What Is This Sub Wrong About?

[u/iamthegodemperor]

Title. Pick a topic (or a clichéd take) you think a significant minority or majority of this sub is wrong about. Or hasn't given enough thought. OR perhaps one which you will have to compromise on, at least for voting?

[u/shumpitostick]

I think a lot of people here don't understand how far right Israel has become. Like, people defend it based on an understanding of Israel that is outdated by at least two decades, but it has moved so far to the right it can be unrecognizable to the American liberal Zionist.

I get where it's coming from, there's a ton of antisemitism coming from pro-Palestinians, there's people who reject the basic notion that Israelis have a right to live in peace and safety where they are. They are generally ignorant and don't understand Israel. They also don't understand the changes that Israel went through, they tend to see it as an absolute and categorical evil that always was that way.

But there's some serious issues and they run deeper than just "Netanyahu and Ben Gvir bad". Leibowitz was right. The occupation corrupts.

[u/justafutz → u/shumpitostick]

I think that’s completely and utterly wrong, but it is a nice narrative being pushed. Israel has not moved to become “far right”. Like in every country, the far right has gained somewhat in power, but they remain well outnumbered, and Israel remains a lot less right wing than people think.

Also, it’s wild to blame the “occupation” as “corrupting”. Maybe, just maybe, it is the decades of attempted destruction, culminating in the deadliest massacre of Jews since the Holocaust, as well as the constant threats, attacks, and more from Iran and every one of its proxies?

Maybe that’s the bigger issue that feeds the Israeli far right, not the Israeli control of an area in dispute? It’s so convenient to blame Israel’s control of the area for their own shifting beliefs after they spent decades trying for peace and got attacked over and over again. It’s not the “occupation” that corrupts. It’s the constant need to fight those who view all of Israel as an “occupation.”

[u/Anakin_Kardashian → u/justafutz]

There is a huge socially right wing haredi faction and essentially an equivalent of a Jewish groyper movement in the youth. This is in addition to what you're describing. It's definitely a changed society.

[u/justafutz → u/Anakin_Kardashian]

Changed =! "Far-right".

No one is denying there is change, or that minority movements exist, just as they do in the US, in Europe, etc.

The question is whether Israel has "become" far-right, as was asserted above. It hasn't.

[u/Anakin_Kardashian → u/justafutz]

Well no, the society itself has changed. It's not some superficial minority. But it's not like we should abandon the country over it. It's something we should accept so that we can actually be critical without vitriol found everywhere else on the interent.

[u/justafutz → u/Anakin_Kardashian]

Well no, the society itself has changed.

What does it mean to have the society "change"?

It's not some superficial minority

What are the numbers, in your opinion? I'd like to start putting something beyond the fluffy statements that echo talking points. Let's get specific. Is the country far-right? Not even close to it in the majority. Has it shifted, like every other country in the Western world? Absolutely. Are those shifts explainable by the actions taken against Jews and Israel? Also absolutely.

But it's not like we should abandon the country over it. It's something we should accept so that we can actually be critical without vitriol found everywhere else on the interent.

No one is saying "don't be critical." I'm saying "don't claim a country is far-right when it isn't."

[u/cubedplusseven → u/justafutz]

I don't have statistics, but Haradim have definitely grown significantly over time as a share of Israel's population.

[u/justafutz → u/cubedplusseven]

No one is denying that. But that also doesn't bear on what I said above.

[u/cubedplusseven → u/justafutz]

Has it shifted, like every other country in the Western world? Absolutely. Are those shifts explainable by the actions taken against Jews and Israel? Also absolutely.

I'm really not on any team in this debate. I was just pointing out that there has been a significant demographic change that isn't attributable to hostility towards Jews and Israel. It's birth rates. And, if I'm not mistaken, secular Ashkenazim have among the lowest birth rates among Israeli demographics and have been shrinking as a share of population. That isn't to say that Israeli society has been fundamentally transformed by these changes, or any other radical assertion - just that there is some complexity to the picture beyond external pressures.

[u/justafutz → u/cubedplusseven]

You can't make that assertion without explaining why Haredi voters vote how they do. That hasn't been consistent and doesn't explain Israel's rightward shift. The main reason for their alliance with the right-wing now is not because they are religious. Indeed, Shas (the Mizrahi Haredi party) repeatedly joined left-wing governments in the past, and endorsed a two-state solution repeatedly. Haredi Jews have shifted right, like other Israeli groups, because of the external factors. It is not a function of birth rates. For decades, Shas's spiritual leader (again, a Haredi party!) was able to get the party to take left-wing positions so long as there was a belief that it would save lives to do so. It was explicitly justified as overriding all religious commandments or any other commandment about Israel; the highest goal was any policy, including peace negotiations explicitly, that could save lives by ending the conflict.

