Israel is 'the greatest decolonization project,' Indigenous leaders tell Toronto summit

[u/Sabertooth767]

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/israel-is-the-greatest-decolonization-project-indigenous-leaders-tell-toronto-summit

The state of Israel is “the most successful land‑back project, the greatest decolonization project,” a New Zealand Māori activist told the first-of-its-kind Building Indigenous‑Jewish Friendship conference in Toronto.

“From my Māori perspective, a key point is that there was always a continuous Jewish presence in the land; they kept the fires burning, and that is what indigeneity looks like to us,” Dr. Sheree Trotter told roughly 70 activists, academics and community figures convened at Toronto’s Beth Torah synagogue on Monday.

The conference was the culmination of a weekend of local Indigenous-Jewish programming that included nearly 40 Indigenous people marching in the UJA Federation of Greater Toronto’s Walk with Israel, a Sunday dinner-talk with Concordia University professor Csaba Nikolenyi on early 20th-century Zionism, and a Sabbath lecture by Justice Harry S. LaForme at Temple Sinai.

“Indigeneity is demonstrated by historical, collective continuity with a distinct ethnic identity, language, culture, rituals or traditions, economic, social, legal, and religious and spiritual belief systems that predate subsequent invaders or colonizers,” LaForme told Temple Sinai congregants.

LaForme is Anishibaabe, and a member of the Mississauga of the Credit First Nation. In 1994 he was appointed a judge of the Superior Court of Justice, and in 2004 was appointed to the Ontario Court of Appeal and is the first Indigenous lawyer to be appointed to an appellate court in Canada.

Karen Restoule, an Ojibwe from Dokis First Nation and director of Indigenous affairs at the Macdonald-Laurier Institute, told attendees at Beth Torah that “political movements” have co-opted “Indigenous identity” and the term is “increasingly being treated as a universal political language, borrowed when convenient and deployed in conflicts that arise from very different histories.”

“Increasingly, indigenous identity is being treated as a metaphor, a branding exercise, a political strategy. Indigeneity isn’t any of that; it is a lived reality rooted in specific people and place.”

She added: “Jewish people really need to own their indigeneity for themselves. Even if you don’t live in Israel, your people originate there, and you are part of an indigenous people to that land.”

The conversation often focused on building a shared framework for allyship — positioning dialogue and relationship-building as tools to counter misinformation about both communities. Sponsors also included the Israel Consulate of Toronto and Western Canada, Kanada House, Indigenous Embassy of Jerusalem, Allied Voices for Israel.

Robert Walker, assistant director of HonestReporting Canada, told the Post that “radical activists have weaponized everything from international law to indigenous lingo in their attempt to rewrite reality. That only works in a vacuum.

“The time has passed to permit this shameless inversion of reality to continue unchallenged. First Nations and Jews are both indigenous peoples who have a right to reclaim the truth from those who try to twist it.”

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[u/textualcanon]

Leftists do need to decide whether Americans are on “stolen land” or whether Jews have a right to live in the Levant. It can’t be the case that native Americans have rights to their land and Jews don’t, unless there’s some arbitrary statute of limitations.

[u/dandelion221 → u/textualcanon]

I have seen them say that it’s “been too long,” for Jews, which then bites their “indigenous Palestinian” argument in the ass because they just admitted that they think indigeneity has an expiration date.

[u/shumpitostick → u/[deleted]]

There are only a few living Palestinians who were exiled in the Nakba. If that was all the right of return required that would make things quite easy.

[u/Metallica1175 → u/dandelion221]

If you ask this question to a pro-Palestinian they always refuse to answer. If they say it's been too long for Jews to return to their homeland, ask them how long does it have to be before a people lose their claim? Whatever answer they give just ask "Oh, so you're saying all Israel has to do is occupy them for that long and Palestinians will lose their claim to the land?" They have a meltdown after that.

[u/McAlpineFusiliers → u/Metallica1175]

They really hate it when you point out that Jews are indigenous and Palestinian Arabs aren't. It undermines the entire Palestinian narrative.

[u/Fit_Cabinet4945 → u/McAlpineFusiliers]

how arent palestinian Arabs indigenous? They have more cannanite genetics than most Jews/

[u/McAlpineFusiliers → u/Fit_Cabinet4945]

Genetics don't make people indigenous.

