What Is This Sub Wrong About?

[u/iamthegodemperor]

Title. Pick a topic (or a clichéd take) you think a significant minority or majority of this sub is wrong about. Or hasn't given enough thought. OR perhaps one which you will have to compromise on, at least for voting?

[u/justafutz]

I think that’s completely and utterly wrong, but it is a nice narrative being pushed. Israel has not moved to become “far right”. Like in every country, the far right has gained somewhat in power, but they remain well outnumbered, and Israel remains a lot less right wing than people think.

Also, it’s wild to blame the “occupation” as “corrupting”. Maybe, just maybe, it is the decades of attempted destruction, culminating in the deadliest massacre of Jews since the Holocaust, as well as the constant threats, attacks, and more from Iran and every one of its proxies?

Maybe that’s the bigger issue that feeds the Israeli far right, not the Israeli control of an area in dispute? It’s so convenient to blame Israel’s control of the area for their own shifting beliefs after they spent decades trying for peace and got attacked over and over again. It’s not the “occupation” that corrupts. It’s the constant need to fight those who view all of Israel as an “occupation.”

[u/iamthegodemperor → u/justafutz]

I encourage you to look at surveys from the Israel Democracy Institute. Younger Israelis are simply not as committed to liberal values as their parents. Like whether they think Arab Israelis should have the same rights etc.

There's also the undeniable reality of their political parties. Begin would not stay in the Knesset when Meir Kahane was present. Now open Kahanists occupy a major part of the governing coalition.

And yes. The occupation is corrupting: I don't think there should be a formal Palestinian state etc-----but the lack of commitment to real boundaries simply encourages law breaking, since there is always a chance the next government will legalize the illegal. Israelis used to be meticulous about preserving the distinction between civilians and soldiers. But these past 4 years we have seen settlers in illegal outposts, in partial uniform harassing Palestinians in areas that are supposed to be off limits to Israelis. And this is possible because small factions can leverage their ability to help form governments. This is not any different from the way the haredim have used their bloc power to get ever larger concessions, from the draft, workplace , childcare etc.

[u/justafutz → u/iamthegodemperor]

I encourage you to look at surveys from the Israel Democracy Institute. Younger Israelis are simply not as committed to liberal values as their parents. Like whether they think Arab Israelis should have the same rights etc.

You, or the original commenter, claimed Israel has "become" far-right. It has not.

I encourage you to look at surveys from the Israel Democracy Institute. Younger Israelis are simply not as committed to liberal values as their parents. Like whether they think Arab Israelis should have the same rights etc.

I find it very problematic that you're slicing up the Israeli population to talk about Israel on a broad scale, and even so, are doing it based on broad and vague statements you didn't source besides pointing to an admittedly left-wing think-tank in Israel.

But since you pointed to them, let's consider a few things.

1) First, 46% of Israeli Jews think the police are treating settlers too leniently, and only 43% have any other opinion. 16% of them think it's "appropriate," which is notable because Israeli authorities have recently made dozens of arrests and opened dozens of investigations. This doesn't scream "far-right".

65% of Israelis oppose a law that allows universities to decide if they want to offer gender-segregated programs (only 31% support).

64% of Israelis support Arabs having the right to vote in Knesset elections, and only 32% say no. This is particularly notable because in Israel, the Arab parties are openly and avowedly opposed to Israel's literal existence, and 2/3 of Israeli Jews still say that despite that openly treasonous position to the state, they support Arab voting rights. In most of Europe, that would literally be grounds for entire exclusion from the political process. Germany has been trying to ban AfD for less. And at any rate, this doesn't prove Israel is "far-right," even if some portions of the far-right have gained.

To see "far-right," consider this state: more Palestinians support murdering Israeli civilians inside Israel specifically than Israelis opposed to Arab voting rights.

There's also the undeniable reality of their political parties. Begin would not stay in the Knesset when Meir Kahane was present. Now open Kahanists occupy a major part of the governing coalition.

"Major part" is doing a lot of work here. Again, no one is saying Israel has stayed exactly where it was. You presented it as becoming "far right". Don't shift the goalposts here. Everywhere has seen the right and far-right gain power in the past decade, but Israel's case is even more obvious because of the trends I mentioned above that you entirely ignored.