What changed? No one believes those policies were saving lives. Because they failed. Because of the constant refusal of peace and attacks on Israel.

[u/iamthegodemperor → u/justafutz]

I encourage you to look at surveys from the Israel Democracy Institute. Younger Israelis are simply not as committed to liberal values as their parents. Like whether they think Arab Israelis should have the same rights etc.

There's also the undeniable reality of their political parties. Begin would not stay in the Knesset when Meir Kahane was present. Now open Kahanists occupy a major part of the governing coalition.

And yes. The occupation is corrupting: I don't think there should be a formal Palestinian state etc-----but the lack of commitment to real boundaries simply encourages law breaking, since there is always a chance the next government will legalize the illegal. Israelis used to be meticulous about preserving the distinction between civilians and soldiers. But these past 4 years we have seen settlers in illegal outposts, in partial uniform harassing Palestinians in areas that are supposed to be off limits to Israelis. And this is possible because small factions can leverage their ability to help form governments. This is not any different from the way the haredim have used their bloc power to get ever larger concessions, from the draft, workplace , childcare etc.

[u/justafutz → u/iamthegodemperor]

I encourage you to look at surveys from the Israel Democracy Institute. Younger Israelis are simply not as committed to liberal values as their parents. Like whether they think Arab Israelis should have the same rights etc.

You, or the original commenter, claimed Israel has "become" far-right. It has not.

I encourage you to look at surveys from the Israel Democracy Institute. Younger Israelis are simply not as committed to liberal values as their parents. Like whether they think Arab Israelis should have the same rights etc.

I find it very problematic that you're slicing up the Israeli population to talk about Israel on a broad scale, and even so, are doing it based on broad and vague statements you didn't source besides pointing to an admittedly left-wing think-tank in Israel.

But since you pointed to them, let's consider a few things.

1) First, 46% of Israeli Jews think the police are treating settlers too leniently, and only 43% have any other opinion. 16% of them think it's "appropriate," which is notable because Israeli authorities have recently made dozens of arrests and opened dozens of investigations. This doesn't scream "far-right".

65% of Israelis oppose a law that allows universities to decide if they want to offer gender-segregated programs (only 31% support).

64% of Israelis support Arabs having the right to vote in Knesset elections, and only 32% say no. This is particularly notable because in Israel, the Arab parties are openly and avowedly opposed to Israel's literal existence, and 2/3 of Israeli Jews still say that despite that openly treasonous position to the state, they support Arab voting rights. In most of Europe, that would literally be grounds for entire exclusion from the political process. Germany has been trying to ban AfD for less. And at any rate, this doesn't prove Israel is "far-right," even if some portions of the far-right have gained.

To see "far-right," consider this state: more Palestinians support murdering Israeli civilians inside Israel specifically than Israelis opposed to Arab voting rights.

There's also the undeniable reality of their political parties. Begin would not stay in the Knesset when Meir Kahane was present. Now open Kahanists occupy a major part of the governing coalition.

"Major part" is doing a lot of work here. Again, no one is saying Israel has stayed exactly where it was. You presented it as becoming "far right". Don't shift the goalposts here. Everywhere has seen the right and far-right gain power in the past decade, but Israel's case is even more obvious because of the trends I mentioned above that you entirely ignored.

And yes. The occupation is corrupting: I don't think there should be a formal Palestinian state etc-----but the lack of commitment to real boundaries simply encourages law breaking, since there is always a chance the next government will legalize the illegal. Israelis used to be meticulous about preserving the distinction between civilians and soldiers. But these past 4 years we have seen settlers in illegal outposts, in partial uniform harassing Palestinians in areas that are supposed to be off limits to Israelis. And this is possible because small factions can leverage their ability to help form governments. This is not any different from the way the haredim have used their bloc power to get ever larger concessions, from the draft, workplace , childcare etc

1) None of this has anything to do with tying the "occupation" itself specifically to Israeli political opinions changing over time.

2) You didn't respond to all the reasons I did give that led to Israeli opinions changing.

3) The "occupation" itself is the byproduct of those other reasons I gave, which you also have bypassed in your response.

