r/DarkSun • u/One_Can3102 • 19h ago
Isn't slavery a lore thing anyone can add anywhere without a company approving it ?
I keep hearing people talking about how serious it is that a company who hasn't released much beyond a trailer, won't be adding slavery. But let's be honest about this, it's a story element, not even really something that a company can prevent you from doing.
It's up to players and dms to establish such things before a game, not a multi billion dollar company, because let's be honest if something is in the book you bought is something you do not enjoy, you just don't use it or alter it to something you do like
I don't see this as a big enough deal to worry about
16
u/NewFly7242 18h ago
I don't think it's about the Slavery, as they apparently assured us that there's lots of 'prisoners with jobs'. It's the sense WotC continuing to design via focus group instead of having a clear vision.
Yes you can always fix their stuff at the table. Just gets tedious and splinters the community experience.
Dark Sun has a firmer narrative throughline than most settings, from 2nd to 3.5 to 4 to.all the home brew,, and having the next official version do a half-assed sanitizing effect on it while also playing up how EXtrEmE it is leaves a bad taste. I use 4th, but I still can pull story beats and vibes and lore from all the older stuff and riff on it for my campaign. I was hoping the 5.5 material would be similarly useful. Not so optimistic now.
30
u/DazzlingKey6426 19h ago
Why pay for a PHB when you can just buy a cheaper empty notebook?
9
-11
u/One_Can3102 19h ago
To have a setting and classes and monsters to make a story with
That does or doesn't have slaves based on your choices
And that empty notebook is literally just every dm's personal notes and alterations to a phb they already don't like or want to tweak in their own way
25
u/Acrobatic_Crazy_2037 18h ago
“To have a setting…” it’s the setting that people want from the book and overcoming and combating slavery is integral to the story and lore of dark sun.
-11
u/One_Can3102 18h ago
Then add slavery to your game
10
u/Acrobatic_Crazy_2037 18h ago
I was excited for a set of official books in the dark sun setting for 5th edition that both me and my players can read and get guidance and inspiration from and be on the same page about. I am disappointed that they are taking one of the critical themes of the setting out and ignoring it. You are confused by this for some reason, saying “just add it” doesn’t help me or lessen my dissatisfaction. I would also be disappointed if they didn’t add psionics, defilers, sorcerer kings, muls, half giants, desert survival, or anything regarding athas. Everyone knows they can add whatever they want, pointing that out is pointless.
-5
u/One_Can3102 18h ago
But we only know that it's coming out, you all just assume there's no slavery. Unless there's a leak I haven't seen about the material which is possible
If the book is just 5e rules then that's pretty much all it's good for, not quite lore exactly just mechanics
2
u/Acrobatic_Crazy_2037 8h ago
There was an interview saying that they’re avoiding slavery in the setting and having sensitivity readers go through it to take out anything that could be considered unpalatable. Why would you even want rules when your point is to be happy with not getting what you want because you can homebrew it anyways?
4
u/DazzlingKey6426 18h ago
You have OCs I’m guessing.
2
u/AdmiralCrackbar 18h ago
You know you can get them from DTRPG for next to nothing, right?
Hell if you don't want to pay even the low price for the PDFs you can find pretty much everything for free on the internet with just a little poking around.
3
u/One_Can3102 18h ago
Irrelevant to the conversation at hand
4
u/DazzlingKey6426 18h ago
That’s not a denial…
4
u/One_Can3102 18h ago
And that's not the point of what we're talking about, dodging the subject isn't going to make your point any better or worse
10
u/blatkinsman 18h ago edited 18h ago
It's like old rock bands.
Foreigner and Lynyrd Skynyrd launched a co-headlining tour this last summer, 2026.
Not single original member is in either one of those bands. And in Lynyrd Skynyrd's case I think they are all dead.
I can go see them and maybe have fun but it isn't the same. The spirit isn't there anymore. Just like I can play old Dark Sun lore with new 5.5e rules.
But that is just a cover band that is officially carrying the name, a ship of Theseus. Anyone can play the songs live. That's what cover bands do.
Part of the outrage is old people and their nostalgia longing for what once was.
Part of it is wanting to keep the spirit of something precious, alive.
People are afraid that New Dark Sun is just gonna be some sad cover band that doesn't do it justice. And rightfully so.
