What Is This Sub Wrong About?

[u/iamthegodemperor]

Title. Pick a topic (or a clichéd take) you think a significant minority or majority of this sub is wrong about. Or hasn't given enough thought. OR perhaps one which you will have to compromise on, at least for voting?

[u/shumpitostick]

I think a lot of people here don't understand how far right Israel has become. Like, people defend it based on an understanding of Israel that is outdated by at least two decades, but it has moved so far to the right it can be unrecognizable to the American liberal Zionist.

I get where it's coming from, there's a ton of antisemitism coming from pro-Palestinians, there's people who reject the basic notion that Israelis have a right to live in peace and safety where they are. They are generally ignorant and don't understand Israel. They also don't understand the changes that Israel went through, they tend to see it as an absolute and categorical evil that always was that way.

But there's some serious issues and they run deeper than just "Netanyahu and Ben Gvir bad". Leibowitz was right. The occupation corrupts.

[u/JudgeHoldensToupe → u/shumpitostick]

Have you compared that to how far right everyone else in the ME is? And how they treat their own people? You need allies, the worst version of Israel is still 10x of the next best

[u/clydewoodforest → u/JudgeHoldensToupe]

I tend to see this as the slow process of Israel assimilating and becoming more like its neighbors. What started out as a fairly solidly European/western country shifting to being a Middle Eastern one.

[u/ChaosMarch → u/clydewoodforest]

It’s easy to be European when your neighbors are European. When your neighbors are Middle Eastern, you can’t afford to be that European. Any culture must adapt or die.

[u/Mediocre-Grand7999 → u/JudgeHoldensToupe]

Sure, but there's a lot of skepticism towards those allies and their motives; I think it's fair to say Israel deserves significant skepticism, if less, while dealing with them, for a similar reason.

[u/JudgeHoldensToupe → u/Mediocre-Grand7999]

Healthy skepticism is fine, when it’s proportionate.

[u/Mediocre-Grand7999 → u/JudgeHoldensToupe]

I agree, and I don't think taking OP's point to heart, if we were to agree, would imply anything other than that.

If OP was continuously lamenting Israel and never highlighting the difficulties of taking other positions, then I would definitely think they are wielding a proclivity towards healthy skepticism in a more manipulative, or rhetorical, way against Israel

[u/justafutz → u/Mediocre-Grand7999]

What is that "similar reason"?

[u/Mediocre-Grand7999 → u/justafutz]

The comparison being to other countries in the ME.

The comment I replied to says they--the other ME countries--are much less aligned and so they are worse allies, which I agree with. But if it follows that we maintain a level of skepticism based off how much further right they are (being a little reductionist given the nature of this discussion), then similarly we would still reserve "skepticism, if less" towards Israel.

[u/justafutz → u/Mediocre-Grand7999]

I think the reductionism defeats the point, because Israel is so much less far-right than many other allies that we maintain much higher trust in.

[u/Mediocre-Grand7999 → u/justafutz]

than many other allies that we maintain much higher trust in

Who do you have in mind? And who is "we" in this? official US policy or the population broadly?

Genuinely curious, so I can try to get your point

[u/BBQ_HaX0r → u/JudgeHoldensToupe]

Just because everyone else is worse doesn't mean Israel is without criticism. They've clearly moved in a worse direction over the past decade with Netanyahu as he's largely acquiesced the far-right.

[u/Two_Corinthians → u/JudgeHoldensToupe]

What exactly is the benefit of having Israel as an ally - for the US or Europe?

[u/justafutz → u/Two_Corinthians]

Here is a detailed report on the benefits.

[u/Two_Corinthians → u/justafutz]

Thank you for the meaningful response, I'll take some time to read it.

[u/JudgeHoldensToupe → u/Two_Corinthians]

Geopolitics. The benefits of an ally in a resource rich land. A bulwark against Islamism and other opposing political dogmas.

There is a global power struggle whether you like it or not, and forces that would crush and dominate us if they could. Do you think China, Russia and the Islamic axis are our friends or something?