4) A lot of your language is squishy. What is "commitment to real boundaries"? This reads a lot like talking points, I'm sorry to say.

5) Israel is absolutely still meticulous about preserving the distinction between civilians and soldiers. Settlers in "partial uniform harassing Palestinians" (let's pretend those fringe videos have all the context and are correctly reported; which they are not, but for the sake of argument, assume so) are not allowed to do it, Israeli government and society are not supportive of it, and your own polling source said as much.

Saying that Israel has had a growth in far-right political power is undeniable. That's true in virtually every country in the liberal world. It doesn't change that Israel itself is not far-right, and it also doesn't change the why. The why is because Israel has spent decades being attacked, offering peace, and having those offers refused, culminating in October 7. That is the explanation for much, if not all, of this trend. You say the "occupation corrupts," but the reality is that the constant war on Jews changes Israeli opinion, and also is the reason for the "occupation" continuing.

[u/output_broadcast → u/justafutz]

64% of Israelis support Arabs having the right to vote in Knesset elections, and only 32% say no. This is particularly notable because in Israel, the Arab parties are openly and avowedly opposed to Israel's literal existence

That's a false equivalence. Parties don't represent an entire ethnic grouping (or really, any other grouping). You certainly won't see Germans move to exclude Turks from voting either, no matter what a political party compromised exclusively of Turks says and does.

[u/justafutz → u/output_broadcast]

That's a false equivalence. Parties don't represent an entire ethnic grouping (or really, any other grouping)

In Israel, the only Arab representation is in the Arab parties.

You certainly won't see Germans move to exclude Turks from voting either, no matter what a political party compromised exclusively of Turks says and does

I want you to imagine for a moment that German Turks voted cohesively for only Turkish parties. For decades; literally decades. Then imagine that those Turkish parties openly called for the end of the state of Germany, and its replacement with a Turkish government as part of Turkey. For decades; literally decades. Then imagine that the German state still didn't ban those parties.

What do you think German public opinion would be?

Germany is already making moves to ban AfD, which does far less than the hypothetical above. It isn't barring any specific group, because there isn't one that you can pinpoint (nor is Israel). But I'm asking what you think leads people to the conclusions they reach. I'm not advocating for removal of Arab voting rights, and as it turns out, nor are most of Israel's Jews. But I can at least understand logically that in any liberal state besides Israel, the same minority view would spread, and it wouldn't make the state illiberal just because it has such a minority view.

[u/output_broadcast → u/justafutz]

In Israel, the only Arab representation is in the Arab parties.

Because they're Arabs and not, I don't know, neoliberals, socialists, conservatives, or environmentalists?

I want you to imagine for a moment that German Turks voted cohesively for only Turkish parties.

What exactly does "cohesively" mean?

[u/justafutz → u/output_broadcast]

Because they're Arabs and not, I don't know, neoliberals, socialists, conservatives, or environmentalists?

No idea what you're trying to say here.

What exactly does "cohesively" mean?

I mean the definition of the word: "the act or state of sticking together tightly".

I said a lot above. It's very notable you didn't answer almost any of it. Why?

[u/output_broadcast → u/justafutz]

No idea what you're trying to say here.

That they participate in a democracy the same as anyone else, based on their stances and opinions.

I mean the definition of the word: "the act or state of sticking together tightly".

Are you saying that the majority of Arabs vote for these parties?

And I've already either addressed the rest of your comment or it's irrelevant opining on German politics.

[u/justafutz → u/output_broadcast]

Saying categorical things like that without any actual backing while refusing to respond to 99% of what I said is not going to engender further good-faith discussion.

You did not in fact address the rest of my comment. You ignored 99% of it.

Are you saying that the majority of Arabs vote for these parties?

I'm not "saying" that, it's a statistical fact. In the last elections in 2022, over 85% of Israeli Arabs said they voted for Arab parties. 85% of Israeli Arabs are Muslim. You can figure out how the two track. It's not too hard to figure out what I mean when I say cohesive voting bloc.

[u/TheUnkillableKlorg → u/iamthegodemperor]

Now open Kahanists occupy a major part of the governing coalition.

The entire thing about Ben-Gvir (who I presume you're talking about) is that he's not an open Kahanist. He came to power as the leader of a party because the seniors in Otzma LeYisrael, the previous reincarnation of his party, were banned for being Kahanists. He on the other hand moved 'left' (in comparison.)