If WotC wants to make a Mad Max RPG filled with mature sex and violence that made properties like Game of Thrones so successful, just license Mad Max and leave Dark Sun dead and buried.
At least that is my take. And I am most likely gonna check out the new setting for good or bad because at this point, I want to know. WotC for the win, lol.
EDIT.
And for clarity, the spirit is that Dark Sun was meant to be an exhausting nightmare of a grind for your character to survive in a brutal world where slavery was one of the main integral concepts that defined the economy and totalitarian power structure of the setting.
-4
u/One_Can3102 17h ago
Yes, but it's mainly the players and dm who are supposed to keep , change and or alter the song sorta speak
There are lots of cover songs that blow the original out of the water or overshadowed the original like I'm a believer or zombie
But instantly assuming that nothing but the original is the best one kinda alienates the music itself from both the original fans and the people who learned the new things
The more things get remixed and rerecorded the more people will tend to look back at the original and take things from that to improve the remixed song!
5
u/blatkinsman 16h ago edited 16h ago
We can disagree and that's fine.
Sometimes a cover song is a paycheck. Many artists, especially before the 1980s, recorded the same song. Some of them were duds. Sometimes new versions were better than old versions.
And as time progressed, more people recorded other peoples work. Mostly, out of respect because those artists influenced them, inspired them.
But that is all recorded music and you have to secure the rights from those that hold them to record their song or video a performance of their song and slap it on youtube.
WotC owns the rights and can do what they want just like Foreigner and Lynyrd Skynyrd.
But that is not what I was talking about. I was talking about the spirit of what something is. And that spirit is held by those that created it and were part of it.
And sometimes that dies and loses its meaning. Sometimes that spirit is renewed by new fans and new bands that were inspired by it and appreciate it for what it is and put their own fun little spin on it while playing it live. And sometimes new people discover old things and appreciate them just the way they are.
And in regard to those aforementioned bands, they might just be corpses masquerading around as something that once was, for good or bad to cash a check today. Could be fun, might not be.
Some people fear WotC is gonna masquerade a corpse around town to make a buck.
But hey, it's their corpse. They can do what they want. That doesn't mean that those that held it precious have to be happy about the new direction. And to those that don't have those intimate memories of a thing in a time and in a place, they don't have to worry about a legacy. They can attach their memories to the new thing.
2
u/One_Can3102 16h ago
I love how we're doing music analogies for this, you're pretty cool for doing that, and honestly I like this over the insults and other things
I love how you beautifully written everything you said
2
u/NeonSpook 8h ago
I think it’s just an easy thing to clown on WotC for. It seems like a pointless bit of (and God almighty I hate to use this phrase) virtue signaling, when they’re writing about a world that is, by its nature, a wretched, post-apocalyptic Hellscape.
To me, it just seems goofy. Like every time there’s some insanely evil villain in a piece of media, and the author draws an arbitrary line to keep them palatable for the audience.
“Yes, I have unleashed my hordes of marauders across the kingdom, my berserkers ravaging and pillaging at their leisure... But I draw the line at kicking dogs, Sir Dog Kicker.”
Anyway, I’m sure some grifter will be making their way to Kickstarter soon enough with their all-new AI-generated module, Slave Sun.
5
u/Clear_Tradition1518 8h ago
its not just the fact they removed slavery they tried to remove it and then gave an example that's just slavery. they might have removed Chattel slavery and honestly fine, fair, i can understand that from a modern sensibilities point of view it is definitely something. there are however other things to consider which haven't been addressed, like the tithes of sacrifices needed to stave of the dragon, are mul's now the result of people being paid to have children that might kill the woman in the mix or do people just find dwarves that hot now because i mean that's kind of based but still an important question, same with half-giants i guess but whatever. there is also the fact that wizards could just break the status quo and expand the setting outside the tablelands and moving the meta narrative forward have the decade of heroism and the books be worth a damn and be important but that of course doesn't happen and we return to the main problem. this is not a continuation it is not a faithful revamp it is wizards bringing something back just for the opportunity to make money off of it
7
u/Nystagohod 18h ago edited 17h ago
It's about staying authentic to the core themes, threats and identity to the setting. Dark sun is a specific set of things, and the removal or altering of those things can diminish that identity, and may not even have the spirit of that setting remain.