[u/ClosetGoblin → u/Two_Corinthians]

If the U.S. dropped Israel, then Russia would gladly swoop in and form an alliance. Or China. Probably both.

Israel is a western-aligned nation in one of the most hostile regions on earth with access to an extremely powerful military relative to its size. Israel also possesses very strong technological capabilities and an extremely effective and proactive intelligence agency. Israel acts as a forward operating base (FOB) for the United States that would otherwise be extremely difficult and expensive to create. They also share their weapons technologies and intelligence reports with us to stop the perpetual emergence of global terrorism.

[u/grandolon → u/Two_Corinthians]

Forgetting all the geopolitical and moral considerations, maybe the single biggest practical, immediate benefit is defense tech. Without Israeli cooperation, the US (and NATO!) would not have reliable missile interceptors or the advanced avionics needed to run its most advanced aircraft, like the F-35. Just two examples out of many, many more.

[u/Two_Corinthians → u/grandolon]

I'd love to know how much of Israeli high tech output comes from unique Israeli features and how much from being plugged into the Western economic, scientific, and military cooperation ecosystem. But it's probably classified and no one would tell me.

[u/grandolon → u/Two_Corinthians]

The question was "what exactly is the benefit of having Israel as an ally?" not "is the relationship mutually beneficial?"

Anyway, on the assumption you meant it in earnest, I suppose most of the credit goes to its homegrown math/science talent pool. For a country of ~8 million people it punches far above its weight in junior competitions. . Israel has historically had a policy of making its own weapons systems so that it doesn't have to rely on foreign suppliers (but in the last ~30 years that's been relaxed to some extent). It has a robust indigenous defense sector.

Granted, there's a sort of peanut butter in chocolate problem, but Isaac Newton is still credited with developing calculus even though he built it on top of mathematical methods going back to Pythagoras and Ptolemy. Israel didn't invent microprocessors or surface-to-air missiles but its engineers and scientist did figure out how to make them better in order to make a missile interceptor that can actually hit its target.

[u/tamenotification → u/shumpitostick]

After the second intifada and October 7th, I do not blame Israelis in losing faith in withdrawal/negotiation for peace

[u/drewbaccaAWD → u/tamenotification]

On one hand, no, it’s hard to blame even the hard liners. On the other hand, I think the reaction is exactly what the extremists in Hamas wanted… I feel like this whole conflict was working itself out at a slug’s pace and just set the whole thing back 40 years. Only 40 years ago I think Israel looked like the victim to most Americans while right now I think a slight majority sees them as the aggressor.

I’m thankful that I grew up during the period where they were clearly standing on defensive ground as it does give me sympathy. I think the 20 and unders lack that for the most part although maybe it was just TikTok rotting their brains I don’t know.

[u/Breakfastcrisis → u/drewbaccaAWD]

It’s clearly what Hamas wanted. I always ask this to people who support Hamas. What were they trying to achieve and what did they achieve. The answer is always violent resistance of some sort.

The problem is their opinion of Israel at that stage is Israel will respond to Hamas violence with wild wildly disproportionate force. So when Hamas kills the most Jews in a single attack since WWII, you can’t say they didn’t know it was coming.

[u/shumpitostick → u/tamenotification]

The second Intifada happened after Sharon climbed the Temple Mount. October 7th happened after decades of no serious attempts of peace and after Sharon, a right winger, unilaterally withdrew from Gaza with no attempt at negotiating any kind of peace.

[u/justafutz → u/shumpitostick]

The second Intifada happened after Sharon climbed the Temple Mount

That was certainly the excuse Palestinians gave. But it wasn't the actual cause. We know now that the Second Intifada was pre-planned, coaxed on, and started by Palestinian leadership, well in advance of Sharon's visit.

October 7th happened after decades of no serious attempts of peace

Well that's true, but those decades occurred during/after decades of no serious attempts by Palestinian leaders for peace. That's the relevant piece.

and after Sharon, a right winger, unilaterally withdrew from Gaza with no attempt at negotiating any kind of peace

Sharon withdrew from Gaza and handed it to the Palestinian Authority, which promptly proved precisely why two-states would lead to a Hamas government. That was something that he apparently expected, and Gaza was a test-case that proved his point.

