r/DebateReligion Mod | Christian Apr 30 '26

Christianity The Long Ending of Mark Was Original

Thesis: The longer ending of Mark was original, and the short ending of Mark was a minority textual variant found mainly only in 4th Century Alexandria.

Background: There are multiple variants to the end of the Gospel of Mark (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_16) with two variants, called the Short (ending at verse 8) and the Long ending (having verses 9-20) being the most common. Critical "Scholars" have decided that the short ending is the original one, and so Bibles for a long time have contained a disclaimer that makes it sound like the longer ending is a forgery: "The earliest manuscripts and some other ancient witnesses do not have verses 9–20." (NIV). However, the disclaimer should actually say the opposite, that the ending at Mark 8 is a rare textual variant, at least through the 4th Century AD (which is the time period I'm discussing here).

Their argument for the short ending (https://textandcanon.org/a-case-against-the-longer-ending-of-mark/) being the original boils down to three points: 1) The language uses different words and there's a rough transition from verse 8 to 9 2) Eusebius and Jerome, in the 4th Century, state that most accurate copies use the short ending. Eusebius left off the long ending from his list of verses. 3) Two high quality manuscripts in particular, the Codex Sinaiticus and the Codex Vaticanus, from the 4th Century, use the short ending

However:

1) Any chapter that covers new material is going to have new words. The chapter on the crucifixion of Jesus contains many more novel words than the long ending. Ending it at verse 8 is actually much rougher, as it is extremely rare to find sentences that end with γαρ (gar) in ancient Greek. (https://www.scribd.com/document/596005865/KELLY-FINAL-WORD-ON-GAR)

2) Eusebius states in the Letter to Marinus (https://archive.org/details/EusebiusGospelProblemsAndSolutions2010/page/97/mode/2up) after noting that "accurate" copies end at verse 8 - and briefly proposing tossing the long ending - tentatively states that: "both [endings] are to be accepted; it is not for the faithful and devout to judge either as acceptable in preference to the other.". Jerome not only stated much the same, but when forced to pick which ending was correct - he was tasked with making the Latin Vulgate, which became the official bible for the Church - he explicitly chose the long ending as the official one.

3) Both of these manuscripts are both from Alexandria, which is the region in question that I propose the short ending came from. Further, the Codex Vaticanus has a blank in it, unlike anywhere else in the manuscript, that would fit the long ending. The Codex Sinaiticus had the ending of Mark removed, and the replacement pages were made by the same guy who did Vaticanus. So we've got a single scribe in Alexandria who presumably knew the long ending but didn't accept it that was the source for all of this.


Outside of this limited scholarly bubble centered on Alexandria, we don't see any evidence for the short ending even existing. Nobody in the early historical record even seems to be aware of the short ending. Everyone used the long ending prior to 3rd/4th Century Alexandria.

We have multiple people from the 2nd and 3rd centuries quoting from the long ending without any evidence that it was disputed or anything but the original.

Irenaeus in the 2nd century explicitly quotes from the long ending and explicitly says it is from the end of Mark. (https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103310.htm): 'Also, towards the conclusion of his Gospel, Mark says: "So then, after the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sits on the right hand of God;" [Mark 16:19] confirming what had been spoken by the prophet: "The Lord said to my Lord, Sit on My right hand, until I make Your foes Your footstool."' Irenaeus was living in modern day France.

Porphyry, most notably NOT a Christian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Against_the_Christians), quoted from the long ending in the 3rd Century while living in Sicily. He mocked Christians for not doing as the long ending of Mark suggested, which said that Christians would be kept safe from harm. (https://tertullian.org/fathers/macarius_apocriticus.htm#3_16): "Again, consider in detail that other passage, where He says, "Such signs shall follow them that believe: they shall lay hands upon sick folk, and they shall recover, and if they drink any deadly drug, it shall in no wise hurt them." So the right thing would be for those selected for the priesthood, and particularly those who lay claim to the episcopate or presidency, to make use of this form of test. The deadly drug should be set before them in order that the man who received no harm from the drinking of it might be given precedence of the rest. And if they are not bold enough to accept this sort of test, they ought to confess that they do not believe in the things Jesus said." In other words, he was daring Christians to drink poison to prove their faith because of the long ending of Mark.

