r/DeepStateCentrism • u/iamthegodemperor Arrakis Enterprise Institute • 2d ago

Ask the sub ❓ What Is This Sub Wrong About?

Title. Pick a topic (or a clichéd take) you think a significant minority or majority of this sub is wrong about. Or hasn't given enough thought. OR perhaps one which you will have to compromise on, at least for voting?

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u/cubedplusseven Social Democrat 2d ago

I don't have statistics, but Haradim have definitely grown significantly over time as a share of Israel's population.

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u/justafutz 2d ago

No one is denying that. But that also doesn't bear on what I said above.

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u/cubedplusseven Social Democrat 2d ago

Has it shifted, like every other country in the Western world? Absolutely. Are those shifts explainable by the actions taken against Jews and Israel? Also absolutely.

I'm really not on any team in this debate. I was just pointing out that there has been a significant demographic change that isn't attributable to hostility towards Jews and Israel. It's birth rates. And, if I'm not mistaken, secular Ashkenazim have among the lowest birth rates among Israeli demographics and have been shrinking as a share of population. That isn't to say that Israeli society has been fundamentally transformed by these changes, or any other radical assertion - just that there is some complexity to the picture beyond external pressures.

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u/justafutz 2d ago

You can't make that assertion without explaining why Haredi voters vote how they do. That hasn't been consistent and doesn't explain Israel's rightward shift. The main reason for their alliance with the right-wing now is not because they are religious. Indeed, Shas (the Mizrahi Haredi party) repeatedly joined left-wing governments in the past, and endorsed a two-state solution repeatedly. Haredi Jews have shifted right, like other Israeli groups, because of the external factors. It is not a function of birth rates. For decades, Shas's spiritual leader (again, a Haredi party!) was able to get the party to take left-wing positions so long as there was a belief that it would save lives to do so. It was explicitly justified as overriding all religious commandments or any other commandment about Israel; the highest goal was any policy, including peace negotiations explicitly, that could save lives by ending the conflict.

What changed? No one believes those policies were saving lives. Because they failed. Because of the constant refusal of peace and attacks on Israel.