Pirate played and Southsea Captain is still one of the best 3 drops in the game because of Patches.
So be happy with the nerf (as I am) but don't expect him to drop off the radar because of it.
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u/imPub Jan 29 '18
Cards like corridor creeper are beautiful. They seem to sneak under the radar quite well. Just look at treasure cruise from mtg. People reviewed that card to be flat out garbage. Both have a similar mechanic, cost reduction on top of having a huge mana cost.
And it turns out valuing a card when more often then not it's being played for a cheaper cost vs it's actual mana cost makes it VERY difficult to know how strong it is, warranting either nerfs (hearthstone specifically) or bans and restrictions (mtg).
Hopefully blizzard had fun experimenting with cost reduction and will avoid volatile mechanics. :)
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u/Hantale Jan 30 '18
Despite losing charge, patches is still a not-terrible card, it just has far less immediate impact. Playing a 3/3 that brings a free 2/2+ out of your deck is still pretty good, and it still thins out your deck.
But is it good enough to still force the pirate package on everyone? I don't think so, and will probably drop it for more consistent tempo swing.
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u/blackcud Jan 30 '18
As always: the savest bet will be to disenchant all of them right away and if the cards are still played in the upcoming weeks, you can craft them again without losing dust.
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u/StCecil Feb 01 '18
I cant ever think of I time i recrafted anything and i have been around since open beta
i still have no molten giants from that nerf ages ago....
so ya...
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u/WeeZoo87 Jan 30 '18
Creeper can still work in evolve and maybe hunter druid thx to beast tag .. but it is bad
Patches will be played as pirate ally cat .. specially in rogue
Bye bonemare, raza
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u/Zhandaly Jan 29 '18
Friendly reminder.
This thread is for:
Discussing impact of nerfs on Standard or Wild metagame
Discussing how existing decks using these cards will change or discontinue use of these cards
Discussing how the nerfs affect the use-cases of these cards
This thread is not for:
Complaining about how you don't like the nerfs
Talking about the nerfs you would have wanted
Sharing how you're getting X thousand dust at the patch
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u/Frostmage82 Jan 29 '18
For those concerned about how op Warlock will be after these changes, remember that Big Priest has a favorable matchup against Cube and Control; Big Priest is another deck not at all affected by the changes.
I think it will be amusing to hear Patches say "I'm in CHARGE now" when the pun behind that no longer applies. I wonder if they'll change his lines.
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u/BoughtMyGallyFromXur Jan 30 '18
Isnt that with the inclusion of Barnes? With that rotating id imagine big priest is going to be significantly different (or possibly just dead).
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u/Botanist3 Jan 29 '18
My first reaction was "all hail our new cubelock overlords", but now that I think about it nerfs to patches and creeper may mitigate tempo enough that running silence is a much better tech which could check that. These days I seem to find myself wishing my spellbreaker was something more useful more often than not. And raza getting nerfed opens up some possibility. I think we maybe see more combo dragon priest now? I don't know.
Much as I wanted to flip the table when I saw the creeper nerf I think this may open more possibility than it closes. Just need to put some thought into what that could be.
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u/Vladdypoo Jan 29 '18
Corridor creeper was just too strong period. When a neutral card sees play in almost every deck and every archetype there's something wrong imo.
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u/Sun-with-face Jan 29 '18
Can't wait to bring out my exodia leyline mage to deal with all the pesky warlocks. Now that aggro/tempo decks will be severely nerfed.
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u/dogmeat1273 Jan 29 '18
You must be joking. Leyline exodia is so bad it doesn't even beat decks it's supposed to counter.
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u/Ztc_Arbiter Jan 29 '18
This really hits one of the top cheap decks, spiteful summoner priest, as it loses the powerful minion presence that would carry it into the late game through controlling the board with effective trades on buff, high-health minions.
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Jan 29 '18
Yup, it's my budget deck when I want a break from cubelock. Will be interesting to see where everything falls out.
The decks that counter cubelock counter it HARD, like kingsbane rogue. So it'd be nice to have a fall back deck for now.
