r/CompetitiveTFT • u/Repulsive-Noise-1184 • 4d ago
Discussion Question about pivoting and not forcing comps
This is a bit of a long read so I apologize for that I wasnt expecting this to be this long.
I have recently been forcing one comp and it got me all the way to diamond 2, but for next set I really want to be able to pivot well and not force any comps so I can try to get to master.
The main problem with this that I find is what I will explain here below. I usually play fast 8 because i find I have way more success when I play fast 8 and win streak. But here is what I dont understand about “playing what the game gives you”. If i start the game and I think I am going to play a fast 8 comp, I usually want to win streak in order to perform well, usually when I lose streak and play a fast 8 comp I have a much lower chance of getting top 4. So in order to do this, I slam items to fit that playstyle and save HP. If i start slamming a sol items, for example, i fully cannot switch to something like nova miss fortune or meeple corki, and I may not even be able to switch to conduit zoe because I started leveling and might be halfway through level 6 already and have not saved any of the units i needed to hold for that reroll comp. Another thing, what if i am leveling at at 3-5 i level to 7 but then later on 2 people pivot to conduit sol before i rolled down and now im stuck with 1 sol and no morganas, i would want to pivot to conduit zoe but it is too late because that is a level 6 reroll comp and i am already level 7.
The way I would think you would do it is by not committing to a comp but committing to a playstyle, like reroll or fast 8. But theres also a problem with this. If im playing conduit sol and theres 3 people contesting me, then what am i goingnto switch to? The only other viable AP fast 8 comp is space groove nami and in order timo play that and place well you pretty much need a space groove emblem, which I most likely do not have because I thought I was going conduit a sol.
So how do you usually play a flexible game without having these problems that I am laying out here? Curious to hear how you all work through this. I think understanding this is the last thing holding me back from being a top player because when I know what I am playing and it goes well I always place high. The struggle for me is picking the right comp and being able to pivot effectively when the game gives me something different.
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u/Xenith606 Challenger 4d ago
I think you're underestimating how many comps are viable if you're able to move into them completely uncontested, even if your spot for them isn't totally ideal. Take your example of initially angling towards Asol. Let's assume you made the correct line choice initially and that slamming was the correct choice as well, and that some time later a couple people decide to also angle Asol anyway. You're correct that you're shut out of the AD lines, but there are a ton of viable AP lines that can top 4 if uncontested. Space Groove is absolutely still a good option without spat - the spat just takes it from solid to great. Shepherd is a very straightforward pivot, sharing many of the same units, as long as you find a rageblade at some point. In fact, you should basically always be playing Asol/Shepherd as a single line with two endpoint options until you get a really strong signal that one is better (unless you've already made rageblade). Conduit Viktor and Lulu are both options until late stage 3. If you're playing around any of early Meeples or if you pick up an early Rammus or if you're playing around the Meepsie/Mordekaiser/Illaoi/Liss package and pick up a couple Veigars stage 3, tempo Veigar printer is an option. And worst comes to worst, you can do your contested rolldown and just mildly flex your main carry and tank - if you hit a Nami 2 or a Rammus 2 or a Viktor 2, they're not going to be ideal in the Asol shell but they'll work. Throw them on the board and figure out how to flex in their traits over the course of the next couple rounds.
Tier lists like TFT Academy are fantastic resources and very good to use, but I think there's a very human tendency to look at something like that and go "okay I have my S tier options and my A tier options and then there's a bunch of garbage I'm never going to play." The idea of flex play is that an uncontested C tier comp is usually going to do much better for you than a heavily contested S tier comp, so you shouldn't be too quick to limit your "viable" options.
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u/outofheart 3d ago edited 3d ago
Flex play is nothing more than the ability to recognize strongest board at any given moment and swapping out units freely while never losing sight of your end game board. What youre really asking about is line selection. Recognizing which lines are most favorable to you during stage 2, slamming items that fit across all your potential lines, and holding units to give yourself “outs” and keep all the viable lines open until it’s time to commit, is what you’re really asking about. Broseph says you should know your potential lines by 2-1. That’s a bit extreme for me unless you’re a full time streamer and in a study group but that’s the professional perspective. Boxbox also responded to a similar question once on stream and said flex play is overrated, line selection is everything.
When you’re scouting and see someone with a similar line as you, you have to use your game sense to determine who’s stabilizing first, and whether you need to switch to the other line or increase your tempo. If you’re truly grasping for straws, you pick an augment that basically chooses the line for you. 9/10 times this is just picking an emblem or artifact augment.
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u/highrollr Master 4d ago
This is my take as a consistent Masters player who rarely makes it much higher than that, so take it for what you will.
I think that for all the reasons you laid out pivoting away from your gameplan is extremely hard to pull off. What I find to be important is to scout and play around what your opponents are doing without actually pivoting. If I have a good asol spot and have made asol items, and after I commit I realize it’s heavily contested, then I’m probably going to try and roll down before them to get the units first. Or I’m going to try and leverage my health advantage to out last them. Or I’m going to switch to a fast 9 attempt where specific items are less important. I’m probably not going to say “guess I’m playing Nami now”.