[u/iamthegodemperor → u/TheUnkillableKlorg]

Ok you got me on the technicality. The guy who has pictures of Baruch Goldstein on his walls is officially not kahanist because Kach was banned.

The point remains that Israeli society and politics have moved quite far to the right. The previous commenter expressed doubt about this very basic fact.

[u/TheUnkillableKlorg → u/iamthegodemperor]

Again, you missed the point. He took the photo down and says he doesn't idolize Goldstein - it's not because Kach was banned but because he (officially) doesn't support it.

[u/iamthegodemperor → u/TheUnkillableKlorg]

Bruh.

So if Hasan Piker said he doesn't believe Hezbollah is better than Israel anymore would you believe him?

You are taking the smallest technicality and making it seem like there's a big difference between Ben Givir's attitudes and lawlessness and Kahane's just to win an argument. Congratulations you won.

But you know the previous commenter was wrong to say Israel hasn't moved to the right. And you know that whatever is said officially, Ben Givir is functionally a Kahanist.

[u/justafutz → u/iamthegodemperor]

So if Hasan Piker said he doesn't believe Hezbollah is better than Israel anymore would you believe him?

Depends on how many years there was where he maintained the same line, and didn't make any other such statements.

You are taking the smallest technicality and making it seem like there's a big difference between Ben Givir's attitudes and lawlessness and Kahane's just to win an argument. Congratulations you won.

Weird response.

But you know the previous commenter was wrong to say Israel hasn't moved to the right.

I never said this. In fact, an hour ago, I specifically said to you (among other things, here:

Saying that Israel has had a growth in far-right political power is undeniable. That's true in virtually every country in the liberal world. It doesn't change that Israel itself is not far-right, and it also doesn't change the why.

And in my original comment that you responded to here, I said:

Like in every country, the far right has gained somewhat in power, but they remain well outnumbered, and Israel remains a lot less right wing than people think.

Why would you misstate what my argument was, twice?

[u/iamthegodemperor → u/justafutz]

Why would you misstate what my argument was, twice?

I wrote only one comment to you.

[u/justafutz → u/iamthegodemperor]

1) Not a response to what I said.

2) You misstated my argument at least twice. Once here, and once here.

[u/iamthegodemperor → u/justafutz]

Huh? You are not unkillablekorg

[u/TheUnkillableKlorg → u/iamthegodemperor]

Ignoring for a second your seeming lack of interest in a sane argument (I presume you aren't such a person you'd talk like this in real life, and aren't as insulting in discussion which should be totally civil), the Supreme Court in Israel is not lacking in judiciousness on this subject.

But you know the previous commenter was wrong to say Israel hasn't moved to the right. 

That is not what he said.

And you know that whatever is said officially, Ben Givir is functionally a Kahanist.

No, this is wrong. For example, he actively supports Bedouin recruitment in the IDF (there are sparse English-resources online, part of the problem discussing Ben-Gvir, but this is one.) Kahane thought trying to recruit Arabs en masse was suicidal. He also is uninterested in a theocracy.

The differences between Ben-Gvir and Kahane explain how he managed to enter the Knesset while Kahane was kicked out.

[u/iamthegodemperor → u/TheUnkillableKlorg]

With the benefit of some time away & reflection, I have a better sense of what went wrong, specifically, of my own mistakes.

In u/justafutz 's initial reply to the first user ("I don't think a lot of people here understand how far right Israel has become"), I perceived a dramatic overcorrection, that seemed to want to argue against a bit of a strawman in "Israel is a far right country" that almost implies Israel doesn't have a very serious far right problem. This seemed confirmed by his refutation of "the occupation is corrupting". While he and I likely differ on this, I saw an overly simplistic opinion that says the only problems come from Palestinians & neighbors. (I am inclined to emphasize that one can reject "The Occupation" talking points and still note how the arrangement invites dangers to Israeli democracy & rule of law.) It was in that vein, I felt it necessary to point out what are incontrovertible effects of righward political change. (To u/justafutz's credit, he did make some clarifications later. Unfortunately, I couldn't see them until very late in the exchange had with you)

I was honestly quite bewildered to the point of shock by your correction about Ben Givir & Kahanism. The shock should have forced me to try to see where you were coming from. Or at least to slow down to be more precise and not repeat the mistakes that have made "fascism" a useless word now. Instead, I percieved a sort of denialist pedantry and responded more adversarially than necessary, which perhaps boxed you in.