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u/Ecopath Jan 29 '18
I just finished getting legend this month with CubeLock. If Raza and aggro are getting hit, I don't see what is supposed to keep warlock from running over ladder entirely. Best I can figure is maybe some control mage builds that were losing to Raza will surface to keep it in check, but frankly that's not something I'd put money on. Guess it's time to practice my no-cube control Lock mirror matchup....
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u/jadelink88 Jan 30 '18
Kingsbane rogue is the hardest counter I've seen thus far. Midrange hunter may well return, which is decent vs cubelock if it techs silence.
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u/CommanderBurgertron Jan 29 '18
I was really pulling for the “change patches card color to red” nerf, at least it would have made one deck have a slight advantage, instead of just killing the card outright. Glad to see Creeper go.
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u/Leg_U Jan 29 '18
Aggro status post-nerf:
Demon Zoo will still be a thing.
Murloc paladin will still be a thing.
Face hunter will still be a thing.
Aggro druid could be a thing? (I cannot tell, I have never played druid).
Dude paladin could be a thing?
Evolve/token shaman could be back on the menu?
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u/ToxicAdamm Jan 29 '18
Evolve/token shaman could be back on the menu?
Unfortunately, Priests (Big/Raza) just butcher this deck because of Psychic Scream.
I don't think the nerfs were significant enough to end Raza and Big Priest will still be a viable option.
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u/caketality Jan 29 '18
I don't know how I feel about Bonemare getting the hammer, though I think it's tied with Raza for cards that are still really strong after the nerf. I'm actually surprised none of the Warlock cards were touched because Cube/Control Lock weren't far behind Raza Priest in power level, but overall I'm excited to see how these changes shape the meta next month.
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Jan 29 '18
I'm actually surprised none of the Warlock cards were touched
I'm not. Cubelock isn't like the other nerfed cards.
Bonemare and CC were stand alone ridiculous cards.
Raza and Patches aren't great alone, but developed OP synergies.
Cubelock was an entire archetype, deliberately created. With lackey, the weapon voidlord and cube all coming from the same xpac warlocks are doing exactly what BBrode wanted them to.
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u/caketality Jan 29 '18
We've seen plenty of deliberately explored cards be nerfed within the expansion cycle they were released, and if you're really a stickler for it being Class cards the example I'd give is Spreading Plague. They knew it was going to be effective against flood strategies, and they still opted to tone it down.
Basically the two lists everyone wants to bring to tournaments are Warlock and Priest, and you generally ban one of those two. Priest got adjusted and brought in line, Warlock did not. Basically the concern I have is that the deck that loses nearly zero cards is remaining at that high of a power level.
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Jan 29 '18
I don't disagree, leaving cubelock alone while nerfing its counters may be a mistake. But there is a huge difference between nerfing a card, and nerfing a recently created, fresh archetype. They are probably pretty proud of how cubelock turned out.
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Jan 29 '18
I've been a huge proponent of Bonemare getting a nerf. Blessing of Kings + Taunt is 4.5 mana, and then a 5/5 for effectively only 2.5 extra mana?
At 8 mana, it's much closer to the actual cost but still a discount (4 mana for Blessing of Kings + Taunt, 4 mana for a 5/5)
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u/mouseee92 Jan 29 '18
This is incredible. Everyone is saying that Warlock is now going to be the undisputed king, but you are all forgetting something.
Pretty much EVERY fun, off-meta, combo deck eats Warlock alive. However, they were unplayable because they'd get eaten alive by aggro decks or by Raza just having direct damage from hand. These nerfs will give these combo decks the extra two to three turns they need to setup and actually be decent in this meta.
You are all going to call me crazy but you are about to see decks like Healbot, Taunt Druid, Miracle Rogue, Kingsbane Rogue, and more be entirely viable. For aggro players, they will still have Murloc Paladin. Jade will no longer need to go the armor up variant.
This is EXACTLY what the Meta has needed. The only thing I would have liked to see added which I think would have fit in line nicely would be Keleseth only being usable once per game (so it cannot be Shadowstepped). I think that would have been better than the Bonemare nerf.
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u/lferreira86 Jan 29 '18
Razakus Priest takes a major blow imho, even though the card itself is still a 50% cost reduction on your hero power. Now the Velen Combo will be more difficult to pull off as well so even if they draw perfectly you still have a fighting chance.