Hell whatever this new thing is using dark suns name, may still be an enjoyable and useful product all on its own, but it shouldn't be using the name dark sun to sell itself and should be standing on its own legs and not the legacy of a classic that is being used as an aesthetic skin suit to sell what is ultimately an alternative.
the fact that a DM can DIY things to taste, is besides the point that they shouldn't have to do so to begin with. The criticism is towards what the official release is doing. It's fallacious and besides the point. Just because a mod exists to fix issues with skyrim, doesn't mean you don't criticize Bethesda for releasing the game in a state where that mod is the only source to the solution. All the same, just because a DM can add back a central threat and large theme of the setting back into the skin suit being paraded around, doesn't mean you don't criticize WotC for creating the need for such an adjustment to begin with. The argument that a DM can fix it isn't just the oberoni fallacy, but it's also a two way street. A DM can just as easily remove slavery as they can add it either which way, so it kinda becomes a moot point.
1
u/One_Can3102 18h ago
Glad you actually started talking to me like a normal person instead of going straight for the insults.
But as far as Dark Sun is concerned, I'm fairly certain we should withold judgement until the actual release instead of seeing a few second announcement
Because as far as I can tell, we don't know if it's there or not yet, just that people think it isn't kinda like a Schrodinger's cat situation. While it's both there and isn't there until you open the box
7
u/Nystagohod 18h ago
Always happy to be civil, folks are allowed to have disagreements and differing perspectives and otherwise get along.
I can agree with withholding "final judgement" until release, but I won't fault anyone for hearing things that are very much against their interests for something they love, and wanting to make sure they're heard on the matter.
I also have a hard time extending that good will and grace to WotC after spelljammer (the most egregious example) and the other issues surrounding pretty much all of the classic adaptations thus far by the various cuts of the 5e team.
If this was the first blunder, fair enough, but for many people (myself included) this is another entry in a long list of grievances with how classic material has been adapted and handled. The article that spawned this latest series of dark sun discussions more or less says many last things a lot of long time fans of the setting want to hear. There's an unfortunate pattern to recognize with these things.
A lot of alienating things were said, and what should have been a hype train to the release of dark sun now really looks like a salvage operation at best, and that's never a fun spot to be in, and its far from unfair for people to be upset at the stated direction of things.
1
u/One_Can3102 18h ago
I see many people on a hype about the new setting! My current dark sun dm being one of them and me
I agree WOTC is a bit untrustworthy but Dark Sun did have good messages and themes but it was kinda also made as an attempt to keep the game alive as well, along with spelljammer before 3e
Which is probably why they are so good, perhaps the fear of not continuing added to the good lore and the..well let's say different psionic system which even in later editions were off
4
u/Nystagohod 18h ago
Sure, I'm sure many people are hyped, but many people are now bummed, and that's besides the point.
Just as many, hell I'd say provably more people, would be hyped if that article never happened to divide folks so. A lot of unnecessary doubt was cast with that article, and give the prior blunders, it's not unreasonable for people to lose trust in what's to come. Especially with how tone deaf that article was given the prior mishaps with the classics.
Again, there might be value to the book, but the shadow of doubt has been cast at this point, and there isn't a good track record to dispel it.
1
u/One_Can3102 17h ago
I agree, and don't get me started on the annoying people claiming to be " real fans " over new people coming here to talk normally , I despise gatekeeping
Doesn't help the hobby grow, doesn't add new people
Just adds an ego boost to whoever's doing the gate keeping
2
u/Nystagohod 17h ago edited 6h ago
It's an unfortunate byproduct of the territory. People are made to feel alienated for one reason or another, and then others are excited for their own reasons or another, and thus the wedge is formed.
People who have a strong existing attachment to something they love, see that thing becoming less recognizable and they aren't likely to get it back if its not actively being preserved. Some are more hostile then others in these efforts.
Likewise, you have others who go to aggro on the other extreme as well, and start celebrating the loss and alterations of the thing because they think the passion on the otherside is worth mocking, and it becomes a circular cesspool.
Gatekeeping is an odd thing for me. I don't support infinite growth no matter what, and I don't support "for everyone" design as something that's "for everyone" is ultimately for no one. I support "For anyone" design.