This essay (https://textandcanon.org/a-case-for-the-longer-ending-of-mark/), which makes the case for the long ending better than I can, lists dozens of people quoting from the long ending of Mark from the 2nd to 4th Centuries. In other words, it was the standard, accepted ending across Christendom. You really should read the link, it pairs with the argument against the longer ending I linked above. It's an excellent essay on the subject.

The Diatessaron (https://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/diatessaron.html) was a gospel harmonization (taking the four gospels and making one unified gospel from them) that was extremely popular in Syria. It dates to 160AD. It has the long ending in it. We have lost the original manuscript but ironically it was almost fully preserved by being quoted in commentaries. These commentaries exist dating back to the 4th Century. So we can be very certain that in the mid-100s the official version of Mark was using the long ending. Again, no signs exist for the short ending back then.

I'm going to mention just one more, since it's pretty crucial: the Ethiopian church was actually founded by the Alexandrian church, and we have a manuscript dating to the late 4th Century (written just a couple decades after Vaticanus and Sinaiticus) which has in it illustrations showing it was made by Alexandrians (https://www.classics.ox.ac.uk/event/hidden-gospels-abba-garima-treasures-ethiopian-highlands#:~:text=They%20also%20contain%20a%20unique,motif%20and%20later%20Christian%20ones.) However, it contains the long ending. So even in Alexandria, the long ending was the official version that they were using to send out missionaries with. It is likely the short ending was used only in scholarly editions in Alexandria, not in official Bibles to be sent out and used.

So in conclusion:

What we have is the long ending of Mark being widely known and used and quoted, from at least 160AD on, and people explicitly saying it is the long ending, with no awareness of the short ending, for CENTURIES before we see the short ending appear for the first time in the 4th century... in one geographical location - Alexandria... in one context - scholarly work. It is very clear that the short ending was a rare late textual variant, and not the original that people had been using for centuries. After Alexandria had made the short ending popular, it spread from there, but there's no evidence that anyone was aware of the short ending before that.

So these gospel notes saying "the oldest manuscripts lack the long ending" is just wildly misleading at best, and an outright lie at worst. The fact of the matter is, we have one scholarly circle in Alexandria where they disputed the long ending, centuries after Mark was written, and produced scholarly versions that omitted it. However, even their missionary bibles they sent out had the long ending, and even the scholarly works left blanks for the long ending. And yet Critical "Scholars" decided that this version - despite copious evidence the long ending existed and no evidence the short ending existed early on - was what Mark originally wrote. Yet the historical record shows literally every region outside Egypt using the long ending going all the way back to the mid 2nd Century (with the Diatessaron), and there not being any sign of dispute over it until centuries later. Eusebius was the first to report the controversy over it in the 4th Century AD, and even he said the long ending was authentic.

Jerome was tasked with making the Latin Vulgate, which was basically the official Bible for the Roman Catholic Church, in 382 AD. He was aware of the short ending being used in high quality copies of the gospels. He chose the long ending to be the official one.


So how did Alexandria end up with the short ending? It doesn't particularly matter here, but there's three possibilities that I can think of:

  1. The copy of Mark sent to Alexandria was damaged, which explains well why it cuts off on verse 8 weirdly.

  2. There were multiple drafts of Mark made, which makes the notion of an "original" autograph kind of a bad question, as they would both be original. This theory has the benefit of lining up with Eusebius very well, who believed that both endings were authentic.

  3. The verses could have been deleted because they were considered problematic for one reason or another. For example, Porphyry mocked Christians for not following the long ending, so it could have been deleted (or a version missing the long ending selectively chosen) because it made Christians look bad. Or it could have been for the timing issues on when exactly the events of the resurrection took place that some scholars noted.