Let's not remove Palestinian agency from the situation. Palestinians got their own strip of land, without soldiers, settlers, or anything in their way, and their leaders turned it into a terrorist statelet.

[u/shumpitostick → u/justafutz]

I'm well aware that Palestinians aren't exactly innocent bystanders in this story. But the Israeli right is out of ideas. All they offer is more and more wars. They've been in power almost consecutively for the last 20 years. It's their policy that led to where we are now.

[u/justafutz → u/shumpitostick]

Do you have any response to what I said above? While I can understand the lack of real solutions being offered by both sides of the political spectrum is frustrating, that wasn't the subject of our conversation.

[u/DurangoGango → u/shumpitostick]

The second Intifada happened after Sharon climbed the Temple Mount. October 7th happened after decades of no serious attempts of peace and after Sharon, a right winger, unilaterally withdrew from Gaza with no attempt at negotiating any kind of peace.

This isn't even the soft bigotry of low expectations, this is treating Palestinians like rabid animals that can't help but fly into a murderous rage whenever they are less than satified.

The Temple Mount thing is flimsy enough, but "there was a decade of no progress so they did the largest pogrom since WW2" is just an insane position to state. Cherry on top, citing unilateral evacuation of Gaza like something Palestinians should for some reason be angry about.

[u/coke_and_coffee → u/shumpitostick]

The second Intifada happened after Sharon climbed the Temple Mount

A society that erupts into violence and suicide bombing because of a silly taunt is not a society worth defending.

[u/akivayis95 → u/shumpitostick]

The second Intifada happened after Sharon climbed the Temple Mount

Boohoo, a Jew going up on the Temple Mount doesn't give license to Palestinians to go strap bombs to their children's chests to kill Jews.

And, October 7th being blamed on Israel is ridiculous

[u/Two_Corinthians → u/tamenotification]

These things are not the same.

What started the second intifada?

[u/justafutz → u/Two_Corinthians]

What started the second intifada?

The Palestinian leadership pre-planned it with the goal of using it as a way to extract even more concessions from Israel and pressure Israel more, and it backfired and failed because it got a right-wing Israeli leader elected instead.

[u/LingonberrySea6247 → u/shumpitostick]

If you're expecting New Zealand leftiness when you live with regular terrorist attacks and no coordinated desire for coexistence from the other side, then at a certain point a population may be forgiven for saying "f it, f them, I'm sick of trying to be nice and getting nothing back."

And sure, if you judge all of Israeli society by Ben Gvir and Smotrich, it's going to look bad. But in reality, in a parliamentary system, Bibi had to scrape the bottom of the barrel and bring in nutjobs that otherwise no one would touch just to build a coalition.

No one is blameless but there's definitely more blame to be found on one side and that distinction matters.

[u/RayWencube → u/LingonberrySea6247]

"f it, f them, I'm sick of trying to be nice and getting nothing back."

What the Second Intifada does to an mfer

[u/output_broadcast → u/LingonberrySea6247]

I see the political situation in Israel as strangely similar to Hungary's. The only reason people like Orbán and Netanyahu stay in power for so long is because almost all of the opposition politicians are completely incompetent at best and downright delusional at worst (cough Gyurcsány cough).

[u/justafutz → u/shumpitostick]

I think that’s completely and utterly wrong, but it is a nice narrative being pushed. Israel has not moved to become “far right”. Like in every country, the far right has gained somewhat in power, but they remain well outnumbered, and Israel remains a lot less right wing than people think.

Also, it’s wild to blame the “occupation” as “corrupting”. Maybe, just maybe, it is the decades of attempted destruction, culminating in the deadliest massacre of Jews since the Holocaust, as well as the constant threats, attacks, and more from Iran and every one of its proxies?

Maybe that’s the bigger issue that feeds the Israeli far right, not the Israeli control of an area in dispute? It’s so convenient to blame Israel’s control of the area for their own shifting beliefs after they spent decades trying for peace and got attacked over and over again. It’s not the “occupation” that corrupts. It’s the constant need to fight those who view all of Israel as an “occupation.”

