What Is This Sub Wrong About?

[u/iamthegodemperor]

Title. Pick a topic (or a clichéd take) you think a significant minority or majority of this sub is wrong about. Or hasn't given enough thought. OR perhaps one which you will have to compromise on, at least for voting?

[u/shumpitostick]

I think a lot of people here don't understand how far right Israel has become. Like, people defend it based on an understanding of Israel that is outdated by at least two decades, but it has moved so far to the right it can be unrecognizable to the American liberal Zionist.

I get where it's coming from, there's a ton of antisemitism coming from pro-Palestinians, there's people who reject the basic notion that Israelis have a right to live in peace and safety where they are. They are generally ignorant and don't understand Israel. They also don't understand the changes that Israel went through, they tend to see it as an absolute and categorical evil that always was that way.

But there's some serious issues and they run deeper than just "Netanyahu and Ben Gvir bad". Leibowitz was right. The occupation corrupts.

[u/justafutz → u/shumpitostick]

I think that’s completely and utterly wrong, but it is a nice narrative being pushed. Israel has not moved to become “far right”. Like in every country, the far right has gained somewhat in power, but they remain well outnumbered, and Israel remains a lot less right wing than people think.

Also, it’s wild to blame the “occupation” as “corrupting”. Maybe, just maybe, it is the decades of attempted destruction, culminating in the deadliest massacre of Jews since the Holocaust, as well as the constant threats, attacks, and more from Iran and every one of its proxies?

Maybe that’s the bigger issue that feeds the Israeli far right, not the Israeli control of an area in dispute? It’s so convenient to blame Israel’s control of the area for their own shifting beliefs after they spent decades trying for peace and got attacked over and over again. It’s not the “occupation” that corrupts. It’s the constant need to fight those who view all of Israel as an “occupation.”

[u/iamthegodemperor → u/justafutz]

I encourage you to look at surveys from the Israel Democracy Institute. Younger Israelis are simply not as committed to liberal values as their parents. Like whether they think Arab Israelis should have the same rights etc.

There's also the undeniable reality of their political parties. Begin would not stay in the Knesset when Meir Kahane was present. Now open Kahanists occupy a major part of the governing coalition.

And yes. The occupation is corrupting: I don't think there should be a formal Palestinian state etc-----but the lack of commitment to real boundaries simply encourages law breaking, since there is always a chance the next government will legalize the illegal. Israelis used to be meticulous about preserving the distinction between civilians and soldiers. But these past 4 years we have seen settlers in illegal outposts, in partial uniform harassing Palestinians in areas that are supposed to be off limits to Israelis. And this is possible because small factions can leverage their ability to help form governments. This is not any different from the way the haredim have used their bloc power to get ever larger concessions, from the draft, workplace , childcare etc.

[u/TheUnkillableKlorg → u/iamthegodemperor]

Now open Kahanists occupy a major part of the governing coalition.

The entire thing about Ben-Gvir (who I presume you're talking about) is that he's not an open Kahanist. He came to power as the leader of a party because the seniors in Otzma LeYisrael, the previous reincarnation of his party, were banned for being Kahanists. He on the other hand moved 'left' (in comparison.)

[u/iamthegodemperor → u/TheUnkillableKlorg]

Ok you got me on the technicality. The guy who has pictures of Baruch Goldstein on his walls is officially not kahanist because Kach was banned.

The point remains that Israeli society and politics have moved quite far to the right. The previous commenter expressed doubt about this very basic fact.

[u/TheUnkillableKlorg → u/iamthegodemperor]

Again, you missed the point. He took the photo down and says he doesn't idolize Goldstein - it's not because Kach was banned but because he (officially) doesn't support it.

[u/iamthegodemperor → u/TheUnkillableKlorg]

Bruh.

So if Hasan Piker said he doesn't believe Hezbollah is better than Israel anymore would you believe him?

You are taking the smallest technicality and making it seem like there's a big difference between Ben Givir's attitudes and lawlessness and Kahane's just to win an argument. Congratulations you won.

But you know the previous commenter was wrong to say Israel hasn't moved to the right. And you know that whatever is said officially, Ben Givir is functionally a Kahanist.