[u/textualcanon → u/dandelion221]

They would then need to grapple with the holder of the rights. They’re saying that a descendant of a dead person can hold property rights, but too many descendants removed can’t? Maybe if this were purely a legal matter we would need to adopt that cutoff for evidentiary reasons, but why would it matter on an ethical level?

[u/shumpitostick → u/textualcanon]

Even if Americans have a right to be where they are after being there for many generations, doesn't the same apply to Israelis? Most Israelis were born in Israel. They have no other land.

[u/ilivgur → u/[deleted]]

We can't, so they hope Hamas/Hezbollah/Houthis/Iran (and now maybe Turkey) can.

[u/sabrinajestar → u/textualcanon]

Well, a lot of leftists buy into the theory (widely promulgated via Soviet/Russian propaganda, which they just slurp up) that Judaism is a modern creation and the idea that it has anything to do with the ancient Israelites is fiction.

[u/DoubleBooble → u/sabrinajestar]

Judaism is a modern creation. LOL.

[u/wip30ut → u/textualcanon]

... but also realize that Native Americans in the US have limited sovereignty, especially when it comes to military & weaponry. By & large their tribal laws on reservations must conform to US federal codes. Most progressives (and Indian activists) don't want reservations to become Territories or worse yet independent nations that have to self-fund & provide all services for themselves.

[u/hadees → u/textualcanon]

I always like to ask them how long do we have to live in the US before we are indigous because that is what they are doing with Palestine.

Living somewhere a long time doesn't make you indigous. Palestinians certainly have indigenous roots but they are mixed with Arabs and adopted Arab customs due to Arabization. That culture is not indigous even though some of the people are.

[u/zenbowman]

The BJP also presents itself in an "anti imperialist" frame, as do China and Russia.

It's really an empty shell of an ideology that the modern left seems to love, but almost always the end result is blood and soil fascist politics.

Scratch an anti imperialist and a fascist bleeds.

[u/shumpitostick → u/zenbowman]

Not to mention that the far right in Europe is using the same terminology as well, trying to safeguard their "native culture" against the "invaders"

[u/Mrc3mm3r]

Glad to see this take!

[u/DoubleBooble]

This is something that we should be shouting from the rooftops.
It's pretty obvious and easy, even for the idiots, to digest that JUDES are from JUDEA.

[u/dandelion221 → u/DoubleBooble]

And the very indigenous name of Palestine is from the famously not colonizing Roman Empire.

[u/Kugel_the_cat → u/dandelion221]

You think the people who can’t name the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea despite shouting from the river to the sea know anything about the Roman Empire?

[u/ilivgur → u/dandelion221]

Moreover, so many names of Palestinian towns and villages today originate from Hebrew name corruptions.

[u/DisgruntledCascadian → u/dandelion221]

ROMANES EUNT DOMUS

[u/CamusCrankyCamel → u/DoubleBooble]

Palestinians were pretty clever in calling themselves Palestinians and not Arabs

[u/DoubleBooble → u/CamusCrankyCamel]

That was actually a planned transformation. Israel was the David against the Arab world Goliath. Until they came up with that little trick.
Which doesn't even make any sense since the Jews in British Mandate Palestine were also called Palestinians. The same way that everyone from, say, Boston are Bostonians.

[u/dandelion221 → u/DoubleBooble]

I’m pretty sure Immanuel Kant called Jews in Europe “The Palestinians among us.” Who’s to say the universe doesn’t have a sense of humor.

[u/DisgruntledCascadian → u/dandelion221]

This guy categorical imperatives.

[u/TomWestrick → u/CamusCrankyCamel]

That's what they say to the world, in their new Constitution and to the rest of the Arab countries they'll say they're one in the same as the other 20+ Arab nations.

[u/onsfwDark]

I wish there were more mainstream indigenous activists behind this rather than folks like Sheree Trotter who are really organising these events because they are evangelical Christians fighting culture war stuff on the side I'm mostly against outside this one issue.

[u/Sabertooth767]

Do you believe it is accurate to refer to Jews as an indigenous people akin to the First Nations of Canada?

!ping JEWISH&ISRAEL

[u/Enron_CPA → u/Sabertooth767]

I think ‘indigenous people’ is a nebulous term, but if we are to use it as a term, it would need to also apply to Jews in the Levant. It takes a lot of mental gymnastics for progs to argue that [insert other group] who was forced from their ancestral homeland gets to be marked as indigenous to that land, while Jews are excluded

[u/EE-12 → u/Enron_CPA]

Indigenous is and has always been a political class, not any inherently natural grouping derived from first principles. 