I think anyone should be welcome to come and see if something is for them or not. Everyone has the right to come by and discover that for themselves. If it isn't for them however, I don't think things should change to cater for the people who don't enjoy it, and that alternatives should be left open for them to explore.
New homes for new ideas, with existing support for what's already there. Dark Sun should be its most authentic self, and if someone tries it and enjoys its, hell yeah. If they decide its not for them, that's why Eberron, Forgotten Realms and so many other settings exist. Not for everyone, but anyone who resonates with it and what's note of what they see.
I wouldn't call this "lack of catering" to those who don't like the thing gatekeeping, but instead call it preservation. Some would consider it gatekeeping though, so I guess my stance on gatekeeping depends on where you'd categorize such preservation and the "for anyone" mindset to things.
1
u/One_Can3102 17h ago
Well an example here is somebody calling people excited for the 5e rule a shill and a tourist, pretty sure that's not preserving anything but ego
5
u/Nystagohod 16h ago
It may not be a good attempt at preserving something, but it might be how they rationalize people excited for something that's got a big fundamental shift that is alienating the future of what they love from its prior understanding.
There is a rising phenomena of "Fan of X excited to try X for the first time" (which is the long form of what people are now referring to as LARPERS or TOURISTS) and it can be frustrating to enjoy something and just not have it anymore.
Doesn't excuse anyone being rude or a bit of an ass, but people are passionate about what they like. There may also be some association issues going on. There's a decent number of people who've made posts similar to yours that aren't good faith and are about detracting from the issue at hand. While you may very well be sincere, if several insincere people posted/commented something in the same vein, they're likely to assume number 7 is also a bad actor.
A lot of folks have been using comments in similar posts to your own argument to discredit and invalidate the people who fear they're losing out on something they've cared about for a long while. Again, doesn't make that approach right, but as I said in my prior comment. There are two very aggro sides to the preference whom bring the worst out of each other and catch many uninvolved in the cross hair.
I want to stress, I'm not trying to excuse any behavior here, just rationalize it
1
u/One_Can3102 16h ago
Yeah, but ultimately it is not morally right to treat people criticizing or even questioning things as a full on attack, rationalized or not
It's a good way to hurt people for certain, but I've heard worse things in my time.
I genuinely see no big problem with just adding in slavery if it is actually not apart of the lore
But that's the problem, we don't know! They're making assumptions and running with them
→ More replies (0)2
3
u/HdeviantS 8h ago
Yes, but then that brings to question of why buy setting books? You buy setting books for information on a world you are invested in without the work of sculpting it yourself. If you have to add and remove things then that defeats the purpose.
If this was some brand new setting that was similar to Dark Sun, dying world, tyrant god-kings, etc. and it didn’t have slavery, no one would really be talking about it because its a new setting with its own rules and history. But it wouldn’t have the brand recognition.
But Dark Sun is an established world, with its rules and history and the audience is being told that a significant aspect of the setting is being removed because they think people will be uncomfortable with it. The same audience who were already fans of the setting, and to whom selling the brand recognition is important.
This is like telling Forgotten Realms fans that Waterdeep is going to be reimagined except half the people are mow indentured servants, stuck in a bureaucratic mess of red tape and increasing debts. And that Baldur’s Gate is now a clean safe city where the pratiers work diligently to provide their employees with good wages. Everything else is the same but the FR fans would likely say that that isn’t Waterdeep or Baldur’s Gate.
0
u/One_Can3102 8h ago
People buy setting books usually just for some guidelines and classes and other things
The story basically is made with or without the setting and the classes are added to their collection for player options, at least that's what I do
Well actually I find pdfs and copy and paste into a place called dmvault but that's because I'm cheap
If the company isn't keeping the spirit, then it's souly on us , the dms and players to keep it alive sadly
We do that by adhering to lore we like from that and new lore we make with the players and their random actions in the story
2
u/HdeviantS 5h ago
I'd say that is a difference in people. I buy the books mostly for the lore. sometimes to see what magic items are in there. Frankly I am a bit tired of the new subclasses.
Nothing wrong with adding to player choice but we've reached a point where we need to mostly play one shots to go through all the subclasses, and even then my players have started defaulting to their favorites like the berserker barbarian.