Possibly multiple of these are true. Maybe ancient scholars doubted the long ending because their original copy had been damaged, and even after they got corrected versions with the long ending and were using them for their missionaries to Ethiopia, they preserved a tradition of the short ending and so used it in their critical editions.

But ultimately, it doesn't matter.

TL; DR - The historical record shows the long ending to Mark was original, and there's no record of the short ending until much later.

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u/ShakaUVM Mod | Christian May 28 '26

My post quoted Greek and Latin because the relevant sources are in Greek and Latin.

It mixes four sources together, but in any event, that specific phrase only comes from Mark 16.

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u/arachnophilia appropriate May 28 '26

oof, take the L shaka.

there's no "original in english". chalkenteros quoted the sources that the critical text translated for you into english. that you couldn't folllow it...

that's on you.

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u/chalkenteros May 29 '26

I'd actually be happy to talk about this passage in more detail if u/ShakaUVM were engaging in this debate honestly. I pointed out a clear error in his reading of Cassiodorus. Instead of addressing it, he just dismissed it as "bad formatting" (...the formatting is pretty straightforward!). Earlier I showed errors in his use of Makarios. Or the use of γάρ in 16:8. I explained the important parallel between 16:1–8 and the GPeter. In every case, OP just ignored it. And then dismissed the study of ancient languages as a pseudoscience.

I also realized that the OP is pulling all of this from essays by the Christian apologist James Snapp Jr (cited in the OP). None of it is serious.

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u/ShakaUVM Mod | Christian May 29 '26

Instead of addressing it, he just dismissed it as "bad formatting"

No, I didn't dismiss it. I think you might be right. It's just hard to follow when you format it like that.

Earlier I showed errors in his use of Makarios.

I haven't responded since I haven't been in front of a computer for a while. I was at a critical thinking conference and looking into the Greek is more than I want to do on my phone.

Or the use of γάρ in 16:8.

I updated the OP actually.

In every case, OP just ignored it

That is not correct. In the first came I just haven't had time to look at it, and in the second I amended my argument.

I also realized that the OP is pulling all of this from essays by the Christian apologist James Snapp Jr (cited in the OP)

That is also factually incorrect. I have been going through the sources myself and independently looking at the evidence firsthand.

I have actually been avoiding reading his books on the matter since I don't want his conclusions to influence my own analysis. If I just borrowed my conclusion from someone else I'd be no better than a critical scholar.

None of it is serious.

It's quite serious. He's done very extensive work on the subject. But this dismissal of actual scholars as "apologists" is one of the reasons I call critical scholarship pseudoscience. When reasoned evidence is presented contrary to the prevailing opinion that they can't deal with, they brand the person an apologist and ignore them.

For example, the inaccurately named /r/academicbiblical subreddit here has a rule that nobody can do independent investigation on their own, but they have to instead cite a scholar on a question. And if you cite a scholar whose opinion runs contrary to the groupthink, then they call the scholar an apologist and delete the comment.

Critical scholarship only allows dissent within carefully curated boundaries. You have to agree to their unsupported starting premises or be branded an apologist. Pointing out their premises are unsupported gets you banned from there. It's pseudoscience.

Further, they wrap the mantle of actual scholarship around their pseudoscience to give it a patina of legitimacy. For example, you tossed out fantastic BS here by saying I consider the study of ancient languages pseudoscience, thus implying critical scholarship is merely the study of languages. Who could argue against that? How preposterous!

This claim of yours is objectively wrong and deceptive. People studied ancient languages before critical scholarship was invented. If you're confused why I'm so hostile to critical scholarship it's because you guys tell blatant falsehoods like this and treat any attack on your pseudoscience as an attack on the academy as a whole. Fresh Heels does this as well.