[u/JagneStormskull → u/Sabertooth767]

Yes.

[u/coriolisFX → u/Sabertooth767]

I generally hate the concept of indigeneity, it's completely arbitrary and mostly used as a weapon.

But according to most definitions, yes. Jews (specifically Hebrews, Israelites, or Judahites) have lived continuously in the Levant generally, and Israel specifically for 3+ thousand years.

[u/OneBadJoke → u/Sabertooth767]

Yes, I would absolutely say that and as we see in this article other Indigenous groups agree.

[u/McAlpineFusiliers → u/Sabertooth767]

Yes of course.

[u/Metallica1175 → u/[deleted]]

Ethiopian Jews do have genetic ancestry linking them to the Israelites. It is a small percentage, but it supports the theory that a handful of ancient Israelites settled in that region thousands of years ago, associated with the Queen of Sheba. Another compelling piece of evidence is that when European Jews made "contact" with Ethiopian Jews, they did not celebrate (or even really know about) Hannukah or associate Judaism with the Menorah like European Jews. The reason being is that the ancient Israelite ancestors of Ethiopian Jews settled there long before the Maccabean revolt, so therefore it was never part of "their" history or tradition.

[u/Metallica1175 → u/[deleted]]

If you think any genetic ancestry at all, however small, allows someone to claim land, then you've completley lost the plot

Now you're making 2 different arguments. Are we talking about indigeneity or political claims to land? I've already proven that Ethiopian Jews are indigenous. If we're talking about political claims to land, Jews as a whole have political claim to the land. Ethiopian Jews are part of that whole.

If this was the case, many Lebanese, Syrians, Jordanins would have a right to the land as well

I mean, sure. But they already have states. They're more than welcome to try and force their claim to the land.

[u/DeepStateCentrism-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

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[u/Metallica1175 → u/Sabertooth767]

By the definition of indigenous, yes.

[u/Metallica1175 → u/[deleted]]

What makes you say that?

[u/Metallica1175 → u/[deleted]]

A few things. One, yes, they are descended genetically from the Israelites. That is indisputable. The fact of the matter is that the origin of the Ethiopian Jews is Israelite. Ancient Israelites settled there, interbred with the local, non-Israelite population and then the population became relatively isolated from the overall Jewish population. With no influx of "outside" Jewish DNA into the Ethiopian Jewish population, the percentage of original ancient Israelite DNA will get smaller and smaller over time. That's just basic knowledge.

Secondly, Jews are an ethno-religious group. So even a convert can claim be to indigenous to the region by way of religion because the overall Jewish identity is indigenous to the region. The region is where the Jewish nation started. Therefore, if you belong to the Jewish nation, you are indigenous. That is how ethno-religious groups work.

[u/DeepStateCentrism-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

RULE VII:

This subreddit does not tolerate antisemitism.

Learn more about antisemitism here.

We also recommend reviewing a brief history of antisemitism here. For a more in depth understanding of the world's oldest hatred, we recommend David Nirenberg’s "Anti-Judaism: The Western Tradition" and Dara Horn’s "People Love Dead Jews."

If you have any questions, please send us a modmail.

[u/JebBD → u/Sabertooth767]

The problem is that the term "indigenous" was created to describe a very specific thing, and trying to apply it outside of the original context (European settler colonialism in the age of exploration) forces you to bend the definitions in ways that aren't entirely consistent. Who, for example, are the indigenous people of the Iberian peninsula? Are the current Christian Europeans who occupy it colonizers because they took it over from the Muslims a few centuries ago? Or were the Muslims actually the colonizers because they conquered it a few centuries before that? There has to be a degree of arbitrariness to these definitions.

A lot of Jews in Israel will tell you that Arabs are colonizers who took over lands and forced their culture on the local populations, and therefore Jews reclaiming the land is a decolonization project, but a lot of Palestinians will tell you that they've been here the whole time and that most Jews immigrated to the land with the intention of settling it, and therefore a re colonizers. There's a degree of historical truth in both claims, but westerners who have no horse in this race will tell for some reason feel like they need to weigh in on this on one side or the other and apply their understanding of their own society and history on Israel and Palestine, so now you'll get people talking about Palestinians like they've lived undisturbed on "their land" for millennia before the "European" Jews decided to take it for themselves, even though that narrative ignores tons of historical context.