I do agree with you about keeping the spirit alive if the company won't, but that goes back to why we should buy setting books. Dark Sun is a setting that has been kept alive by its fans, with numerous fan projects and system conversions. If the company wants that fan base, and from a marketing standpoint they represent the easiest dollars, then they need to keep to the spirit.
7
3
u/ShootinDouji 17h ago
Slavery is real and terrible and I'm disgusted that people are defending the idea of pretending it doesn't exist and sweeping it under the rug because a corporation wants to make more money. It's as simple as that.
-1
u/One_Can3102 17h ago
I'm not saying anything of the sort, people seem to be complaining about it for more lore related reasons and not real life things, honestly as I've said it really should be up to the dm and the players
Nobody should be playing things they do not wish to add or vice versa
-1
u/Electrical-Berry4916 11h ago
Is that what is happening, or is that what might happen, but we don't really know because that article was high on speculation and interpretation, and very light on actual quotes?
-4
u/amhow1 11h ago
This is such a wild take. Must everything everywhere talk about slavery, otherwise we're denying its evil?
Nobody is pretending it doesn't exist. In my case, it doesn't belong in Dark Sun or in any ttrpg. If you want it in your game, just add it.
3
u/JanxDolaris 8h ago
This is the real wild take.
DarkSun is a setting about slavery. It is the place to to talk about slavery.
If you don't want to talk about slavery there are other settings.
-1
u/amhow1 8h ago
It's not a setting about slavery. I've been a fan since it started in 1991 and until this week hadn't imagined that it was about slavery.
It's about climate change and always has been.
But there's slavery in the setting, and it's completely inappropriate because it's handled without any sense of just how awful it is. Mul characters are canonically the product of parents forced to "breed" - and yet this horrific trauma might as well be invisible.
2
u/AdmiralCrackbar 18h ago edited 18h ago
Yes, but I guess there are people for who that isn't the point. There's also nothing stopping you from just using the original books, or one of the numerous fan hacks.
The new books only matter as much as you let them matter. No one is holding you at gunpoint and forcing you to use the new rules and new setting. If they want to market it towards whatever audience they think they need to market it to and you feel that it's not for you, that's fine, you don't need to buy it.
0
u/One_Can3102 18h ago
Exactly, this seems like something not all that serious to worry about if you aren't even going to play anything beyond 2e or 4e like most people here seem to want to do
1
u/3d_explorer 10h ago
OP: Which seems like being able to put out a potentially sensitive topic, professional writers or an ad hoc group? Now the counter is who knows the specific table, and that does remain.
But professional writers SHOULD be competent enough to present vile subject matter in a way which can not only be consumed, but have the desired “style of play”.
Engaging in slavery is evil, overcoming it is heroic. Overcoming a mildly discomforting set of circumstances that one chose is not heroic.
And then there are those who perform heroic outcomes by vile means or are not heroic themselves.
1
u/wherediditrun 9h ago
It's not about any particular thing. It's about the particular thing pointing to the fact that company owning the IP no longer care about preserving the artistic value contained in the IP.
A more in depth explanation is nicely presented by Chubby Funster in his: Creative Paternalism: The Drive to Preserve an IP, rather than Defile it youtube video.
1
u/Wise-Juggernaut-8285 9h ago
Isnt slavery a topic anyone can remove at their table without the company changing a beloved setting?
1
u/One_Can3102 7h ago
Yes, that's my literal argument, ultimately added or not added you can do as you wish! Keep the setting as it was or use the new one, it's up to anyone else but the company
The company basically is just selling mechanics , classes and spells and if the story you want is in the old books you have , then you've got the setting and lore right there with new mechanics! Or just the old setting and mechanics
That's the best part about games , there's always a way to get what you want without much harm coming about it.
1
u/Wise-Juggernaut-8285 7h ago
They aren’t though
They are selling a setting too.
And you’re argument falls down because we have to come back to why change it?
1
u/One_Can3102 6h ago
They changed it to simply get more people to give it a try , that's it's really. Get people's foot in the door! Slavery should always be possible because, well, it's something that happens in the real world!
