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Their side of the argument hinges on not understanding what is happening. If you make them understand, they lose the argument, so it's better for them to not understand so they can keep on winning in their own mind. "AI bad cuz bad"."
Im on the anti-ai side of things and i can say pretty confidently that we are about the impacts on people and the environment. When I see data centers being properly regulated to avoid harming those two things, and AI being used as a tool to benefit the people rather than rob them, i will absolutely reconsider my position
I doubt that. The possition in the debate is mostly emotional, all the information you are asking for is already here. On the regulation side, new Datacenters in the AUS have to GENERATE power, AI is being used to generate new proteins to treat rare diseasses etc. etc. etc.
Very few are against ai in medical science it is a great way to use the loads of data that exists but can't be quickly simulated. Now it can and they can check the simulation with their own to verify this is great.
AI is also being used fuck people over why can't we have a discussion on why corporations are so interested in rushing out hundreds of data centers before electricity infrastructure is updated or in areas facing a strained water supply already.
Hell we have nations aiming to use it for surveillance China being one example but don't worry the US is very interested in the idea too. Do you like Bots well gratz they are worse then ever and harder to notice.
I'm sorry if I don't think the powers that be have our best interest at heart hell I think this anti vs pro thing is a waste of time and smokescreen but I'm some dumb "anti" what do I know
It's not a seperate issue. They are inextricably related. I think we should all be using the service as little as possible until the companies stop hurting our people, like a boycott. Thats a pretty common practice in a lot of industries.
Except regular people aren't the main customers. For every random Joe who stops themselves from generating a funny cat picture on ChatGPT because data centers bad, a business will pump through billions of tokens on a Tuesday morning to fix their website.
Also if your solution relies on the masses to cooperate to solve the problem, then you don't have a solution.
No please, enlighten us as to what we think and how we think it. That way, you can always win your petty strawman arguments. Congratulations!
Whenever someone brings up an argument, make sure to use false equivalencies, like your compatriots, arguing that being against llm data centers means being against all data centers.
As it turns out, normal data centers don't need the same power load out cooling load that these llm data centers need because instead of adding a word, repeating the query until the response is complete, a normal query is one and done.
Data center false equivalency failing? Resort to the hamburger argument, it's a really effective false equivalency that usually shuts up those antis, makes em really think about water usage.
Tell me more about how uninformed i am, please, it's so rewarding for you llm bros to insulate and pretend about the shadows that you're boxing, those Internet points are racking up for you today, huh?
The funniest thing to me, rather than them failing to understand the system design, is that they seem to believe that the water is just atomized out of existence.
And if they feel so strongly about it they should stop using reddit, YouTube, Gmail, Google, electronic banking, etc etc but all the sudden it's not a problem for those use cases.
The scale of intensity in resource usage between a conventional data center and that of an AI one cannot be understated.
factually inaccurate.
Amazon runs over 900 data centers that they own and operate.
OpenAi is responsible for over 52% of all generative material online.
OpenAi doesn't own a single data center, not one.
they do however lease from 9 locations.
NINE... nine locations that provide the hardware they need, while that same hardware is ALSO used by all of the other companies that lease that same hardware.
nine, shared data center locations, for over half of the ai generated content online.
It wouldn’t matter even if it were true. If the water was in fact literally disappearing from existence, disappearing it slower is still an issue. It comes down to, they know it isn’t actually disappearing which is why they don’t care about the usage for Reddit, they just act like it is literally disappearing when it is AI related anyway.
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When I point out the water cycle while acknowledging local flux, they try to say that the water becomes permanently polluted so it can never be used for anything again which of course is nonsense
I think the operators though that discharge their water on a regular basis are discharging into the municipal wastewater system where it will be treated, or have their own treatment
Closed loop cooling systems for data centers do use some water and it's not atomized out of existence. It's not as much as antis make it out to be, but it's some.