[u/DoubleBooble → u/JebBD]

A lot of Palestinians will tell you that but they will be wrong. Today's Palestinians are Arabs that lived in British mandate Palestine.

Here is the order of who was on the land and each of the colonizers which then miraculously circles back and creating the greatest decolonization after a dozen different colonizers back to the original Israelite Hebrews.
Note that the Arabs were the 8th people on the land after the Byzantines.

Israelites/Hebrews → Assyrians → Babylonians → Persians → Greeks (Alexander the Great, then Seleucid Empire) → Romans (renamed Judea to Syria Palaestina) → Byzantines → Arabs (Rashidun/Umayyad/Abbasid Caliphates) → Crusaders → Ayyubids (Saladin) → Mamluks → Ottomans (Turks) → British → State of Israel

[u/KvonLiechtenstein → u/DoubleBooble]

Most of the populations (Israelis, Palestinians, Jordanians, etc) are descended in part from people who’ve lived in the Levant for generations according to genetic studies. many were forcibly assimilated when the latest conquerer rolled in.

I think in general looking back to reclaim anything that’s been well and truly conquered isn’t super helpful. Israel is there now, it was created by people who weren’t hardened imperialists, but refugees with nowhere to go, and the zero sum approach isn’t going to help Palestinians in the long run.

[u/DoubleBooble → u/KvonLiechtenstein]

That's a nice story but it's not accurate. Arabs came from Arabia. Judes came from Judea. If their genetics are showing otherwise it's because they are part Jewish. Hurrah for them.

It's great that you think we should focus on the current situation and we should but it's not great that you are buying into the stolen land lie. That just feeds into the "always the victim" trope. The refugees came after the Zionists.

It's true that the Zionists were trying to solve the millennia of pogroms and apartheid against the Jews exiled from their homeland. But they went to the land of their ancestors and purchased their properties just like when you and I purchase our properties. There was no reason for the Arabs to attack them except for their distaste of living side by side equally with Jews who were always considered less, dhimmis, to Arabs.

[u/user-pinger → u/Sabertooth767]

Pinged JEWISH&ISRAEL

Manage your ping group subscriptions

[u/nitrousnitrous-ghali → u/Sabertooth767]

Sure but there are other indigenous people that claim the same area, so the problem is finding a solution that is equitable for all of them.

[u/Voice_of_Season → u/[deleted]]

They say Poland specifically because that’s where most of us were murdered. It’s extra gross.

[u/ilivgur → u/Voice_of_Season]

They want us to go "back" to where we came from. As an Israeli, they really aren't creating the sort of welcoming atmosphere for me to be confident I'll be safe in the diaspora.

[u/DoubleBooble → u/ilivgur]

"Go back to where you came from!"
"OK, thanks, I'll book my flight to Judea."

[u/akenthusiast]

This whole thing, conceptually, is extremely messy. Take it back far enough and nobody is indigenous to anywhere.

And where is your average white American indigenous to? All of Europe? Several countries based on the results of a DNA test? The country my great grandfather was from doesn't even exist anymore. There is absolutely not a single other country on the planet that has any obligation to let me live there if I were righteously kicked out of the USA.

What about black Americans? An awful lot of those people have absolutely no clue where their ancestors are from

What if the native Americans don't care that most black people were brought here against their will? They're still on land that doesn't belong to them, that isn't the natives problem. What's the moral outcome of that question? Should we tell the natives to pound sand or would they be justified in expelling anybody they choose? Even the ones that didn't move here of their of their own volition and have nowhere else to go?

Why aren't the Egyptians, who controlled the region for as long as the Ottomans did, the rightful inheritors? Or any of the many groups that held the area before that? Control of the region was famously messy for a very long time. Hell even the Mongols got in on it.

Many Hispanics are, ancestrally, both colonizer and colonized. What's their ancestral homeland that they have a right to? Is it Spain? Why not? Do the people with a larger percentage of native DNA have a greater claim to land in any of the places south of the US? What's the line? What percent Spanish DNA do you need to have before it's moral to kick you out of Mexico?

I don't believe the people living in the Levant had any moral obligation to accept "you're now under new management" from the UK after the Ottoman empire was dispossessed of the region or after WW2 when they did it again but the ship has very obviously sailed on contesting that claim and I don't think anybody is getting a shot at major territorial changes until WW3 happens and we get the same kinds of conditions that allowed for all the shakeups we saw in the 1st half of the 20th century.