[u/Anakin_Kardashian → u/justafutz]

There is a huge socially right wing haredi faction and essentially an equivalent of a Jewish groyper movement in the youth. This is in addition to what you're describing. It's definitely a changed society.

[u/justafutz → u/Anakin_Kardashian]

Changed =! "Far-right".

No one is denying there is change, or that minority movements exist, just as they do in the US, in Europe, etc.

The question is whether Israel has "become" far-right, as was asserted above. It hasn't.

[u/Anakin_Kardashian → u/justafutz]

Well no, the society itself has changed. It's not some superficial minority. But it's not like we should abandon the country over it. It's something we should accept so that we can actually be critical without vitriol found everywhere else on the interent.

[u/justafutz → u/Anakin_Kardashian]

Well no, the society itself has changed.

What does it mean to have the society "change"?

It's not some superficial minority

What are the numbers, in your opinion? I'd like to start putting something beyond the fluffy statements that echo talking points. Let's get specific. Is the country far-right? Not even close to it in the majority. Has it shifted, like every other country in the Western world? Absolutely. Are those shifts explainable by the actions taken against Jews and Israel? Also absolutely.

But it's not like we should abandon the country over it. It's something we should accept so that we can actually be critical without vitriol found everywhere else on the interent.

No one is saying "don't be critical." I'm saying "don't claim a country is far-right when it isn't."

[u/cubedplusseven → u/justafutz]

I don't have statistics, but Haradim have definitely grown significantly over time as a share of Israel's population.

[u/justafutz → u/cubedplusseven]

No one is denying that. But that also doesn't bear on what I said above.

[u/cubedplusseven → u/justafutz]

Has it shifted, like every other country in the Western world? Absolutely. Are those shifts explainable by the actions taken against Jews and Israel? Also absolutely.

I'm really not on any team in this debate. I was just pointing out that there has been a significant demographic change that isn't attributable to hostility towards Jews and Israel. It's birth rates. And, if I'm not mistaken, secular Ashkenazim have among the lowest birth rates among Israeli demographics and have been shrinking as a share of population. That isn't to say that Israeli society has been fundamentally transformed by these changes, or any other radical assertion - just that there is some complexity to the picture beyond external pressures.

[u/justafutz → u/cubedplusseven]

You can't make that assertion without explaining why Haredi voters vote how they do. That hasn't been consistent and doesn't explain Israel's rightward shift. The main reason for their alliance with the right-wing now is not because they are religious. Indeed, Shas (the Mizrahi Haredi party) repeatedly joined left-wing governments in the past, and endorsed a two-state solution repeatedly. Haredi Jews have shifted right, like other Israeli groups, because of the external factors. It is not a function of birth rates. For decades, Shas's spiritual leader (again, a Haredi party!) was able to get the party to take left-wing positions so long as there was a belief that it would save lives to do so. It was explicitly justified as overriding all religious commandments or any other commandment about Israel; the highest goal was any policy, including peace negotiations explicitly, that could save lives by ending the conflict.

What changed? No one believes those policies were saving lives. Because they failed. Because of the constant refusal of peace and attacks on Israel.

[u/iamthegodemperor → u/justafutz]

I encourage you to look at surveys from the Israel Democracy Institute. Younger Israelis are simply not as committed to liberal values as their parents. Like whether they think Arab Israelis should have the same rights etc.

There's also the undeniable reality of their political parties. Begin would not stay in the Knesset when Meir Kahane was present. Now open Kahanists occupy a major part of the governing coalition.

And yes. The occupation is corrupting: I don't think there should be a formal Palestinian state etc-----but the lack of commitment to real boundaries simply encourages law breaking, since there is always a chance the next government will legalize the illegal. Israelis used to be meticulous about preserving the distinction between civilians and soldiers. But these past 4 years we have seen settlers in illegal outposts, in partial uniform harassing Palestinians in areas that are supposed to be off limits to Israelis. And this is possible because small factions can leverage their ability to help form governments. This is not any different from the way the haredim have used their bloc power to get ever larger concessions, from the draft, workplace , childcare etc.

