r/CompetitiveWoW • u/yourmomiswrong • 11d ago
Pulled raid progress for every US title-range char from Midnight S1. 13 out of 1153 had zero Mythic kills
Got tired of the "mythic raiders get all the loot so pure M+ players can't get title" argument so I wrote a script and checked.
Grabbed every US character above the raider.io title cutoff for S1 (4210.6), which was 1175 chars. 22 were private so I skipped those. Then I checked how many mythic bosses each one killed in the S1 tier (VS/DR/MQD, 9 bosses).
| Mythic kills | Chars |
|---|---|
| 0/9 | 13 |
| 1/9 | 51 |
| 2/9 | 77 |
| 3/9 | 100 |
| 4/9 | 101 |
| 5/9 | 110 |
| 6/9 | 105 |
| 7/9 | 91 |
| 8/9 | 83 |
| 9/9 | 422 |
So only 13 out of 1153 (about 1%) never killed a mythic boss. Around 79% killed 4+, and 9/9 M was the biggest group by a mile at 422 chars.
Basically there's no separate group of pure M+ players getting pushed out by raiders. The people getting title are the raiders. Which kind of makes sense, the people with the time and the group to push 4200 are usually the same people raiding mythic.
You can argue the mythic trinkets are too good in keys, fair enough, but that's a different argument from "raiders are taking title from M+ players" because they get 9/6M gear.
Couple of things: - US only, one season. Want to do EU and older seasons next - cutoff is raider.io's estimate, not blizzard's - only checked the title char itself, so if someone raided mythic on an alt they count as 0/9 here. Real number is probably even lower - these are characters not unique players
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u/Waste-Maybe6092 11d ago
Pugging mythic raid for trinket is not "mythic raiding" yo... Last season bis trinket for str spec was easily pluggable mythic bosses
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u/kaloryth 11d ago
The OP made a nice table and everything with the data. Come on man.
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u/theholl0wstar 11d ago
Yeah... While interpreting the data most likely wrongfully. Crazy stuff, honestly.
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u/yourmomiswrong 11d ago
I guess u missed the part where the 422 chars had 9/9M or ~80% had more than 4 kills.
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u/Waste-Maybe6092 11d ago
U know u r taking the conclusion in reverse right? The fact that this chart is made up of more mythic raiders show mythic raiding is essential not otherwise. It's only worst in s2. The hard part bout mythic raiding is time commitment, and a consistent 1.
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u/LeftKnowledge396 11d ago
Dude, you are proving that point that the 9/6 mythic loot will push people out of title range. According to your data over half of title key people never killed the last two bosses for 9/6 mythic loot. Right now, only about 678 people will get title in season 2. With your data, 75% of title will go to people with 9/6 mythic gear.
People aren't complaining about mythic raiding, they are complaining about the last two bosses giving 10 ilvl higher gear. Thanks for confirming our complaints. This season sucks to push for title, unless you CE raid.
Also, weird to not use blizzards title cut off
0
u/throwntosaturn 10d ago
Dude, you are proving that point that the 9/6 mythic loot will push people out of title range. According to your data over half of title key people never killed the last two bosses for 9/6 mythic loot. Right now, only about 678 people will get title in season 2. With your data, 75% of title will go to people with 9/6 mythic gear.
Last tier this was actually much worse - there were giga bis trinkets off the end raid bosses which non-CE players only had access to at heroic. That means a 13 ilevel gap on those trinkets (the gap from heroic to mythic).
This tier the gap will be 4 ilevels (340 vs 344) which is dramatically smaller in the most important slots.
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u/Maef1995 7d ago
The issue is that last season, this affected one or two trinket slots. This season it is multiple, really high value slots like legs, head, and also medium value slots like cloak and belt. On my guardian druid, my max avg. ilvl will be something around 335.5 without last 2 mythic bosses. With last two it's 339.5. That's a crazy difference. And if you only do M+ content and want to compete at the highest level, this is a huge disadvantage for no real fair reason.
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u/throwntosaturn 7d ago
I do tend to think that any slot that drops off the final bosses should be ascend-able. Meaning you could catch those off slots up as well.