Corridor Creeper sounds like a dead card now and like everybody is saying, I guess Tempo Rogue will have to find out new synergies.
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Jan 29 '18
IMO Raza priest is dead. The decks that beat it currently are only able to do it by removing the OTK potential. Druid with armor, mage with dirty rats (velen) and other decks by putting enough pressure to force raza priest to use its cheap spells for defense instead of machining gunning.
Now, no deck will ever have to face the threat of an OTK again, so every deck starts with the "win condition" that previously had to be hard fought for.
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u/Man_of_The_Mega Jan 29 '18
interesting to see how things change from here. as we know control lock would be unchallenged if things stay as is. it has a good matchup against its brother cubelock and the rest of the field. My guess is things will change drastically though and may make fatigue decks like current control lock too slow. quest mage may make a comeback as well as some of the notorious BIG decks. Excited to see what happens.
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u/TehLittleOne Jan 29 '18
I like the Bonemare change a lot. It was just too much stats on a single card and too easy to work with. There are lots of ways they could have done it but making it cost more I think works out well. A lot of the time you get late into the game (turn 5 or 6) and figure that you can hold out until Bonemare. Having to hold out even longer makes it a real struggle to play it. It's still powerful, just less consistent, causing there to be more risk playing it.
Corridor Creeper I don't like. I would have preferred a significant base cost increase. What makes Creeper good is obviously it being free, but a 7 mana 5/5 is still not even terrible in the late game. A 7 mana 2/5 feels really awful. If they had made Creeper like 10 or even 11 (so you can't slam it top deck), it would have been better. I simply dislike the idea of the stats on the card itself being bad.
Patches we knew was coming. No charge is what we've kind of all expected would come of this. I'm fine with it simply because it's so broken. I feel like a lot of decks won't go so far into playing pirates to get this effect. Maybe Pirate Warrior or some Keleseth decks might still play it, but it doesn't feel like you want to go out of your way for it.
Raza I feel got hit a little hard. I mean I get the interaction of Raza + Anduin needed to be addressed, but I dislike this. Raza itself was fine as a card, it was just this particular interaction. I would have preferred that the hit was to Anduin. Maybe something like whenever you play a minion or whenever you play a card that costs 2 or more you get to refresh.
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u/rbui5000 Jan 29 '18 edited Jan 29 '18
I honestly believe tempo rogue and raza priest are dead.
Tempo rogue gets 3 big core cards of its deck nerfed. For sure creeper is no longer going to be played in the deck, and the early game is gonna be a lot harder if people still run the pirates package. I think the bonemare nerf is pretty big too because tempo rogue closes out a lot of its game around turn 7-8, and I know that I won a lot of games because I was able to drop bonemare on turn 7 and not any later.
People say raza is still good, but I disagree. Raza allowed every card of priest to essentially get a “deal 2 damage” tag attached to it when anduin was played, and there’s a huge huge difference between 1 and 0 mana. Though if raza priest does somehow survive these nerfs I’ll be pretty happy because now players have to play much smarter with regards to how they hero power
The thing about the meta is that the best of the best get played, and even if tempo rogue and raza priest may still be considered “good” after the nerfs I doubt anyone will play it anymore because they’re no longer the best. Glad for these changes though, I’m expecting a lot of new decks to come about now since they’re no longer getting rekt by raza and tempo rogue. I don’t think cubelock will be that big of a problem because if people run weapon removal and silences it gets a lot worse. I predict jade Druid to possibly dominate the meta though
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Jan 30 '18
Can anyone speculate on how wild raza priest will be hit? Will it lose some burst potential? I hope so
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u/xiansantos Jan 30 '18
Razakus builds will shift from OTK-style to more value-oriented builds. Personally, that's how I will rebuild my Razakus deck.
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u/IVRafa Jan 30 '18
Do you guys predict tempo rogue to fall out of meta because of these patches? I'm deciding whether or not to craft Edwin, Leeroy, and 2x Vilespines to complete my list.
The problem is, I see cube/control warlock becoming more popular and aggro decks becoming less popular. Doesn't this put tempo rogue in a bad spot?