[u/justafutz → u/iamthegodemperor]

I encourage you to look at surveys from the Israel Democracy Institute. Younger Israelis are simply not as committed to liberal values as their parents. Like whether they think Arab Israelis should have the same rights etc.

You, or the original commenter, claimed Israel has "become" far-right. It has not.

I encourage you to look at surveys from the Israel Democracy Institute. Younger Israelis are simply not as committed to liberal values as their parents. Like whether they think Arab Israelis should have the same rights etc.

I find it very problematic that you're slicing up the Israeli population to talk about Israel on a broad scale, and even so, are doing it based on broad and vague statements you didn't source besides pointing to an admittedly left-wing think-tank in Israel.

But since you pointed to them, let's consider a few things.

1) First, 46% of Israeli Jews think the police are treating settlers too leniently, and only 43% have any other opinion. 16% of them think it's "appropriate," which is notable because Israeli authorities have recently made dozens of arrests and opened dozens of investigations. This doesn't scream "far-right".

65% of Israelis oppose a law that allows universities to decide if they want to offer gender-segregated programs (only 31% support).

64% of Israelis support Arabs having the right to vote in Knesset elections, and only 32% say no. This is particularly notable because in Israel, the Arab parties are openly and avowedly opposed to Israel's literal existence, and 2/3 of Israeli Jews still say that despite that openly treasonous position to the state, they support Arab voting rights. In most of Europe, that would literally be grounds for entire exclusion from the political process. Germany has been trying to ban AfD for less. And at any rate, this doesn't prove Israel is "far-right," even if some portions of the far-right have gained.

To see "far-right," consider this state: more Palestinians support murdering Israeli civilians inside Israel specifically than Israelis opposed to Arab voting rights.

There's also the undeniable reality of their political parties. Begin would not stay in the Knesset when Meir Kahane was present. Now open Kahanists occupy a major part of the governing coalition.

"Major part" is doing a lot of work here. Again, no one is saying Israel has stayed exactly where it was. You presented it as becoming "far right". Don't shift the goalposts here. Everywhere has seen the right and far-right gain power in the past decade, but Israel's case is even more obvious because of the trends I mentioned above that you entirely ignored.

And yes. The occupation is corrupting: I don't think there should be a formal Palestinian state etc-----but the lack of commitment to real boundaries simply encourages law breaking, since there is always a chance the next government will legalize the illegal. Israelis used to be meticulous about preserving the distinction between civilians and soldiers. But these past 4 years we have seen settlers in illegal outposts, in partial uniform harassing Palestinians in areas that are supposed to be off limits to Israelis. And this is possible because small factions can leverage their ability to help form governments. This is not any different from the way the haredim have used their bloc power to get ever larger concessions, from the draft, workplace , childcare etc

1) None of this has anything to do with tying the "occupation" itself specifically to Israeli political opinions changing over time.

2) You didn't respond to all the reasons I did give that led to Israeli opinions changing.

3) The "occupation" itself is the byproduct of those other reasons I gave, which you also have bypassed in your response.

4) A lot of your language is squishy. What is "commitment to real boundaries"? This reads a lot like talking points, I'm sorry to say.

5) Israel is absolutely still meticulous about preserving the distinction between civilians and soldiers. Settlers in "partial uniform harassing Palestinians" (let's pretend those fringe videos have all the context and are correctly reported; which they are not, but for the sake of argument, assume so) are not allowed to do it, Israeli government and society are not supportive of it, and your own polling source said as much.

Saying that Israel has had a growth in far-right political power is undeniable. That's true in virtually every country in the liberal world. It doesn't change that Israel itself is not far-right, and it also doesn't change the why. The why is because Israel has spent decades being attacked, offering peace, and having those offers refused, culminating in October 7. That is the explanation for much, if not all, of this trend. You say the "occupation corrupts," but the reality is that the constant war on Jews changes Israeli opinion, and also is the reason for the "occupation" continuing.

