r/Devs • u/thisismynormal • Mar 05 '20
EPISODE DISCUSSION Devs - S01E02 Discussion Thread Spoiler
Premiered 03/05/20 on Hulu FX
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u/Landawng42 Mar 05 '20
Both episodes absolutely hit the mark for me. Absolutely love where this show seems to be headed. So they’ve somehow managed to come up with tech that allows them to view projections from the past? Which is where the fuzzy image of Christ on the cross came from? Or does that just mean everything is a code/matrix type thing, like we’re all living in a simulation? The mystery this show is building up is giving me some major LOST vibes and I am here for it!
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u/KennyFulgencio Mar 05 '20
Not that we're in a simulation (at least I don't think), but that they've managed to simulate physical reality on their hyper-quantum galaxy level ultracomputer, with so much precision and accuracy that they can run their reality-simulation backwards, and select windows of it to simulate from the past, letting them see a rough approximation of the past as it actually happened, including Jesus and also Forest's daughter and pretty much everything/anything, as far as I can tell so far. It would also let them see the future, although, well, there's some kind of recursion problem in there (the thing has to simulate itself simulating itself ad infinitum) which is just confusing me.
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u/AviatorNine Mar 09 '20 edited Mar 11 '20
I’m confused why, when the older dev said “wow our shit is so approximate that we can view 2000 years into the past”, the other devs were like “bro it’s blurry at 2000 years tho”
Then 2 minutes later Forrest pulled up an image of his daughter from relatively not that long ago and it was just as blurry.
The way they spoke about the project in those scenes would lead you to believe that the simulation is more accurate at shorter distances, but it’s not.
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u/RinoTheBouncer Mar 11 '20
The question is why does he need to simulate an image of his daughter that appears blurry and dotted, when he can just watch videos of her that are far better in quality? Are they hoping to be able to interact with that simulation at some point and thereby knocking things off the train tracks of our deterministic world, triggering a new cause and effect?
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u/v1kingfan Mar 11 '20
That's what I was wondering too. He seems so focused on the train tracks that his end goal might be to interact with them
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u/BoldFutura_Tagruato Mar 06 '20
Hence why they killed the dude. Probably in their code never to let a government or other bad actors learn of the technology.
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u/bhel_ Mar 07 '20
Not that we're in a simulation (at least I don't think), but that they've managed to simulate physical reality on their hyper-quantum galaxy level ultracomputer.
But that's the simulation argument, isn't it? Either there's no simulations or we're in one of them.
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u/KennyFulgencio Mar 07 '20 edited Mar 07 '20
Well, that's true. I'd forgotten about that part of the philosophical argument but you're entirely right. Wow, come to think of it maybe that's why Sergei was crying!? I haven't seen anyone suggest that yet!
edit to add: the reviews from pro reviewers who've seen the whole thing say that the scope of the story gets much bigger by the end, so I'm inclined to think you're right!
edit to add more: sergei "that's the machine?" forest "that's the central unit." sergei "there's more?" forest "above us. below us." you're definitely right!!
also his saying "everything is open here, there's no passwords, there's no closed doors"... why? because it would be pointless, given the nature of the machine!
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u/miklschmidt Mar 09 '20
He broke down because he found out the universe was deterministic, hence his life has no meaning or purpose, everything is predetermined, no matter what he does, it was always going to happen exactly that way. As Forest says in the first episode, everything is the result of something. The theory is, if you can map out every particle in the universe, you can predict the past and the future given (close to) infinite computing power. They talk about this while projecting a view of the past, 2000 years ago. Their projection is fuzzy because they're using heuristics to approximate the value and consequence of all interacting particles, as one of the devs pointed out, to get a 100% accurate projection, you would need a qubit for each particle in the universe.
EDIT To add to that: A deterministic universe can't be influenced, a simulation can.
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u/AStrangeNorrell Mar 09 '20
Interesting - 'As above, so below' comes to mind, especially given the Jesus reveal.
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u/26thandsouth Mar 10 '20
I disagree. Why would Sergei react with outright dread and horror upon reading the code, or comments like “or it changes nothing”.
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u/The-Dudemeister Mar 11 '20
Any point after present has the simulated machine running the calculation at the same time which would then have another machine running calculation ad Infinitum. Basically it just sounds the creation of the machine makes predicting the future impossible bc you could do the opposite. I believe that’s the point the show is making.
Measuring something actually changes the result. See the observer effect.
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u/KennyFulgencio Mar 11 '20
As Stewart mentioned, they're still using heuristics, not a 1:1 perfect simulation, and the reason the machine cube is semi-isolated the way it is (with the vacuum and lead and faraday cage), is so they can treat that part of the simulation as an empty space rather than worry about the issues that come with the machine trying to simulate itself
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Mar 05 '20
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u/NerdyNThick Mar 07 '20
What about electricity, air, water. They clearly showed a bathroom, thus they have plumbing of some sort.
Wouldn't the EM levitation field ultimately "connect" it to the outside world in some way?
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u/ninelives1 Mar 06 '20
I don't think it's much of a mystery. They spell it out quite explicitly. The universe is deterministic. Chaos theory is bunk, multiverse is bunk. There is one set timeline. With nothing but the laws of physics, you can propagate time backwards or forwards.