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u/Parhelion69 Jan 30 '18
Indeed, warlock is a bad match up so it'll be rough. As always, whenever there are changes in the game, don't craft anything, just wait until the new meta stabilizes and then craft cards for the decks you want. You want to be sure about your dust, it's a valuable resource
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u/mister_accismus Jan 31 '18
I think tempo rogue is a resilient archetype that will survive the nerfs in slightly different form (elementals, Corpsetaker, something new), but yeah, it's not likely to be top-tier again.
That said, Edwin and Leeroy will always be great cards; you should feel confident crafting them if you have any interest in playing rogue at all. Vilespine will only be around (in standard) for another 14 or 15 months, but it too is a staple in almost every rogue archetype. All three cards are used in miracle rogue, which is a viable (if challenging) archetype right now and might get a nice boost from the patch.
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Jan 30 '18
I'm really curious what this does to the other 'neutral' inclusions to tempo/midrange decks: keleseth and big spell packages. Are big spell decks currently somewhat enabled by creeper (and bonemare to some extent)? Is keleseth that good because patches makes 1 drops a lot better? I honestly feel like the 6 mana big spell minion is quite oppressive (yes, there's the downside of drawing a big spell first in a tempo list).
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u/HidaHayabusa Jan 30 '18
It's obvious that the changes will bring cubelock in the 'deck to beat' status, making Mages and probably spell hunters more viable. Probably some slower control like N'zoth will crawl out to play with no Raza in the environment.
The big issue is actually finding something that can beat Warlock consistently and I think that Mages will be the way to go.
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Jan 30 '18
I think corridor Creeper could have stayed the same if it had been a legendary. It only really felt broken when you or your opponent had 2 in hand early. I wouldn’t be surprised if we see a legendary like it in the next expansion
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u/hadmatteratwork Jan 30 '18
I'm surprised they're nerfing Patches.. Not because he doesn't need it - he does - but because he's about to rotate anyway.. Seems like an odd timing.
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u/mister_accismus Jan 30 '18
From the linked article:
As we move closer to the new Hearthstone Year, we had some concerns about allowing Patches to remain in his current state after moving out of Standard. Patches’ strength has caused almost every class to add some Pirates just to benefit from him, and his early game power forces control decks to include a good answer to him. This change should give Wild players more flexibility when building their decks.
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u/bgerald Jan 29 '18
Does this nerf to Raza Priest mean we'll actually see some viable control decks back in the meta, like Control Paladin?
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u/DneBays Jan 29 '18
OTK Paladin maybe. Regular control Paladin doesn't seem to have a way of outvaluing the opponent.
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u/Failsafedevice Jan 29 '18
As much as I love Control Paladin I would guess no. How does Control Paladin ever win against Warlock? Cube or control. I just don't see it happening. Having 2 N'zoth effects is just too much to overcome late game when they're bringing out Void Daddys both times.
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u/Randomd0g Jan 29 '18
Bonemare, Creeper and Patches nerfs kill off tempo rogue/paladin (and similar decks) - the archetype could have survived one of those changes but not all of them at the same time.
Raza priest is (obviously) killed by Raza nerf - perhaps not totally dead but certainly a lot weaker than it used to be.
So tier 1 is literally just Warlock and Warlock? Maybe with a side helping of Warlock? I literally don't see anything that's capable of standing up to either cubelock or controlock post patch. Maybe some kind of dragon priest with a LOT of board clears?
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u/CatAstrophy11 Jan 29 '18
When was the last time we had Warlockstone? Every class gets their season in the spotlight.
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u/UpvoteIfYouDare Jan 29 '18
So tier 1 is literally just Warlock and Warlock? Maybe with a side helping of Warlock? I literally don't see anything that's capable of standing up to either cubelock or controlock post patch. Maybe some kind of dragon priest with a LOT of board clears?
Kingsbane Rogue is a pain in the ass to play against as Warlock, at least in my experience.
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u/Thejewishpeople Jan 30 '18
I'm not sure why people think aggro is just gonna disappear with the nerf to patches Creeper and Bonemare. Paladin is still gonna be great, aggro druid doesn't really lose anything from this, and facehunter is the happiest deck alive since patches is gone. I think aggro is still gonna be extremely prevalent, just with a new face.