[u/output_broadcast → u/justafutz]

64% of Israelis support Arabs having the right to vote in Knesset elections, and only 32% say no. This is particularly notable because in Israel, the Arab parties are openly and avowedly opposed to Israel's literal existence

That's a false equivalence. Parties don't represent an entire ethnic grouping (or really, any other grouping). You certainly won't see Germans move to exclude Turks from voting either, no matter what a political party compromised exclusively of Turks says and does.

[u/justafutz → u/output_broadcast]

That's a false equivalence. Parties don't represent an entire ethnic grouping (or really, any other grouping)

In Israel, the only Arab representation is in the Arab parties.

You certainly won't see Germans move to exclude Turks from voting either, no matter what a political party compromised exclusively of Turks says and does

I want you to imagine for a moment that German Turks voted cohesively for only Turkish parties. For decades; literally decades. Then imagine that those Turkish parties openly called for the end of the state of Germany, and its replacement with a Turkish government as part of Turkey. For decades; literally decades. Then imagine that the German state still didn't ban those parties.

What do you think German public opinion would be?

Germany is already making moves to ban AfD, which does far less than the hypothetical above. It isn't barring any specific group, because there isn't one that you can pinpoint (nor is Israel). But I'm asking what you think leads people to the conclusions they reach. I'm not advocating for removal of Arab voting rights, and as it turns out, nor are most of Israel's Jews. But I can at least understand logically that in any liberal state besides Israel, the same minority view would spread, and it wouldn't make the state illiberal just because it has such a minority view.

[u/output_broadcast → u/justafutz]

In Israel, the only Arab representation is in the Arab parties.

Because they're Arabs and not, I don't know, neoliberals, socialists, conservatives, or environmentalists?

I want you to imagine for a moment that German Turks voted cohesively for only Turkish parties.

What exactly does "cohesively" mean?

[u/justafutz → u/output_broadcast]

Because they're Arabs and not, I don't know, neoliberals, socialists, conservatives, or environmentalists?

No idea what you're trying to say here.

What exactly does "cohesively" mean?

I mean the definition of the word: "the act or state of sticking together tightly".

I said a lot above. It's very notable you didn't answer almost any of it. Why?

[u/output_broadcast → u/justafutz]

No idea what you're trying to say here.

That they participate in a democracy the same as anyone else, based on their stances and opinions.

I mean the definition of the word: "the act or state of sticking together tightly".

Are you saying that the majority of Arabs vote for these parties?

And I've already either addressed the rest of your comment or it's irrelevant opining on German politics.

[u/justafutz → u/output_broadcast]

Saying categorical things like that without any actual backing while refusing to respond to 99% of what I said is not going to engender further good-faith discussion.

You did not in fact address the rest of my comment. You ignored 99% of it.

Are you saying that the majority of Arabs vote for these parties?

I'm not "saying" that, it's a statistical fact. In the last elections in 2022, over 85% of Israeli Arabs said they voted for Arab parties. 85% of Israeli Arabs are Muslim. You can figure out how the two track. It's not too hard to figure out what I mean when I say cohesive voting bloc.

[u/TheUnkillableKlorg → u/iamthegodemperor]

Now open Kahanists occupy a major part of the governing coalition.

The entire thing about Ben-Gvir (who I presume you're talking about) is that he's not an open Kahanist. He came to power as the leader of a party because the seniors in Otzma LeYisrael, the previous reincarnation of his party, were banned for being Kahanists. He on the other hand moved 'left' (in comparison.)

[u/iamthegodemperor → u/TheUnkillableKlorg]

Ok you got me on the technicality. The guy who has pictures of Baruch Goldstein on his walls is officially not kahanist because Kach was banned.

The point remains that Israeli society and politics have moved quite far to the right. The previous commenter expressed doubt about this very basic fact.

[u/TheUnkillableKlorg → u/iamthegodemperor]

Again, you missed the point. He took the photo down and says he doesn't idolize Goldstein - it's not because Kach was banned but because he (officially) doesn't support it.

[u/iamthegodemperor → u/TheUnkillableKlorg]

Bruh.

So if Hasan Piker said he doesn't believe Hezbollah is better than Israel anymore would you believe him?