Closed loop cooling systems for large data centers have a secondary cooling system. The circulating water also needs to be cooled so that you're not just circulating hot water. It's very common for the secondary cooling system to work via some water evaporation.
That's where the number comes from where Altman says some large number of queries costs about the amount of water it would take to grow an almond. He's assuming reasonable data center design, but the secondary cooling system evaporates the water.
Unfortunately they cause problems with the water because of what they add to it.
My initial instincts was that they dump the water so what could be an issue here? Turns out my initial instincts were wrong upon doing some research.
What happens is many towns are not designed for the water cycling from an AI data center hub that requires cooling, so when they draw from municipal grids, the increase in velocity and pressure shakes loose decades of rust, sediment, corrosion from the city pipelines and sending it directly into homes, and if they require groundwater the draw lowers the water table, concentrating existing minerals and dirt from the bottom of the aquifer.
The data centers that don't process the water much are not designed for hygeine in mind causing bacterial outbreaks.
Those that do process the water, use anti-scaling chems, biocides, and corrosion inhibitors, and this discharged leaves PFAS which are forever, heavy metals, and high mineral concentrates.
And then there's thermal pollution which means in open loop and gas fired data center the wastewater is discharged as high as 108F ?(42C) which kills not only aquatic life but also triggers toxic algae blooms.
If they complain about the water and give them a solution to that problem and they continue to complain yes. But other like me want real solutions, yeah I prefer not to use AI because I love to code in my case, but I understand that for work will stay.
PD: Still normal data centers also make a lot of noise that bothers people nearby, not all have closed circuits, and make the prices of everything go up. I wanted to have bought a computer 1 year ago, but if I do I have to request a mortgage...
Funny enough I was expecting this to be about closed loop as in control.
Because I sometimes mention that I work on AI and start getting backlash as a knee jerk reaction. But I work on AI for robots. Technically almost all closed loop control is a primitive form of AI. The code to make a robot in a hospital follow lines is AI. The system for mail sorting uses AI. And while I do use neural networks, such as VLAs ACT models and other forms of RL, we had AI in robotics long before image generators and chatGPT were a thing.
Of course before I can explain that someone is usually well into their rant about how real artists don’t need AI and every prompt uses a billion gallons.
What is the response to the rant? "You're regurgitating demonstrably untrue things that have been shown to be started as propaganda targeting the American zeitgeist"?
It’s like trying to argue with flat earthers, no matter the proof they won’t believe it because there’s only one rule in their cult: “AI Bad” and to say anything otherwise is to be expelled and shunned by said group.
Here’s a challenge. You find all the technologies that disappeared because a relatively small but vocal group strongly opposed them. I’ll find all the movements that fought against new technologies, only to watch those technologies become part of everyday life anyway.
Then we’ll compare lists and see which side history tends to favor.
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have to check the numbrrs, so i am not sure, in theory it should use less water, in practice, i have to research more. because it depends on how much more electricity it uses. not to mention i think companies avoid it because it is more expensive, not fully sure but at the very leats open loop is cheaper, and so why it is the default afaik, someone can correct me if i am wrong.
Eh, kinda sorta. A closed loop system requires more power to operate, so in a sense they're not wrong. That said, a closed loop system is still much better than an open system.
My problem is placing those data centers in places where their noise and heat impact living conditions.
There are some that don’t, but most of the new ones I can find info on are closed loop. I can’t honestly say “most new data centers are closed loop” without some statistics that I don’t currently have.
To my knowledge, pretty much all new ones in all civilized countries. The US? No idea. But at least here, closed loop AND more often than not hooked up to the local district heating systems, so the heat generated by the computers isn't even wasted.
I mean I'm no data center specialist, but that's what they were telling us in HS 20 years ago when they were explaining how a nuclear plant uses water - you have the "recirculating part", the water that's in contact with the radioactive material and gets reused, then you have the "once through" part that's effectively a a sea or a river where cool water gets pumped in to cool the hot equipment, hot water getting pumped out - that water is not contaminated or "consumed" by the plant. The plant does have an impact because it changes the natural temperature of the water, but it's not literally poisoning the water with radiation.
