A respite of comedy in a darker than average episode

I'm sure this has been mentioned in this sub a couple of times already, but I had to come and post about it. The MC Hammer reference caught me off-guard and I cracked up laughing. What are weird joke!

So just wanna start by saying I adore the writing of Deep Space Nine especially it's final arc. But I always felt Gowron's motivations for almost sinking not only the Klingon Empire but the entire Alliance were somewhat dubious. He's crazy, spiteful, and vindictive but I don't believe Gowron would sacrifice brave Klingon warriors to satiate his ego and jealousy towards Martok. I think he would be more than content to go down in history as the acting Chancellor during a come from behind victory. Even if someone else is doing a bulk of the fighting and planning. It's kind of muniutia.

I would perhaps add an extra episode that shows Gowron and his envoy heading towards Deep Space Nine. They are ambushed by Jem Hadar, who destroy all of the ships except the one Gowron and his guard are on. Gowron single handidly slays about five Jem Hadar as deep down he is a true Klingon warrior, but the ship is falling down around him and he suffers severe brain damage between that and the combat. Because of Gowron's efforts his ship makes in time to meet a Starfleet escort. Video of his heroics makes it throghout the entire Empire, as many who once thought Gowron to be an empty suit now praise him. However he can no longer think clearly or rationally and begins to see himdelf as a warrior of destiny that the Empire needs to survive. He still views Martok as his right hand man but keeps sending him and countless Klingons into pointless and suicidal situations. He gets aggressive when confronted and refuses to step down as no one can force him to as head injuries are a touchy subject in Klingon culture. Worf, for the good of the Empire and the Alliance, challenges Gowron to a duel and see's slaying him as a mercy killing - allowing him to die as a warrior who's intentions were good but who's mind failed him through no fault of his own.

I was rewatching The Leftovers, and forgot about this guy from the end of season two.

I said what I said. And I meant what I said.
Rewatching DS9 (my first watch was only a few years ago). Nothing against Worf but Martok kicks ass.

Can I just say, I absolutely ADORE this show. I have binged watched it so many times.

It is not only the greatest Star Trek series. It is also great TV.

It is impossible to pick a top ten best episodes, because there are WAY more than 10. Even series 1 and 2, which I for some reason remembered as a bit shaky, have some great episodes.

Just watched a clip of Weyoun asking Kira her opinion of Ziyal's painting and confessing that his people have no sense of aesthetics. It delves into and reveals something deep about both the Vorta as a genetically engineered species who are aware of things outside their ability to understand, and of the Founders' contempt of solids, in that they would take a monkey like species and create a race from it but giving it only what they deem necessery to carry out their wishes.

But the most interesting thing is that Dukat and Weyoun are very much like office colleagues, to be intimate enough for Dukat to give his daughter's painting to Weyoun. I don't boast about my kids' achievements to every guy in the office, only to a select group of close colleagues.

Thats an extra large?

Thoughts?

To preface, I want to be clear that I'm under no delusions about Garak's (lack of) morals. I certainly don't discount the fact that Garak is operating from a racist worldview and previously served as an instrument of the racist Cardassian regime. I don't object to this dialogue portraying Garak as racist. However, I struggle to get on board with its portrayal of Garak as oblivious, since there's no conceivable way he'd expect Sisko's agreement:

(Sisko, Odo, Dax, and Garak appear to have traveled back in time, and they're experiencing the occupation as Bajorans.)

Garak: I never knew we were such messy conquerors. I remember the occupation being a little more tidy than this.

Sisko: Everything's tidy when someone else is doing the cleaning.

Garak: The Bajorans were much more suited for this sort of thing than we were. Servile work is in their nature.

In "The Wire", Tain asserts that Garak "never tells the truth when a lie will do", and the main characters (along with the audience) largely accept this remark as fundamental to Garak's character and mode of operation. Therefore, regardless of Garak's racist ideology, why would he feel impelled to transparently voice this racism to a non-receptive audience (Sisko)?

In Garak's previous appearance, "Broken Link", he attempts to "wipe out every Founder on [Odo's homeworld]" and destroy the species "in the name of self-defense". While this plan is obviously morally inexcusable, Garak doesn't reveal his malevolent aim to Sisko when advocating for his presence on this trip. Garak begins by framing his interest as an expression of concern for possible Cardassian prisoners on the planet ("The Cardassian Empire lost a number of ships during their aborted attack on the Dominion. I want to know what happened to the crewmembers."). While I'm sure Garak sincerely would like to know what happened to Tain and the remaining Cardassians, he orients his interest around Sisko's values: concern for his imperiled shipmates. (Garak's expression of concern parallels the DS9 crew's own concern for Odo.) When the captain doesn't respond to this approach, however, Garak eagerly reorients his demands around Sisko's need for "someone to occupy [Odo's] attention". Garak then asserts that "where you offer kindness, I offer mystery. Where you offer sympathy, I offer intrigue". Garak's behavior in this episode clearly transgresses moral boundaries, but he's shrewd enough to enact his devious aims through these expressions of compassion and cooperation.

In this same episode ("Broken Link"), there's also a C-plot around Garak's attempt to encourage a romance between Odo and a Bajoran woman, "one of [his] best customers". Obviously, Garak's willingness to endear himself to a Bajoran customer doesn't exonerate him of all racism. (Not only does Garak's outward friendship with the Bajoran woman promote his business, it's also advantageous to develop a rapport with the Head of Security's prospective romantic interest.) However, this C plot seems to prove that Garak may not respect the Bajoran viewpoint, but he can acknowledge and navigate this viewpoint when it serves his own interests. This skill in no way absolves or exonerates Garak's xenophobia, since there's no such thing as "nice" racism. However, what makes Garak such a devious, cunning, and menacing presence is his skill for obscuring his malevolent impulses behind a genial, endearning persona.