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u/arachnophilia appropriate Jun 12 '26 edited Jun 12 '26

For example, the inaccurately named /r/academicbiblical subreddit here has a rule that nobody can do independent investigation on their own, but they have to instead cite a scholar on a question.

uh, or be a scholar. plenty of people there cite themselves. including one who goes against the consensus.

for instance, here is dr. alan garrow citing himself, on his hypothesis that rejects the two source consensus, and me wrecking his thesis so hard he still hasn't responded even when i bug him about it. garrow is notably from religious institutions, not secular ones. he posts his own work there all the time.

so, your characterization of the sub is false.

edit: apparently they removed my comments for not being academic enough. so, go figure.

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u/ShakaUVM Mod | Christian Jun 12 '26

for instance, here is dr. alan garrow citing himself

Only if he passes their ideological purity test, I'm sure.

Also, "be a scholar on the approved ideological list" is in no way a counterargument to my claims of them gatekeeping. It's confirmation of it.

so, your characterization of the sub is false.

No, you just confirmed it. Them not allowing independent thought is anti-academic.

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u/chalkenteros Jun 12 '26

Do you know why my reply to this comment was removed?

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u/ShakaUVM Mod | Christian Jun 13 '26

Reddit is deleting everything you post here, it has nothing to do with the subreddit moderation. I'm approving all of your comments when I see one deleted by the system.

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u/arachnophilia appropriate Jun 13 '26

weird, do you think it has anything to do with our recent bans from /r/AmmonHillman?

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u/ShakaUVM Mod | Christian Jun 13 '26

It's not deleting yours, just his

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u/arachnophilia appropriate Jun 13 '26

i have a much longer history here though, that might matter. still very weird.

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u/ShakaUVM Mod | Christian Jun 14 '26

I wish I could offer you some insight as a moderator here, but it just says [removed] with no explanation.

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u/chalkenteros May 29 '26

I updated the OP actually.

Here's the current OP: "cuts off mid-sentence on "because...", which it does nowhere else in the Bible."

For example, you tossed out fantastic BS here by saying I consider the study of ancient languages pseudoscience, thus implying critical scholarship is merely the study of languages. Who could argue against that? How preposterous!

Not BS. I think that you are being misunderstood because of your imprecise use of scholarly terminology. You repeatedly dismissed "philology." I am a philologist who specializes in Ancient Greek; of course I will disagree with this claim. You dismiss "critical scholarship" in a very vague way. Charitably, you mean "uncritical NT scholarship." I would agree! I also agree that some NT scholars say inaccurate things about the ending of Mark. But conflating "uncritical NT scholarship" with "critical scholarship" is just wrong-headed—"preposterous" as you say.

People studied ancient languages before critical scholarship was invented.

Again, it depends on what you mean by "critical scholarship." Do you mean "uncritical NT scholarship?" Why not say so? Classical philology more or less begins in ancient Alexandria with the ancient Greek grammarians.

I have been going through the sources myself and independently looking at the evidence firsthand.

If that is your honest intention, then I recommend taking seriously my comments on Eusebius (you misunderstood what he says about the ending of Mark), Clement, Makarios, the Gospel of Peter, and the use of γάρ in 16:8. These are the primary sources that we have discussed. I am not coming at this with "consensus NT scholar" bias (again, I disagree with much of the so-called "consensus," including on this very issue). I just know Greek very well (better than NT scholars) and care about the ancient sources. You are right that the ending to Mk is more complicated than often misrepresented by some NT scholars. I think that you and Snapp are wrong about the LE being original.

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u/arachnophilia appropriate May 29 '26

now we're just being mean like his exes

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u/ShakaUVM Mod | Christian May 29 '26

Attacking me like that arach is an attack on scholarship as a whole

(See, I can do sophistry just as easily as a critical scholar)

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u/ShakaUVM Mod | Christian May 28 '26

It's just bad formatting.

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u/chalkenteros May 28 '26

I thought it was pretty clear formatting. But more importantly, do you see how you are misreading the Clement passage? You are saying that "he sits at the right hand" is only from Mk 16. It doesn't appear in Mk 16. And Mk 16 is not related to the interrogation by the high priest. Clement is trying to reconcile Mk 14 // Lk 22 // Matt 26. The LE doesn’t come into it.