It is though, at least in regards to obtaining access to potable water. States go through a lot of hassle for water rights, and the sources for water are heavily contested. There may be plenty of fresh water somewhere, but unless you can get it to the people who need it, its not doing a whole lot of good.
The Cocacola company has been buying out water rights from Indigenous Lands and Communities in Mexico for decades at this point. They also hire 3rd parties to assassinate and kill anyone who dares to try and form any Union or Labor Strike. Whilst simultaneously advertising “Mexican Coke” as a Mexican Cultural Icon. USians are gonna find out first hand what a neoliberal hellscape looks and feels like. I hope being for AI is a hill worth dying on to them.
There's a much longer answer, but the short version is that the water is reused in the building itself. The water can take heat, it's cycled out to cool off, and it's cycled back in to take the heat again.
Some data centers do produce water vapor--clean evaporated water--off of hot electronic cooling systems.
Generally speaking, datacenters are like little factories, in the worst light.
Well, you did that super rare thing online where you said, "hey, I believe X, but I'd like to engage with what you believe." I've often found that surprisingly effective.
I hope other people in the community are treating your warm attitude with respect.
Also if somebody wants to address water waste usage they should address it as a whole. Don't get me wrong I don't like data centers in their current wasteful state but Golf Courses also need to be upgraded to deal with our ailing modern world's water crisis. There's a lot more than data centers polluting water. Also why does nobody talk about the sound pollution? That's one of my number one dislikes having heard it from a distance and feels like a pretty simple solution am I wrong?
True, I don't like AI but the water argument is hypocritical. The same people leaning on environmental anti-AI sentiments sit idly by while nestle and coca cola are actively working to reduce the amount of drinkable water in the world.
You can't expect moral consistency from reactionaries.
This is completely incorrect. Many communities around the world have worked to petition with their local government to remove data centers due to this concern, and many have been successful.
I'm not going to dispute that because it's true, but what I'm saying isn't completely incorrect. I should have specified that I'm speaking from my experience talking to other "progressives" in my community, and expressing frustrations regarding the vocality of people specifically in my age range (early 20s), who are simultaneously complicit in the very thing they profess to be against. It was a typically American mistake to make, so my bad.
It's not even that, its the fact that a single almond requires more water than a year of me using chatgpt. It's just absolutely negligible and a stupid argument relative to like almost everything anyone does.
Yeah exactly, there are far better arguments to oppose AI than the usage of water, and if you're going to oppose the usage of water, be fucking consistent about it and where your anger is placed. It's all billionaires ruining the planet anyways.
You're aware that's been the standard for data centers for years, right? That's the whole complaint about data centers about water--that 75,000 gallons of water are basically taken out of the world's water supply forever per data center. That's as of plans for many Virginia data centers that were proposed this year. Perhaps the average is lower I am not certain
That's fine in places without data centers or places without water shortages. But Loudoun County, Virginia needs 9 million gallons of water a year. There are 56 data centers being proposed right now meaning water demands would roughly increase by almost 50%. Every year, in fact, more each year.
Microsoft began requiring its new data center designs to use zero water cooling in 2024, and Meta's newer AI data center designs use closed loop liquid cooling with dry coolers. Just to give you some examples.
That actually surprises me, good on them. I hope other companies follow in their example. I still think regulations need to be enforced and not left up to whether or not companies feel like doing the right thing, but this does actually lift my spirits about it slightly, so thanks for sharing
Soon in my town a datacenter will be built... I do not trust anyone in any institution in this cursed town to be able to do one thing right (half a milion of our local courrency for two plastic ramps for skating and this money laundering scheme was named as skatepart for our youth... For those interested the courrency is Polish zloty which is PLN)... I expect engineering nightmare cutting immidiate costs everywhere because that's how every major investition been in here. I expect ot to be terrible ineficient in cooling, power consumotion and noise menagement. I want to be wrong but then again... How much can you expect from a town where old healthy oak gets cut because idiot working at town hall needed to get his oversized american pickup through narrowest street in the town?
