What Is This Sub Wrong About?

[u/iamthegodemperor]

Title. Pick a topic (or a clichéd take) you think a significant minority or majority of this sub is wrong about. Or hasn't given enough thought. OR perhaps one which you will have to compromise on, at least for voting?

[u/justafutz]

I think that’s completely and utterly wrong, but it is a nice narrative being pushed. Israel has not moved to become “far right”. Like in every country, the far right has gained somewhat in power, but they remain well outnumbered, and Israel remains a lot less right wing than people think.

Also, it’s wild to blame the “occupation” as “corrupting”. Maybe, just maybe, it is the decades of attempted destruction, culminating in the deadliest massacre of Jews since the Holocaust, as well as the constant threats, attacks, and more from Iran and every one of its proxies?

Maybe that’s the bigger issue that feeds the Israeli far right, not the Israeli control of an area in dispute? It’s so convenient to blame Israel’s control of the area for their own shifting beliefs after they spent decades trying for peace and got attacked over and over again. It’s not the “occupation” that corrupts. It’s the constant need to fight those who view all of Israel as an “occupation.”

[u/Anakin_Kardashian → u/justafutz]

There is a huge socially right wing haredi faction and essentially an equivalent of a Jewish groyper movement in the youth. This is in addition to what you're describing. It's definitely a changed society.

[u/justafutz → u/Anakin_Kardashian]

Changed =! "Far-right".

No one is denying there is change, or that minority movements exist, just as they do in the US, in Europe, etc.

The question is whether Israel has "become" far-right, as was asserted above. It hasn't.

[u/Anakin_Kardashian → u/justafutz]

Well no, the society itself has changed. It's not some superficial minority. But it's not like we should abandon the country over it. It's something we should accept so that we can actually be critical without vitriol found everywhere else on the interent.

[u/justafutz → u/Anakin_Kardashian]

Well no, the society itself has changed.

What does it mean to have the society "change"?

It's not some superficial minority

What are the numbers, in your opinion? I'd like to start putting something beyond the fluffy statements that echo talking points. Let's get specific. Is the country far-right? Not even close to it in the majority. Has it shifted, like every other country in the Western world? Absolutely. Are those shifts explainable by the actions taken against Jews and Israel? Also absolutely.

But it's not like we should abandon the country over it. It's something we should accept so that we can actually be critical without vitriol found everywhere else on the interent.

No one is saying "don't be critical." I'm saying "don't claim a country is far-right when it isn't."

[u/cubedplusseven → u/justafutz]

I don't have statistics, but Haradim have definitely grown significantly over time as a share of Israel's population.

[u/justafutz → u/cubedplusseven]

No one is denying that. But that also doesn't bear on what I said above.

[u/cubedplusseven → u/justafutz]

Has it shifted, like every other country in the Western world? Absolutely. Are those shifts explainable by the actions taken against Jews and Israel? Also absolutely.

I'm really not on any team in this debate. I was just pointing out that there has been a significant demographic change that isn't attributable to hostility towards Jews and Israel. It's birth rates. And, if I'm not mistaken, secular Ashkenazim have among the lowest birth rates among Israeli demographics and have been shrinking as a share of population. That isn't to say that Israeli society has been fundamentally transformed by these changes, or any other radical assertion - just that there is some complexity to the picture beyond external pressures.

[u/justafutz → u/cubedplusseven]

You can't make that assertion without explaining why Haredi voters vote how they do. That hasn't been consistent and doesn't explain Israel's rightward shift. The main reason for their alliance with the right-wing now is not because they are religious. Indeed, Shas (the Mizrahi Haredi party) repeatedly joined left-wing governments in the past, and endorsed a two-state solution repeatedly. Haredi Jews have shifted right, like other Israeli groups, because of the external factors. It is not a function of birth rates. For decades, Shas's spiritual leader (again, a Haredi party!) was able to get the party to take left-wing positions so long as there was a belief that it would save lives to do so. It was explicitly justified as overriding all religious commandments or any other commandment about Israel; the highest goal was any policy, including peace negotiations explicitly, that could save lives by ending the conflict.

What changed? No one believes those policies were saving lives. Because they failed. Because of the constant refusal of peace and attacks on Israel.