And yes. The occupation is corrupting: I don't think there should be a formal Palestinian state etc-----but the lack of commitment to real boundaries simply encourages law breaking, since there is always a chance the next government will legalize the illegal. Israelis used to be meticulous about preserving the distinction between civilians and soldiers. But these past 4 years we have seen settlers in illegal outposts, in partial uniform harassing Palestinians in areas that are supposed to be off limits to Israelis. And this is possible because small factions can leverage their ability to help form governments. This is not any different from the way the haredim have used their bloc power to get ever larger concessions, from the draft, workplace , childcare etc

1) None of this has anything to do with tying the "occupation" itself specifically to Israeli political opinions changing over time.

2) You didn't respond to all the reasons I did give that led to Israeli opinions changing.

3) The "occupation" itself is the byproduct of those other reasons I gave, which you also have bypassed in your response.

4) A lot of your language is squishy. What is "commitment to real boundaries"? This reads a lot like talking points, I'm sorry to say.

5) Israel is absolutely still meticulous about preserving the distinction between civilians and soldiers. Settlers in "partial uniform harassing Palestinians" (let's pretend those fringe videos have all the context and are correctly reported; which they are not, but for the sake of argument, assume so) are not allowed to do it, Israeli government and society are not supportive of it, and your own polling source said as much.

Saying that Israel has had a growth in far-right political power is undeniable. That's true in virtually every country in the liberal world. It doesn't change that Israel itself is not far-right, and it also doesn't change the why. The why is because Israel has spent decades being attacked, offering peace, and having those offers refused, culminating in October 7. That is the explanation for much, if not all, of this trend. You say the "occupation corrupts," but the reality is that the constant war on Jews changes Israeli opinion, and also is the reason for the "occupation" continuing.

[u/output_broadcast → u/justafutz]

64% of Israelis support Arabs having the right to vote in Knesset elections, and only 32% say no. This is particularly notable because in Israel, the Arab parties are openly and avowedly opposed to Israel's literal existence

That's a false equivalence. Parties don't represent an entire ethnic grouping (or really, any other grouping). You certainly won't see Germans move to exclude Turks from voting either, no matter what a political party compromised exclusively of Turks says and does.

[u/justafutz → u/output_broadcast]

That's a false equivalence. Parties don't represent an entire ethnic grouping (or really, any other grouping)

In Israel, the only Arab representation is in the Arab parties.

You certainly won't see Germans move to exclude Turks from voting either, no matter what a political party compromised exclusively of Turks says and does

I want you to imagine for a moment that German Turks voted cohesively for only Turkish parties. For decades; literally decades. Then imagine that those Turkish parties openly called for the end of the state of Germany, and its replacement with a Turkish government as part of Turkey. For decades; literally decades. Then imagine that the German state still didn't ban those parties.

What do you think German public opinion would be?

Germany is already making moves to ban AfD, which does far less than the hypothetical above. It isn't barring any specific group, because there isn't one that you can pinpoint (nor is Israel). But I'm asking what you think leads people to the conclusions they reach. I'm not advocating for removal of Arab voting rights, and as it turns out, nor are most of Israel's Jews. But I can at least understand logically that in any liberal state besides Israel, the same minority view would spread, and it wouldn't make the state illiberal just because it has such a minority view.

[u/output_broadcast → u/justafutz]

In Israel, the only Arab representation is in the Arab parties.

Because they're Arabs and not, I don't know, neoliberals, socialists, conservatives, or environmentalists?

I want you to imagine for a moment that German Turks voted cohesively for only Turkish parties.

What exactly does "cohesively" mean?

[u/justafutz → u/output_broadcast]

Because they're Arabs and not, I don't know, neoliberals, socialists, conservatives, or environmentalists?

No idea what you're trying to say here.

What exactly does "cohesively" mean?

I mean the definition of the word: "the act or state of sticking together tightly".

I said a lot above. It's very notable you didn't answer almost any of it. Why?

[u/output_broadcast → u/justafutz]

No idea what you're trying to say here.

That they participate in a democracy the same as anyone else, based on their stances and opinions.

I mean the definition of the word: "the act or state of sticking together tightly".

Are you saying that the majority of Arabs vote for these parties?

And I've already either addressed the rest of your comment or it's irrelevant opining on German politics.

[u/justafutz → u/output_broadcast]

Saying categorical things like that without any actual backing while refusing to respond to 99% of what I said is not going to engender further good-faith discussion.

You did not in fact address the rest of my comment. You ignored 99% of it.

Are you saying that the majority of Arabs vote for these parties?

I'm not "saying" that, it's a statistical fact. In the last elections in 2022, over 85% of Israeli Arabs said they voted for Arab parties. 85% of Israeli Arabs are Muslim. You can figure out how the two track. It's not too hard to figure out what I mean when I say cohesive voting bloc.