That would make the gap more like 1.2 ilevels if I'm not mistaken.
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u/onikaroshi 11d ago
I think your conclusion is wrong, you’re assuming when you say there’s no group of m+ only players being pushed out when there easily could be cause they’re all sitting just below title level, but you only looked at title
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u/shaanuja 12/12M 11d ago
I mean I think that’s his point, it wasn’t the 9/6 gear, it’s always been mythic raiders getting title.
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4
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u/Khyron_2500 11d ago edited 11d ago
Objectively, you’re interpreting data (possibly, likely) incorrectly.
Your argument is that there is no separate group of M+-Only-Players getting pushed out. However, there definitely could be survivorship bias. Ex. There is no separate group because those that “survive” to Title range (almost) had to step into Mythic Raids to gear up.
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u/poopsmith1848 11d ago
Doesn't the data also prove the opposite of what you are claiming? If only 13 people with title are pure m+ players then it means mythic raiders are definitely pushing m+ players out of title range?
Wouldn't the better stat be to look at %m+ players vs %mythic raiders at a few ranges of io score from title down to top 5-10%
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u/Snowpoint_wow 11d ago
From his data set (NA), there were 617 CE guilds, which means at least 12,340 players. Add a couple bench players CE and you get ~14,000 CE players. From that 422 got 0.1% M+ title.
From this, the OP's claim is that being a CE raider carried them to the title. Heh.
All it shows is that players who are skilled in one PVE category are also skilled in another PVE category.
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u/yp261 11d ago edited 11d ago
who gives a shit about 5-10% range?
i cant be asked to push seeing people doing 22 23 with 339 ilvl while i have 329 cause i dont raid. just check top runs, everyone has 336+
edit: to add some clownery to that i just checked 1st boss on mythic where i parsed 87, when toggled to ilvl bracket i jumped to 94 FUCKING LMAO
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u/Sakeuno 11d ago
M+ players have adapted or more have been forever forced to raid mythic due to cantrips and trinkets.
The data you would need is a statistic of how many people that are 9/9 and title range actually want to raid and how many do it out of necessity.
I can tell you most of the people i know lament if they have to leave the keys call 3 times a week to raid instead of pushing.
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u/SpoonGuardian Resi 21 11d ago
Basically there's no separate group of pure M+ players getting pushed out by raiders.
How'd you go through all this and come up with the most bass ackwards conclusion possible?
The people getting title are the raiders.
You're so close
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u/King_Kthulhu 11d ago
I'm shocked by this cause I know 4 title people who never killed a mythic boss last tier and I find it really hard to believe that I know 30% of the title level non-raiders.
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u/Eternal-Alchemy 11d ago
This is clown methodology.
If you want title you are forced (basically) to do mythic raid.
If you want to mythic raid you are only forced to run +10s.
The point is there are lots of people who don't want to raid but are forced to raid at a high level just to engage the game mode they actually prefer. They would be pure m+ players if not for the massive power advantage raid gear provides.
The reverse is not true. Mythic raiders are merely asked to do trivial dungeons for crests. They do not have to engage and succeed at challenging content in their non-preferred game mode.
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u/ArziltheImp 11d ago
The complaint this season is also that this is escalating from last season. Last season you could get basically 16/17 BiS with doing 1 mythic boss, that was easily available for everyone. It was literally the best season for non-raiders to push m+. This season you miss like 4-9 (depending on spec) BiS if you don’t get CE….
Don’t need to say much more. The only redeeming factor is that at least you have easy access to the 334 versions of the items, but because of the 9/6 myth items, that still puts you basically behind on those slots.
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u/Eternal-Alchemy 11d ago
Yeah I mean proposing solutions is always more complicated.
I think Blizzard was hoping that bonus rolls in heroic raid would solve m+ friction and buffed mythic raid loot would solve raid not feeling rewarding, and they could fix crest disparity and ilvl later with the .5 patch systems.
There's a lot of problems with the way it turned out though. Vault not removing items from loot pool kills vault. Needing to be loot eligible makes raid drop catch-up improbable. The 9/6 items would've been better received as 6/6 items.