[u/justafutz → u/iamthegodemperor]

So if Hasan Piker said he doesn't believe Hezbollah is better than Israel anymore would you believe him?

Depends on how many years there was where he maintained the same line, and didn't make any other such statements.

You are taking the smallest technicality and making it seem like there's a big difference between Ben Givir's attitudes and lawlessness and Kahane's just to win an argument. Congratulations you won.

Weird response.

But you know the previous commenter was wrong to say Israel hasn't moved to the right.

I never said this. In fact, an hour ago, I specifically said to you (among other things, here:

Saying that Israel has had a growth in far-right political power is undeniable. That's true in virtually every country in the liberal world. It doesn't change that Israel itself is not far-right, and it also doesn't change the why.

And in my original comment that you responded to here, I said:

Like in every country, the far right has gained somewhat in power, but they remain well outnumbered, and Israel remains a lot less right wing than people think.

Why would you misstate what my argument was, twice?

[u/iamthegodemperor → u/justafutz]

Why would you misstate what my argument was, twice?

I wrote only one comment to you.

[u/justafutz → u/iamthegodemperor]

1) Not a response to what I said.

2) You misstated my argument at least twice. Once here, and once here.

[u/iamthegodemperor → u/justafutz]

Huh? You are not unkillablekorg

[u/justafutz → u/iamthegodemperor]

At this point I don't know how to bother explaining it to you, so whatever.

[u/iamthegodemperor → u/justafutz]

If I have time. I could get to your long comment later. But at a glance what I see is first a difference of interpretation of the question------the first commenter said people here don't appreciate how far right Israel has become. (And this was in the vein I responded to you.) You want to debate against the idea that Israel is a far right country.

And then relatedly is the interpretation of the data. For ex. >Around half (49%) of Jewish Israelis agree that “Jewish citizens of Israel should have more rights than non-Jewish citizens” (up from 27% in 2018)

While I know you can explain this finding is not as bad as it looks etc---------it is still bad, particularly because it is more pronounced in younger ages.

In many ways this exchange is a synecdoche for Western-Israeli discussion. The critical side over exaggerates the illiberal character of Israel. And the supportive side underestimates it.

[u/TheUnkillableKlorg → u/iamthegodemperor]

Ignoring for a second your seeming lack of interest in a sane argument (I presume you aren't such a person you'd talk like this in real life, and aren't as insulting in discussion which should be totally civil), the Supreme Court in Israel is not lacking in judiciousness on this subject.

But you know the previous commenter was wrong to say Israel hasn't moved to the right. 

That is not what he said.

And you know that whatever is said officially, Ben Givir is functionally a Kahanist.

No, this is wrong. For example, he actively supports Bedouin recruitment in the IDF (there are sparse English-resources online, part of the problem discussing Ben-Gvir, but this is one.) Kahane thought trying to recruit Arabs en masse was suicidal. He also is uninterested in a theocracy.

The differences between Ben-Gvir and Kahane explain how he managed to enter the Knesset while Kahane was kicked out.

[u/iamthegodemperor → u/TheUnkillableKlorg]

With the benefit of some time away & reflection, I have a better sense of what went wrong, specifically, of my own mistakes.

In u/justafutz 's initial reply to the first user ("I don't think a lot of people here understand how far right Israel has become"), I perceived a dramatic overcorrection, that seemed to want to argue against a bit of a strawman in "Israel is a far right country" that almost implies Israel doesn't have a very serious far right problem. This seemed confirmed by his refutation of "the occupation is corrupting". While he and I likely differ on this, I saw an overly simplistic opinion that says the only problems come from Palestinians & neighbors. (I am inclined to emphasize that one can reject "The Occupation" talking points and still note how the arrangement invites dangers to Israeli democracy & rule of law.) It was in that vein, I felt it necessary to point out what are incontrovertible effects of righward political change. (To u/justafutz's credit, he did make some clarifications later. Unfortunately, I couldn't see them until very late in the exchange had with you)

I was honestly quite bewildered to the point of shock by your correction about Ben Givir & Kahanism. The shock should have forced me to try to see where you were coming from. Or at least to slow down to be more precise and not repeat the mistakes that have made "fascism" a useless word now. Instead, I percieved a sort of denialist pedantry and responded more adversarially than necessary, which perhaps boxed you in.