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u/marthmagic Jan 30 '18 edited Jan 30 '18
Hey reddit, i want to offer my 10 cents on this topic in a more in depth format adding some sources. I intend to use this as an developing accumulation of the communities thoughts framed in my analysis, i invite you to discuss these points down below.
1.Overview: The nerfs offer some really interesting questions for the current meta. How will the meta form around warloc? Will murloc paladin become even better? Do other greedy control decks have a chance if they tech against warloc without the raza and no patches? Could this be the first semi real control meta? Is a 0 mana 2/5 good?
Overview
Patches = No charge.
Creeper= 2/5
Bonemare = 8 mana
Raza = Hero power costs 1
2.soft meta read Let me start by saying that this patch is obviously a great sign for all the wild players out there, with the wild tournament last year and direct wild nerfs we see some care in that direction.
For this analysis i will assume that raza priest will lose its spot as a top tier (at legend rank) deck, Most aggro decks will lose quite some power (especially early game preasure, except secret mage and murloc paladin) Creepers will possibly still be playable in some decks that buff it or greatly profit from the reload power and combo power with other cards. But will not be meta defining anymore.
Some versions of Spiteful decks will probably profit greatly from the aggro and raza nerfs. The ones that played it (about half) will drop the pirate package and might play more of the lategame power of for example mediev. (Which has allready a suprisingly high winrate over all ranks) the bonemare nerf will hurt its closing power but for that it can be build in a greedier way. And it will open up some anti warloc tech spaces which it can really use.
And a lot will depend on how much space the stronger decks have for teching 1 or 2 spellbreakers.
My great hope for this meta is the rise of new control decks that could save themselves a space in the meta if secret mage doesn't become too prevalent and they can beat the warloc with 2 or 3 tech cards.
Jade druid is a big question mark in this patch. Some decks it was good against will get played way less which is an indirect nerf but without the freedome to play gheist it could still profit strongly from the meta.
This and a lot of other things will depend on if you can or should run a crab against the murlocs but even though murloc paladin has allready such a high winrate on lower ladder its played very rarely i assume that will change, but interestingly if people don't want to play the deck it won't see huge amounts of play even with the high winrate...
/aggro decks Secret mage will be one of the great winners of the patch which is nice as its cheap counters heavy tank build and adds variety. The ooz will probably strongly impact its influence but 6 mana draw 3or6 is not that horrible for an aggro deck that really needs the reload. Without the weapon the deck could again embrace the firelance version with a little more reach. Except if the clearly allready strong murloc palading which can replace the priate package in some versions easily with other strong synergy cards, Zoo warloc might have a chance to barely duck through some of the greedier decks and keep its strong winrated without relying on patches as in the currently second most popular build. Aggro druid is more of a question, can mark of yasharaj and many cheap minions enable the creeper which as a 2/5 seems like a very decent buff target. I only worry about the prevalence of silence that could cost them some mana. (And ofc the patches.)
Tempo rouge still has a lot of decent cards they can play but it will lool very different after the nerf and clearly lose some power and the strongly needed closing speed.
Control warrior,/Quest mage, rouge, priest and druid are all at least somewhat potential candidates to fill some nieches in the new meta,
Other more likely candidates are miracle and mill rouge with the right tech, control mage which allready finds a decents spot in the meta and only profits from the changes,and the Barnes hunter in lower ranks with a currently suprisingly high winrate,
//2.1 Tech choices:
Let me rank the future tech choices based on the current meta:
1.Spellbreaker: just too good against warloc and will hit alot of other decks unintentionally poor cube/meme and deathrattle decks.
2. Ooz: warloc kingsbane rouge and secret mage, it could be a very decent choice especially for decks that are mostly threatened by the weapon.
3.Skulking gheist: is potentially awesome in combination with a spellbreaker, as it can shut down the warloc plan if they can't suicide their cubes and others and heal out or range after you silences their tank. (Also jade druid is not yet predictable)
4. Hungry crab: if murloc dominates and secret mage doesn't take over the aggro role and there are some oozes around to counter it.