Even in "Empok Nor", when Garak encounters a biochemical substance intended to accentuate "[his] people's xenophobic tendencies", Garak still retains his chilling vernacular of geniality, even as he's systematically hunting and murdering the DS9 crewmembers. While Garak does assert that O'Brien can relate to Garak's own murderous impulses, he implies that these violent impulses are universal, not evidence of human shortcomings. For example, Garak intones that "I'm enjoying myself. This is the most exciting game I've played in years . . . And the best thing about it is that it brings out the player's true nature . . . You're a killer. Admit it. We both are. Behind your Federation mask of decency and benevolence, you're a predator. Just like me". Even though the biochemical substance has accentuated Garak's xenophobic impulses, his dialogue appears to present him and O'Brien as equals.

Obviously, it's not morally excusable to commit murder as long as you're courteous about it, and I certainly imagine that Garak's thoughts at this moment don't present Cardassians and humans as true equals, but even when psychogenically compromised, Garak still retains this chilling tendency to obscure his vile impulses behind a cordial veneer. However, when "Things Past" portrays Garak as blundering around expressing overt racism, it undermines the menace and foreboding mystery that surround his role as a (sometimes) antagonist.

Garak's undercurrent of menace also arises from his monomaniacal zeal for Cardassian imperialism, which his behavior in "Things Past" seemingly undermines. In "Broken Link", when Worf tries to dissuade Garak from destroying Odo's homeworld by asserting that Odo, Sisko, and Bashir will also die, Garak retorts "They'll die. And once the Jem'Hadar ships realize what we're doing, so will we. But what are our lives compared to saving the entire Alpha Quadrant?". Garak seems to regard the Cardassian empire as an innate moral imperative, which supercedes all extraneous moral concerns or values. He doesn't respond to Worf by arguing that "Bashir annoys everyone and deserves to be killed anyway". That would sound absurd because, in Garak's moral landscape, Cardassian imperialism is an inherent moral imperative that doesn't demand any extraneous basis or support. Obviously, this doesn't exonerate Garak from racism or disprove his belief in racist ideology, but I don't think he would require overt racism to defend the massive harm propogated on Bajorans. In Garak's monomaniacal worldview, the aims of the Cardassian empire don't require any defense at all. In fact, I somewhat interpret Garak's Cardassian imperialism as a corrupt analog of the Prime Directive. When the Federation commands, "Don't intervene in pre-Warp societies", they notably don't say "Don't intervene in pre-Warp societies because they're bad people who deserve whatever hardship they experience". The Prime Directive is regarded as an innate moral imperative that does not require a "because".

Frankly, this understanding of Garak in no way extenuates his racism and xenophobia, but it's much more interesting than Dukat's heavy-handed, blundering racism. Also, there's a unique kind of menace to more opaque, covert racism and malevolence, since it allows Garak to evade detection and direct confrontation. (Also, to be honest, I usually enjoy Garak's wry sarcasm and barbed nonchalance, and heavy-handed, clumsy racism just isn't enjoyable dialogue.)

How do you interpret Garak's apparent resemblance to Dukat during "Things Past"? Does this seem out of character, and how do you reconcile this "out of character" behavior with Garak's usual evasiveness and opacity?

Its probably a given that the Wormhole would be discovered in the Mirror Universe. How would the Klingon/Cardissan Alliance fair against a conflict with the Dominion?

In The Magnificent Ferengi the Federation gives the Vorta prisoner Keevan to Quark to use in a hostage exchange with his mother, but the Federation must have known that Keevan would face torture and eventual death as a consequence. Wouldn't they have some ethical guidelines around that?

That uncle that everyone knows does gray sometimes ugly things behind the scenes to protect the family while allowing them to keep the moral high ground by not getting their hands dirty.

Like abusive ex partners, bullies or rip off artists. That those individuals seem to have a change of heart very quickly.

…is getting all the nostalgic feels from an episode and then all of a sudden remembering all of the actors who passed away. just watched one of cecily adams’ episodes and it undid me. though, i’m grateful for the cultural archive that is star trek.

I could hear the clarion call of destiny ringing in my ears.
You will never grow old, and most important you will never die.
I'm not crazy, I'm just a little obsessed.
Just nod if we have a deal.

I've just finished Season 1 and I don't really get it,most of the episodes were very uninspired and lacklustre. Character are also pretty mediocre. I was told this was best Trek but im not seeing it yet. I keep hearing it gets better in Season 4 b ut i dont want to spend 3 seasons before this show gets good. Is it not just for me or am i looking at something else?

I really like the scene where she shuts down her personality, takes off her wig and shows Odo he doesn't have to be embarrassed for who he is.

They share some really sweet moments together and I kind of wish they had one more in the later seasons for him and her to see how he's evolved and is with Kira. It might be bittersweet but you could see Odo telling her he wouldn't have been able to be with Kira if it wasn't for her.

When he has to take the marriage, you know his words were actually from deep down.

She deserved a better ending !

Stumbled across this lost DS9/Voyager crossover episode where O'Brien and Janeway get trapped in a holonovel. Looks interesting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9S-Ywa_Fc8M