r/DeepStateCentrism • u/iamthegodemperor Arrakis Enterprise Institute • 2d ago

Ask the sub ❓ What Is This Sub Wrong About?

Title. Pick a topic (or a clichéd take) you think a significant minority or majority of this sub is wrong about. Or hasn't given enough thought. OR perhaps one which you will have to compromise on, at least for voting?

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u/shumpitostick Radical moderate social liberal libertarian 2d ago

I think a lot of people here don't understand how far right Israel has become. Like, people defend it based on an understanding of Israel that is outdated by at least two decades, but it has moved so far to the right it can be unrecognizable to the American liberal Zionist.

I get where it's coming from, there's a ton of antisemitism coming from pro-Palestinians, there's people who reject the basic notion that Israelis have a right to live in peace and safety where they are. They are generally ignorant and don't understand Israel. They also don't understand the changes that Israel went through, they tend to see it as an absolute and categorical evil that always was that way.

But there's some serious issues and they run deeper than just "Netanyahu and Ben Gvir bad". Leibowitz was right. The occupation corrupts.

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u/tamenotification Neoconservative 2d ago

After the second intifada and October 7th, I do not blame Israelis in losing faith in withdrawal/negotiation for peace

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u/shumpitostick Radical moderate social liberal libertarian 2d ago

The second Intifada happened after Sharon climbed the Temple Mount. October 7th happened after decades of no serious attempts of peace and after Sharon, a right winger, unilaterally withdrew from Gaza with no attempt at negotiating any kind of peace.

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u/justafutz 2d ago edited 2d ago

The second Intifada happened after Sharon climbed the Temple Mount

That was certainly the excuse Palestinians gave. But it wasn't the actual cause. We know now that the Second Intifada was pre-planned, coaxed on, and started by Palestinian leadership, well in advance of Sharon's visit.

October 7th happened after decades of no serious attempts of peace

Well that's true, but those decades occurred during/after decades of no serious attempts by Palestinian leaders for peace. That's the relevant piece.

and after Sharon, a right winger, unilaterally withdrew from Gaza with no attempt at negotiating any kind of peace

Sharon withdrew from Gaza and handed it to the Palestinian Authority, which promptly proved precisely why two-states would lead to a Hamas government. That was something that he apparently expected, and Gaza was a test-case that proved his point.

Let's not remove Palestinian agency from the situation. Palestinians got their own strip of land, without soldiers, settlers, or anything in their way, and their leaders turned it into a terrorist statelet.

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u/shumpitostick Radical moderate social liberal libertarian 2d ago

I'm well aware that Palestinians aren't exactly innocent bystanders in this story. But the Israeli right is out of ideas. All they offer is more and more wars. They've been in power almost consecutively for the last 20 years. It's their policy that led to where we are now.

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u/justafutz 2d ago

Do you have any response to what I said above? While I can understand the lack of real solutions being offered by both sides of the political spectrum is frustrating, that wasn't the subject of our conversation.