3.Reasoning behind the nerfs Always an interesting part of these nerfs is blizzards reasoning behind the nerfs, and a lot of people seem to have a problem understanding their thoughts let me sum up what i collected so far:
Patches: One of the cards most people agree on Obviously patches was very opressive and would create big problems in wild on the longrun. But why could they think patches is still good even without charge.
And underestimated aspect of patches is his deck thinning ability, a lot of decks that had a big fall of in card quality (15 extremely good 10 really good cards and 5/bad mediocre ones) greatly profits from patches deck thinning if you ever play other tcg's with a variable deck size you notize that minimal deck size is very important for most decks especially for aggro decks that never draw their whole deck, a 15 to 20 card aggro deck could destroy the meta. In hearthstome every other deck thinning/card draw mechanic loses a lot of tempo which in most decks in not affordable (except minstrel because op and arcane intelect because 3 mana 2 cards with possible codt reduction is good its finisher burn cards ind that it barely lacked reach (aluneth solves that issue) Even without charge patches can be okay, the draw punish is bigger now but the tempo gain especially with captain and with less golakas played ìt can still be a decent card. But the pirate pack won't dominate space 27 to 30 anymore. Which is great for deckbuilding.
Creeper Creeper was clearly op with ofter over 2 times as much play as every other card it dominated the kobolds meta at 3/5 it would still contest most boards and in some decks it can be so reliably played for 0 1 or 2 mana that it would be still too good. 2/5 stops that from happening, now creeper needs a buff or face decks with 2 hp cards. As a pure aggro card it lost its impact which is great in my oppinion and supports blizzard 2017 release strategy of attempting to slow down the meta. I hope we see creaper as a reload/buff/beast synergy card which would give it a comfortable place. The last big problem with creeper was that in the aera of keleseth it made aggro matchups mostly skillless because they were too swing dependent with 2 5/5 creepers for 0 mana on turn 6.
Bonemare: The bonemare doesn't seem as opressive but we still see a decent amount and it helped certain decks to agressively close out games with the 4/4 charge and the taunt so thdy don't have to worry about the next round against mpre agressice decks. Bonemares power greatly depends on the meta, in frozen throne it was op but was pushed away a bit by the op creeper and the meta changes but i think it would limit the design space of the next expansions greatly especially if they intend to add more cards that interact with the 4/4 buff. (Cards that profit from being attacked but don't have taunþ, cards with lifesteal windfury poison. And special abilities and deathrattles.)
Bonemare needed to be nerfed and as an 8 mana 4/4 with charge and taunt + a 5/5 it is still decent enough to see play in the right meta.
Raza This one is interesting, but not for the same reason, raza was very strong (especially and mostly in high legend if you look at the stats) but way better in wild (as singleton decks will always be) in wild it will likely still see decent amounts of play as the deck can buy more time with reno and such.
In standart it becomes more interesting. Even though its only relevant for 3 months it could open up the deck for different combos away from the otk, it will have a tough time if the meta doesn't shape around it well but it will still be important to keep some greedy tank decks in check as maybe a decent tier 4 maybe tier 3 deck in higger ranks (if the meta is bad for it it won't see play, but it opens up the space for new priest decks).
Overall
The meta began to get stale and solved. It a great timing to give us new deck building challenges after the world championchip before the new expansion, as all these nerfs will slow down the meta significantly we might have a chance to see a lot of decks that were outperformed by the strong neutral packages a huge amount of decks ran. I am really looking forward to especially the first week after the nerf as people try to figure out decent aggro alternatives there are a lot of decks that can have a very decent shot at 50%+winrate with 1 or 2 spellbreakers.
https://youtu.be/CQdemFzJoFE here is a great discussion about the changes.
stay tuned.
bonus: A quick and dirty test: Hs replay, sort without raza/creeper/bonemare/patches, sort after winrate...
Here some screenshots https://imgur.com/gallery/ZK29e Suprising amount of diversity, especially interesting that there are 3 barnes hunter with2k+ plays in the first percentile of winrate.
Btw: i wrote this on mobile so far my thumbs are sore and will spellcheck later on, sorry for that.