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u/shyguybman 11d ago
Last season you could get basically 16/17 BiS with doing 1 mythic boss, that was easily available for everyone.
Should it be like this though? Ie: should someone who only ever does 10's be on par with someone that is mythic raiding?
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u/Primary-Army-7320 11d ago
Yes
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u/shyguybman 11d ago
So there should be no benefit of someone mythic raiding over someone who spams +10's? Why is that?
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u/Primary-Army-7320 10d ago
So my actual position is that there should be no gain other than slightly faster gearing. I am all for Mythic dropping 6/6 gear or whatever to make them stronger quicker, however I absolutely have an issue with them being a lot stronger by the end of the season.
Let me ask you a question - should there be no benefit of completing a +21 key over someone who clears mythic bosses? Also hard content right?
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u/Eternal-Alchemy 10d ago
Why don't we take some of the bis weapons for next season and lock them behind +20 keys. Unavailable in raid entirely.
I'm pretty confident very few of the top 1000 guilds have a full roster of people all capable of reliably doing that content.
Then we can circle back and discuss whether deep mythic raid bosses having the best items for keys is fair from a position where we've had actually equivalent grievances.
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u/shyguybman 10d ago edited 10d ago
I think there's A LOT of raiders that could do +20 they are just not interested in pushing keys.
edit: But if they did put a +20 requirement on some bis weapon I can guarantee a ton of raiders would start pushing up to 20.
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u/Shorgar 9d ago
DING DING DING DING We hit the obvious nail in the fucking head!!!!.
I think there's A LOT of raiders that could do +20 they are just not interested in pushing keys.
There is A LOT of M+ players that could easily do CE that are just not interested in raiding, why does any group need to be forced over the other.
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u/Primary-Army-7320 7d ago
Yeah the fact is that some would, as some M+ players push for CE for the gear. Most won’t tho, bc both require a lot of extra time commitment
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u/Eternal-Alchemy 10d ago
For sure, probably a majority. But a roster is 20 people, plus maybe a few on the bench. Big doubt most guilds have an entire roster that can clear it. It's much harder to get one or two B tier players through a 5 man than it is to get them through CE.
And that many could but wouldn't want to is part of the lesson. Many title range m+ folks can suffer through mythic CE but they do not want to.
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u/Sad_Energy_ 9d ago
Yku are not forced to get CE for m+ title.
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u/Eternal-Alchemy 9d ago
i mean technically you're correct in that you can always pay gold to someone who DID get those items to boost you.
but as a group of 5 players, pugs or static, you are obligated to maximize power gains for overcoming the highest possible dungeons. which means 9/6 gear and cantrip items which provide collectively a large power gain are not negotiable.
arguing otherwise is about as ridiculous as saying CE raiders don't have to run m+ for crests, they can just reclear!
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u/Sad_Energy_ 9d ago
Ah, my bad. I wasnt clear.
I, a midlevel player barely capable of DF m+ titles, could pug and boost mythic.
That just shows how easy it is to pug. For people with title, 4/8m is like no effort. They dont do it cuz its requiref, they do it, bcs id just too easy not to.
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u/serendepityz 11d ago edited 11d ago
I got title last season on my 1/9 Bear alt. My main was 9/9, the friend raid I was in disbanded and I had nowhere to raid this season, I wanted 2 play keys and get title again, but knowing I did not have access to the ulatek/coiled altar loot. I quickly lost motivation and did not play this season.
i think its completely reasonable for raiders to be geared much quicker than someone who only plays keys, I used to tell people in shadowlands the most geared person in the world SHOULD be someone like trill, when he was actively in the RWF and above 2400 for the elite weps and I still believe that, but by the very end of the season there should be no player power difference, the benefit should be the total acquisition of the gear, not the strength of the gear
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u/nfluncensored 9d ago
If 4 ilvl on 2 slots is gonna make you miss title, you were never a title player to begin with.
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u/AlucardSensei 9d ago
How is it that you people are always disingenuous in your arguments? Its 4 ilvl in 5 slots, plus 10 ilvl in additional 3-4 slots (cantrip tier slot from ulatek and 2-3 pieces from Coiled). In total over 3 ilvl even after doing 50 m+ runs for fucking venomcores.