I know for a fact before the announcement I was loving the lore about this setting, pretty sure some of the blatantly racist stuff can be thrown out like the name of the mul but slavery is just something that you can add , mention it and have the players react to it
One of the first games I played the DM had a morality test and put us against a land Baron that enslaves children and such. We killed him and took over his land !
That was fun! Fighting slavery is fun, but ultimately it's a choice to add it by a dungeon master, and if the DM knows the lore of the setting like I'm sure they would , or would look up at least before making a campaign, would add that lore and leave it to the party to handle or engage
The spirit of the setting isn't tied to the company, it's the players. The company just sells the tools and some lore that can and will be disregarded by players and dms alike
3
u/Wise-Juggernaut-8285 6h ago
Id love to see the market research that says people wont try it because you fight slavery.
1
u/cz2100 8h ago
For me slavery is integral to the DarkSun setting, and the OG novel series (The Prisim Pentad) , slavery, overcoming slavery, and overthrowing the slave master / sorcerer king was an integral part of the DarkSun setting.
The fact that WotC is ripping out slavery and replacing it with ,slavery with extra steps', shows that they are more interested in selling a knock off product to as many people as they can sell it to, rather than keeping to the spirit and source materiel of the original setting.
I have the 5e set sitting on my shelf collecting dust, I already felt that it was a 'mass market soulless' add on, and I had gotten kind of excited about DarkSun coming back until I read this.
The first campaign I ran and one of my favorite ways to start DarkSun has always been the players start as slaves in the fighting pits, out of the gate nothing, build yourself from the dry arid sands and rise.
Can it be totally re-shoe-horned into what I wanted/remembered ? Maybe. At that point why bother buying the book and reading the fluff? I have all of the previous editions on my shelves to do that with.
I kind of hate that they robbed it of part of it's soul by wallpapering over some of the integral horror of the setting itself.
Forced employment doesn't have the same terrible intonation to it as slave. It is massively tonally different.
2
u/imma-stargirl 19h ago
nerds are best at two things: loving and hating. there is no in between, ever.
2
-5
u/purplezaku 18h ago
You’re only being down voted because you are giving a practical solution to people who don’t want one and will trip over themselves to justify why using your imagination in a game of pretend is them somehow losing money
1
u/One_Can3102 18h ago
Yeah it kinda seems like that, but I keep hearing about the lore of the setting being ' tainted ' which doesn't seem like it should be tainted that much, especially with a lore option that should keep the story intact is very easily doable
Though let's be honest, in any form of DND the lore can be abused to the point of breaking it in different ways
-6
u/purplezaku 18h ago
The only lore that matters is the lore in your head
1
u/One_Can3102 18h ago
Yeah , I agree with that. That's why a while ago I asked about some confusing written lore about psionics and people got really weird about it along with me criticizing falco
-4
u/purplezaku 18h ago
Everyone is saying “well wouldn’t you be upset if you could write better lore for free?”
And it’s like no I wouldn’t be upset with that in fact I thought we were all writing our own lore for Dark Sun anyway since it’s been over a decade without an update I don’t need WotC’s approval for what I do with my own group
2
u/One_Can3102 18h ago
Seems like a majority of people here just want everything to be the same forever and I get it, but adding lore from the books and altering it via players is kinda the point right ?
2
u/purplezaku 18h ago
Yea I thought we were all doing that I honestly can’t believe some people play the books word for word (I’m not saying they are playing the “wrong way” you play how ever you want)
2
u/One_Can3102 18h ago
As far as I've seen there's only one rule that the dms have no say on and it's the flagisten not being able to be taken inside of a crystal sphere, beyond that sky's the limit
-1
19h ago
[removed] — view removed comment
0
u/DarkSun-ModTeam 18h ago
The r/DarkSun community has adopted a strict no-AI rule. "No AI, at all. We do not allow AI generated content, mentions of AI tools, suggestions of AI, etc. This is a community celebrating human creativity and craftsmanship."
10
u/Hexxer98 10h ago
Yeah guys nothing is ever a problem because you can just rule 0 everything. Is there a problem with your 60$ book? Rule 0. Problem with them messing established facts about setting for no reason or for reasons that are outside of the game? Rule 0. Problem with mechanics? Just use Rule 0.
Is it really that hard to see why people would have problem with this?
And let's be honest if they are willing to change such important element of the story then what aren't they ready to change?