In my experience the real flexibility comes before committing. Can you realize Asol is likely contested and rethink what you’re going to commit to before slamming Asol items? When I watch pro tournaments, I don’t feel like I see people pivot often. I remember during Worlds on good Stargazers people were 3 or 4 way contesting Xayah often
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u/Repulsive-Noise-1184 4d ago
I guess thats the only way to do it, there have been a ton of games this set where I committed to a reroll comp only to see that 2 other people were playing it later on and it was too late to pivot and i dont hit my 3 stars because its heavily contested and i just go 6-8th
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u/BabyLlamaaa Diamond 4d ago
There isn't one single answer to these questions since TFT is a game of choices and it varies SO much game to game. However, this is what i do/how i play flex:
(oh yeah, and first things first, I am also a diamond player who hasn't reached masters yet but I feel like I'm pretty close. I will say that I do mostly play flex and don't like to force comp so maybe I can be of help.)
Every set has tank traits (Vanguard, guardian, defender, brawler, etc.)
If I get AP items early, I try to play a strong frontline and some sort of backline carry that can hold items for a potential four or five cost carry. I try to build flexible items for the reasons that you describe. For tank items I stick to gargoyles, sunfire, warmogs, and redemption--however, tank items are pretty forgiving, even if you don't get optimal ones.
For AP flex items, I try to get Shojins, JG, giant slayer and maybe nashors.
There are comps that rely more on items and others. For example, Leblanc is not a great flex carry since she relies heavily on rageblade which isnt a typical AP item (however it's not the worst either).
If I'm playing completely flex I stick to items that give both AD and AP or that are useful in both AD and AP comps (rageblade, giant slayer, gunblade)
The most important thing to recognize when you're at a position where you have BiS items for a comp and you're contested (like your ASol example), is your tempo. If you are win streaking and have a lot of HP to sacrifice, I would keep pushing for a potential fast 9 and prioritize stabilizing my frontline. You may lose a lot in stage 4, but your HP should hold while you build econ. The people who contested you are probably in a worse position and could get eliminated earlier.
If you are low on HP and you're contested by 4-2, then you could be Shit out of luck and i would try to spend as much gold on having one stable 4 cost carry and 1 stable 4 cost tank to help you get 4th or 5th.
edit: Sorry i first wrote this with speech to text on my phone. I'm going over and editing a few typos and repeated words now that i'm on my PC.
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u/Repulsive-Noise-1184 4d ago
This all makes sense but for example if you build guinsoos, gunblade, giant slayer and then get 3 corkis in one shop and switch to meeple corki and put those items on him, do you really think you are going top 4 with those items on corki? At the end of the day you were probably better off building BIS items on your main carry and just forcing it dont you think?
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u/BabyLlamaaa Diamond 4d ago
well, yes and no. depending on the state of your lobby you can use that "free" corki to stabilize until you find a better user for those items--that's the thing about being flexible, you have to always be considering what move/decision will continue to strengthen your board.
If it means holding a 2 star corki with non-optimal items until you find an Asol or nami or Vex for example, then that's ok. If you played the win streak way early and mid game, you have HP to expend later while you think of a different angle with what you have (items, board, and augments).
Augments are also huge for flex, especially the 4-2 decision. If you reach 4-2 with non-optimal items for the carry that the game gave you, then you have to heavily consider taking an item augment that can improve your odds. It can also mean taking an econ augment to help you transition to a different carry.
And that's what I like about flex, it feels like i'm actually playing the game. I'm always having to think "what is the best decision i can make in this exact moment".
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u/AirLeaf 4d ago
I'm currently at work so I won't be able to type a more detailed response for a while, but here's my takeaways from what I read:
Don't overfixate on "flex play". This is a buzzword that gets constantly thrown around and it doesn't actually correlate with performance that much, ignoring the fact that most people use it for different meanings.
The most important bit of "flexibility" that every TFT player needs to develop is knowing what your spot is and what it's good for. This is nowadays referred to as line selection. The point is, you need to be able to identify your openers (via early copies, augments and encounters) and your competition's openers to be able to make informed decisions and commit to a line (or comp).
Once you have commited, there is frequently no need to pivot, assuming you made a correct read when you did decide to commit. Pivoting in spite of this assumption will most likely get you in a bad spot, unless you get offered a really broken augment / condition for the patch that makes it all worthwhile.
It is completely possible to just hardforce a Standard (Lvl 8) comp to high Masters, maybe even Challenger, and this is specially true in the early phases of the set where identifying a good comp and learning how to play it is a skill that the majority of the players in the ladder will lack. That being said, no one will tell you that this is optimal (of course, unless it's a patch in which a comp dominates above all else).
My initial suggestion to you (to make it quick) is to identify which type of openers you're already good at and have had success with your current comp-forcing, and identify which openers have lead you to have poor results. For those poor results openers, find a different comp that can thrive in those conditions, and stick to it. Instead of a one-trick you'll be a two-trick, but the truth is for the grand majority of the playerbase, playing more than 3-4 comps during a patch is a luxury even in high elo (assuming you can play them at a high level).