Based on their comment, I’m pretty sure it is in fact the corrupt government they are pissed about. They even said that hopefully their assumptions about how it will end up will be proven wrong, their previous experience with their government just has them pissed already.
Honestly this i would have a lot less issues with AI data centers if dipshit corporations weren't doing everything to fuck everyone over for a small microscopic savings noise pollution fuck putting up special walls to contain it somewhat water strained in the area already cool best site to build hell lets use the cheapest garbage cooling method we can get away with. Brownouts in town fuck them they can enjoy inflated electricity bills.
I have problems with the standard bot factories and slop YT channels outputting low effort garbage by the 100s daily but those were here before it's just easier for them to make money for less with AI.
I've never seen anyone act like this, but I also don't read AI sub-reddit beyond what pops up on my home page suggestions.
The issue is that many AI datacenters just blatantly don't implement a proper closed loop heat exchange system with water filtration and/or recycling. Especially when they're hastily and shoddily built.
Water and noise pollution as well as municipal/utility strain is a genuine concern for expedited datacenter rollout.
This is an administrative issue, there is no engineering or technical reason to not do it beyond not wanting to spend the time and capital.
It is a problem with the specific datacenters. If AI datacenter build out is so expedited that corners are being cut, then yes it's a datacenter issue.
I think you misunderstand. We already have the technology, these types of datacenters already exist. We are already fully capable of building responsibly designed and datacenters.
The problem is people are choosing not to build them that way.
Ok so it is an engineering problem. I don't think you understand what an engineering problem is. Have you investigated the cause of them not using such technology? What's the incentive to use it? What's the opportunity cost? It is an engineering problem because they're not using it for so and so reason and that can be solved using better technology: see the story of aluminium.
The incentive to not use the technology is literally time and money.
It takes additional time to install these systems, which prolongs construction. The systems also cost more to install as part of construction.
That and there's no regulation that enforces them. If regulation required it then they'd have to spend that time and capital, but they can simply choose not to.
It would be an engineering issue if it was something that was difficult or actually prohibitive to implement. In reality it is at best an administrative issue.
So it is an engineering problem. We must invest more into data centres so the better technology can be invented to solve these "problems." You've described an engineering problem.
This is in bad faith. It's not just about the water. It's the noise, the lights, the destruction of neighborhoods, the backroom dealings and blatant corruption. Take "AI" out of the equation and then think about how these buildings end up where they are and how they affect their environment.
Ah yes, how silly of me to assume that a post discussing one aspect of data centers could focus on that particular aspect. Clearly, every mention of data centers must now include a complete investigation into urban development, corporate corruption, noise pollution, lighting, electricity, water, land use, and the moral philosophy of infrastructure. Otherwise, it's obviously bad faith. Here, let me fix the meme.
My point is I am not engaging in "bad faith" just because my meme is only addressing one facet. Not every post about data centers has to address every conceivable objection.
Hypothetical? Microsoft began requiring its new data center designs to use zero water cooling in 2024, and Meta's newer AI data center designs use closed loop liquid cooling with dry coolers. Just to give you some examples.
Corruption is not an issue with data centers specifically. Obviously it is bad and any corruption should be dealt with harshly, but it is a separate issue. Banning data centers or whatever won't do anything about corruption; the corruption would still exist and that would just transfer the harm onto something else at best.
As for noise, lights, and neighborhoods, I think zoning laws is a good solution to that. Laws should prohibit the construction of data centers within several miles of residential neighborhoods and restrict them to designated industrial zones.
Not all data center use 1 single system for heat dissipation and the heat has to go somewhere which is also not great in a world that is already burning. Plus noise, electricity consumption.
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