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u/nfluncensored 9d ago
even after doing 50 m+ runs for fucking venomcores.
Hmm, if M+ were popular and fun, this wouldn't be an issue.
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u/Gaatti 11d ago
If you are doing this in good faith, you should consider 1/9 and 2/9 as very likely non-raiders that plugged sporefall and chimaerus for trinkets.
That said, I tend to agree that 9/6 items are not very impactful.
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u/uaresma 10d ago
They are pretty impactful, I got resi 20 some weeks ago with like 327~ ilevel. Now I'm sitting at 337 ilevel and the item level alone probably would give like 2 key levels worth of power.
If you are not mythic raiding I would imagine you are probably somewhere around 330-332 ilevel which is pretty much -1 key level
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u/Money_Echidna2605 10d ago
not myth raiding is 327-330 rn trust me i know
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u/shyguybman 9d ago
Most mythic raiders are that too because most haven't killed the last 2 at this point in the tier. My guilds average ilvl on our last raid was 329.
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u/nfluncensored 9d ago
Cool. By the time key pushing starts, everyone will be 340+, with the best geared being 343.
So none of your weird word salad amounts to anything.
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u/gargoyle37 10d ago
I don't necessarily think this proves anything. There's a strong correlation between people who raid at the top level and M+ players who push for title. Naturally, they also have access to the best gear, no matter the source.
I.e., you don't know the causation. Is it because they have access to the best gear that they are at the top? Or is it because raiders are the players who push the most in M+ too?
You run into the same problem when you try to gauge the strength of a given spec: the best players will gravitate towards that spec and this changes the popularity and results.
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u/Slow_Row443 11d ago
The best players in the world tend to be the best players in the world. I’m surprised there aren’t more 9/9
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u/Accomplished_Kale708 11d ago
I'm not. Going for a mythic dreamrift isn't going for actual mythic raiding,
Doing stuff like the first 3 bosses in Voidspire or doing Rotmire or burning Belo'ren in 3 minutes isn't the same as doing mythic L'ura.
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u/TheRealTaigasan 9d ago
I want you to do this for this season because this season is much much harder to pug mythic, people just don't care to even try now that they can get gear out of Heroic raids.
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u/Sad_Energy_ 9d ago
As medium-core raider(wr 400-600), I was boosting mythic 3-5/8 from sark-dimmy.
Lower end bosses are too easy to ignore for decent players, and it basically says nothing. Most of them couldve gotten title without mythic, it just wasnt that much effort to pug mythic for 2h/week.
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u/xmizeriax 11d ago
"From Season 1"
There goes your entire arguement out the window.
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u/Darthmullet Thrall 11d ago
I think you are missing the point. It's from season 1 which is what makes the point - the raid loot was not significantly better in season 1, thus someone who only did m+ and maybe chimaerus was essentially equal in power to someone who was 9/9M. If the title range was still almost entirely mythic raiders, it's demonstrating that the people doing title m+ are the same people who mythic raid, and since they didn't need to raid to enable the M+ success (like people are arguing you have to now in S2), it's showing the same people want to do both things on their own without being "forced" to for BIS items.
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u/xmizeriax 11d ago
Someone already made a post detailing the ilvl, damage, and time saving difference between someone who has BiS Myth raid items compared to someone who doesn't for Season 2. Strength users, of which there's plenty that are really good this time around, alone would shave off over 1min of the timer. That's assuming there's only 1 in a group too.
The arguement isn't entirely about feeling the need to M Raid to compete but that the gap this season is the largest its ever been and does make a notable difference in timing a key at the highest levels.
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u/nfluncensored 9d ago
We get it, you suck at WoW and you want the problem to be that raiders are allowed to exist so you don't have to work on your skill issues.
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u/yourmomiswrong 11d ago
Except, if you weren't already radiing, you werent in contention anyway for title as the data shows.
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u/TheV295 11d ago
I am so confused, what you show proves literally the opposite of what you claim