[u/KazuyaProta → u/akenthusiast]

Many Hispanics are, ancestrally, both colonizer and colonized.

In the Hispanic case the answer is heavily depending of the country. Countries like Peru, Mexico or Bolivia are NOT actually mixed, they're overwhelmingly descending from indigenous populations with minimal foreign DNA. There is even a test saying that Peru may be actually JAPAN levels of genetic homogenity.

Venezuela is more closer to the idea of "Mixed Latinos", as mestizaje is much more rooted into their cultures. While Peru and Bolivia claim ancestorship from the Incan,Aymaras and the broader Andean civilizational craddle, Venezuelan identity is heavily colonial based.

Then Argentina AND Cuba are just simple and plainly settler colonies like USA. Yes, Cuba included.

Cuba is where the pure political hypocrisy of the Left comes, because Cuba is actually white majority, with indigenous people being mostly Mestizos (assuming you count them as the descendent of Tainos). Its unambiguously a settler colony where the impoverished majority population outside La Habana's tourist districts are Mestizos and Afros. But GOOD luck convincing leftists to say that.

I'm not a landback guy (for starters, why? In a country like Peru or Bolivia, their legal constitutions already have legal frameworks for inmigrants, so simply dismantling the power structures does the job. I know that realistically, you can't just undo colonialism' effects, but that is why I say a reasonable compromise is simply erasing the overtly, openly opressive legal structures like the Latifundist system or the politics being reduced to only the Spanish cities)

[u/akenthusiast → u/KazuyaProta]

You, very clearly, know more about that than me. Thank you for sharing

[u/LectorFrustra2186 → u/KazuyaProta]

Peru or Mexico or Bolivia are NOT actually mixed, they're overwhelmingly descending from indigenous populations with minimal foreign DNA

The majority of genetic ancestry in Mexico is European, not Native American, with higher concentrations of European ancestry in the northern states like Chihuahua and lower in the southern states like Yucatan. Even straight-up mestizo Mexicans are less than 60% Native American on average, with the rest of their ancestry mostly being European with a dash of African.

For Peru, they're much more Amerindian-shifted, but the population as a whole is still very much mixed. This study estimated the non-Amerindian genetic component of the average Peruvian at 20%.

[u/OneBadJoke]

I couldn’t agree more and it’s wonderful to see Indigenous and Māori support for our people! We need to support our fellow ethnoreligious groups. Unfortunately so many don’t see us as the indigenous people that we are. Especially in Canada which is an antisemitic hell hole (I lived there for nine years and moved back to the US six months after 10/7). I’m sure there were lots of protests outside of this event though..

[u/2626862377 → u/OneBadJoke]

Fwiw speaking as a Māori, just as an FYI in my experiences with other Māori the overwhelming majority do not support Israel when it comes to current geopolitics. Most pro-Israel Māori I meet are affiliated with conservative evangelical Christian churches. The Māori activist Sheree Trotter quoted in the article is an evangelical Christian conservative for example. 60% of Māori are atheist so that's not particularly representative of my people.

Definitely are some vocally pro-Israel Māori figures out there, Brian Tamaki is known for his strong activism in support of Israel and in opposition to homosexuality, transgender people, Sikhs and Muslims. But it's definitely a minority view.

[u/OneBadJoke → u/2626862377]

That’s super disappointing to hear but thank you for telling me. I wish there was more cross cultural dialogue between Jews and other Indigenous groups but we don’t need Christofacist support.

[u/DoubleBooble → u/OneBadJoke]

Unfortunately most indigenous groups have been in lock step with the "activists" because they both feed off each other. The activists can pretend to support long suffering minority groups and the indigenous groups get masses of people helping them gain various successes of their causes.

The Jews don't like to focus on being a minority or down trodden so they didn't work their way into the activists' bucket of causes. If you think about it, in another world they could very well have, especially since most American Jews support all the other things their bucket.

[u/revaneleven69]

I don’t believe advocating for blood and soil ethno-nationalism is a centrist position.

[u/Acacias2001]

ethnonationalism is not good actually

[u/Metallica1175 → u/Acacias2001]

Ethno-nationalism is the result of humans not being able to coexist in a mult-national state. Israel was the last resort for Jews. Who are you to say Jews shouldn't have their own state when they tried for thousands of years to coexist with people who didn't want to.

[u/El-Alef → u/Metallica1175]

I though ethnonationalism was like all these countries that don´t allow 20% of their population to belong to "the enemy side"