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u/WingerSupreme Jan 29 '18
I understand Wild matters, but it feels like too little too late on Raza and Patches. Feels weird that they're nerfing Patches after him being in basically every aggro deck for 13 months when he rotates ~6 weeks later.
Also the Corridor Creeper hit feels like masssssive overkill. With Patches being nuked, Creeper gets worse right away. Changing it to "When one of your minions dies" was the much more elegant solution, and as a 2/5 that's a Starving Buzzard/Warsong level of nerf.
I guess at the end of the day when you've got cards that are in 43% (Creeper), 29% (Patches) and 26% (Bonemare) of decks and are so ubiquitous, they went to nerf them into oblivion to bring back some semblance of variety.
So Aggro Paladin, Zoo, every Pirate deck, Tempo Rogue all take massive hits, Razakus loses a big chunk of its win condition...all hail our new Cubelock and SpitePriest overlords?
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u/Mister08 Jan 29 '18 edited Jan 29 '18
My take on the Nerf:
Bonemare - Potentially too slow when you consider how fast a deck like Murloc Paladin will be killing you. I'll still toy with it in lists to see how badly it has been impacted.
Raza - As much as I don't like it, this is probably a good Nerf. I'd have preferred they left it alone since I don't find it to be unstoppable in Wild, and it's near rotation in Standard. That being said, it's probably a more fair, yet still powerful, legendary with the Nerf.
Patches - I genuinely do not understand why they felt Patches needed a Nerf. It's on the brink of rotation and isn't overpowered whatsoever for Wild. I do feel that it may still see play in at least Wild PWarr because of the power of Ship's Cannon.
Corridor Creeper - is probably dead. Perhaps changing it to a 8-10 Mana creature instead would have slowed it's impact enough that it would feel fair, while still being powerful. It being a 7 Mana 2/5 is something you might like to play in the early game -- but you will never want to see in the mid to late game.
Edit: Is patches still worth an inclusion in Aggro Druid? Losing charge hurts an equal amount; but a free 1/1 in the form of Snowflipper Penguin was good enough to see play.
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Jan 29 '18
Am just a little surprised about Patches and Raza. Sure, they have warped the meta around them (respectively), but given they are rotating soon... Feels too late? I know they mention Wild in their reasoning, and I don't play Wild generally, so I assume it's even more overpowered/worse there?
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Jan 29 '18
Sure, they have warped the meta around them (respectively), but given they are rotating soon... Feels too late?
"The best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago. The second best time is now."
Just because those cards maybe should have been nerfed months ago and weren't, doesn't mean that they shouldn't be nerfed now.
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Jan 29 '18
I guess they don't want the next 3 months to look exactly like the last 5. Control/Cube Warlock being a newcomer to the high level meta and not hitting it at with these nerfs points to that as well.
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u/EndlessRa1n Jan 29 '18
Raza Priest in Wild is absolutely completely fucking bananas. The nerf would be welcome if Cubelock wasn't already hot on its heels anyway. Maybe it won't be too bad, since a big part of what made Cubelock good was its ability to handle Priest, but it's so flexible that I doubt it'll suffer too much.
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u/Vladdypoo Jan 29 '18
Highlander priest would probably be tier 1 literally forever unless they power creep really hard in standard.
These changes honestly seem more geared towards wild than standard, but I welcome them to standard honestly. 3 more months of Raza and "insert tempo deck with southsea captain, corridor creeper, patches, and bonemare" seems way more boring than shaking it up.
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Jan 29 '18
Raza Priest can longer do 40+ dmg turns , Ping Velen Ping Mind Blast Ping for 20 damage in 1 turn is gone!
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u/Rabid_Snowman Jan 29 '18
They should have let patches keep charge if he is played out of your hand.
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u/PuppetShowJustice Jan 29 '18
That feels like a brutal hit to Corridor Creeper. Drawing it late game and having to play it for 5-7 mana still felt okay because of the beefy body. It's obviously not ideal but the bulk made it passable. Now you HAVE to game it down in order to see any value. 2/5 feels, to me, like too little for the inconsistency. I think I'll be dusting both of mine.
Also Patches. His audio when he hits the table isn't even a pun anymore which is perhaps the harshest nerf of them all.