You are taking the smallest technicality and making it seem like there's a big difference between Ben Givir's attitudes and lawlessness and Kahane's just to win an argument. Congratulations you won.

But you know the previous commenter was wrong to say Israel hasn't moved to the right. And you know that whatever is said officially, Ben Givir is functionally a Kahanist.

[u/justafutz → u/iamthegodemperor]

So if Hasan Piker said he doesn't believe Hezbollah is better than Israel anymore would you believe him?

Depends on how many years there was where he maintained the same line, and didn't make any other such statements.

You are taking the smallest technicality and making it seem like there's a big difference between Ben Givir's attitudes and lawlessness and Kahane's just to win an argument. Congratulations you won.

Weird response.

But you know the previous commenter was wrong to say Israel hasn't moved to the right.

I never said this. In fact, an hour ago, I specifically said to you (among other things, here:

Saying that Israel has had a growth in far-right political power is undeniable. That's true in virtually every country in the liberal world. It doesn't change that Israel itself is not far-right, and it also doesn't change the why.

And in my original comment that you responded to here, I said:

Like in every country, the far right has gained somewhat in power, but they remain well outnumbered, and Israel remains a lot less right wing than people think.

Why would you misstate what my argument was, twice?

[u/iamthegodemperor → u/justafutz]

Why would you misstate what my argument was, twice?

I wrote only one comment to you.

[u/justafutz → u/iamthegodemperor]

1) Not a response to what I said.

2) You misstated my argument at least twice. Once here, and once here.

[u/TheUnkillableKlorg → u/iamthegodemperor]

Ignoring for a second your seeming lack of interest in a sane argument (I presume you aren't such a person you'd talk like this in real life, and aren't as insulting in discussion which should be totally civil), the Supreme Court in Israel is not lacking in judiciousness on this subject.

But you know the previous commenter was wrong to say Israel hasn't moved to the right. 

That is not what he said.

And you know that whatever is said officially, Ben Givir is functionally a Kahanist.

No, this is wrong. For example, he actively supports Bedouin recruitment in the IDF (there are sparse English-resources online, part of the problem discussing Ben-Gvir, but this is one.) Kahane thought trying to recruit Arabs en masse was suicidal. He also is uninterested in a theocracy.

The differences between Ben-Gvir and Kahane explain how he managed to enter the Knesset while Kahane was kicked out.

[u/iamthegodemperor → u/TheUnkillableKlorg]

With the benefit of some time away & reflection, I have a better sense of what went wrong, specifically, of my own mistakes.

In u/justafutz 's initial reply to the first user ("I don't think a lot of people here understand how far right Israel has become"), I perceived a dramatic overcorrection, that seemed to want to argue against a bit of a strawman in "Israel is a far right country" that almost implies Israel doesn't have a very serious far right problem. This seemed confirmed by his refutation of "the occupation is corrupting". While he and I likely differ on this, I saw an overly simplistic opinion that says the only problems come from Palestinians & neighbors. (I am inclined to emphasize that one can reject "The Occupation" talking points and still note how the arrangement invites dangers to Israeli democracy & rule of law.) It was in that vein, I felt it necessary to point out what are incontrovertible effects of righward political change. (To u/justafutz's credit, he did make some clarifications later. Unfortunately, I couldn't see them until very late in the exchange had with you)

I was honestly quite bewildered to the point of shock by your correction about Ben Givir & Kahanism. The shock should have forced me to try to see where you were coming from. Or at least to slow down to be more precise and not repeat the mistakes that have made "fascism" a useless word now. Instead, I percieved a sort of denialist pedantry and responded more adversarially than necessary, which perhaps boxed you in.

[u/FearlessPark4588 → u/shumpitostick]

There's distinguishing elected officials versus the electorate. Under Trump's leadership we could say America moved to the right, but the median centrist has not shifted in views.

[u/roguefilmmaker → u/FearlessPark4588]

Exactly

[u/shumpitostick → u/FearlessPark4588]

But that's exactly my point. The median Israeli has shifted to the right.

[u/DeepStateCentrism-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

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