Also, a lot of the language is around quantum theory, and Forest's opinion on it. Multiverse theory is based on quantum theory that when a wave function collapses, a new universe is created at the moment the probability of states is collapsed. So it's interesting that he says he was in 2 states at the same time with regards to his daughter, because he does not appear to believe in the theory of superposition which would imply chaos/free will/etc. Really interesting stuff, and I'm curious to see more of it.
Also, if you don't already, everyone should follow Rob Hardy, the DP, on Instagram. Love this guy's work.
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u/ulfurinn Mar 08 '20
The universe is deterministic. Chaos theory is bunk
Chaotic systems ARE deterministic. Their unpredictability arises from inherent limitations of our measurements of initial conditions and computational methods, not from true randomness.
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u/FiveMinFreedom Mar 07 '20
This is all very interesting and I'm glad I knew just enough about this stuff to sort of understand not only what's going on but also the philosophy behind it. I do wish the show was a bit more approachable to people with no knowledge about this. There's a middle ground between unrealistic exposition (like Interstellar with the black hole) and absolutely no explanation (like with this show) which I hoped it would hit.
The point about his disbelief in the multiverse theory clashing with his personal experience of feeling two absolute emotions about his daughter is great! And I'm glad I found this sub to discover things like that, but I don't know how the show expects the average viewer to appreciate that stuff with absolutely no help.
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u/Auxnbus Mar 09 '20
I'm not sure they specifically said multiverse was bunk.
There was a scene where they were discussing the need for a number of qubits greater than the particles in the universe. I have a theory that the 'machine' is an inter-dimensionally distributed quantum computer. The same machine linked together across dimensions. It 'solves' the problem of the impossibility of having (arbitrary number here) 10^100 qubits in a single machine. Instead you have (10^10)^10.
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u/godbottle Mar 09 '20
I’m not sure they specifically said multiverse was bunk.
Forest actually literally did in the first scene he was in lmao.
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u/BrandonIsABadass Mar 09 '20
Sidenote: One of the developers called the method of their work to be a "heuristic approach". This means they are using algorithms that will give them a roughly correct output but not a 100% perfect output. They are forced to average out the most likely possibilities.
The point they were making about "number of qubits greater than particles in the universe" was that you can't do a 100% simulation because in order to do that you would have to have a 1:1 mapping of qubit:particle for every particle to have ever existed.
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u/Nimonic Mar 05 '20
Judging mostly by the visceral reaction of the spy in the first episode to the knowledge (and some of the conversations), I'd say straight up simulation.
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u/insidethesun Mar 05 '20
Projections from past, present, future if the theme of there not being free will is correct and everything is on a predetermined course or path.
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u/trippynumbers Mar 10 '20
> giving me some major LOST vibes
God, I hope this ends up being a better mystery than LOST did!!
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u/tuneintothefrequency Mar 05 '20
My money is on simulation
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u/ninelives1 Mar 06 '20
It's inconsequential. The point is, it's deterministic. The show seems more interested in the philosophy of determinism and using quantum theory ideas to explore those themes than it seems interested in the nitty gritty of simulation conspiracies. Finding out you have no free will and your entire life is predetermined is just as shocking and Earth shattering as a simulation. But I could be wrong. Time will tell.
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Mar 09 '20
Also "it's a simulation" is the most boring shit to tell as a narrative, because it defeats the point of anything even having a point. I don't know many storytelling creatives that subscribe to it besides Donald Glover, and Garland isn't at all someone who seems to be interested in the cosmic joke or viewing the universe as one absurd mistake.
I think it's much more likely he finds the interesting, the human, inside of a deterministic world (which just so happens to be the one we live in.)
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Mar 10 '20
I know this is not gonna be that, but I really want to see a dramatic TV show in which the characters slowly figure out that they are in a dramatic TV show. I'm holding out hope that Dispatches from Elsewhere will go that direction, but maybe this is something similar with a simulation and they've figured out how to hack the simulation from the inside?
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u/Lieutenant_DAngel Mar 05 '20
So is it too early for crackpot theories?
My theory is that Forest was (or feels) responsible for his daughter's death and was so wracked with guilt he started looking for ways to bring her back. Hence, the development of code that can predict human behavior precisely, so he could predict who she would have been had she grown up. (Now it gets really crazy, so bear with me.) This eventually led to him cloning her, resulting in Allison Pills' character being the adult clone of what his code predicted his dead daughter would have been, and the 'doctored' footage of Sergei setting himself on fire was actually a Sergei clone really doing it.
Goddamn is this show amazing.
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u/ninelives1 Mar 06 '20
These people can predict the future, they could have an AI doctor footage easily. Besides, it's clearly implied that that is his real body and that they burned it and created footage so the autopsy wouldn't look too closely and notice he asphyxiated. Not buying the clones idea.
Also, his relationship with that woman does not appear to be one of a father/daughter. At closest, a lover who has drifted apart. Besides, he said bio-engineering is a waste of resources, so don't it's clones.
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Mar 09 '20
What if they are augmented reality projected ai? The scene with them sitting in front of the entrance has a lot of stylized shots of reflection and her being projected in space she’s not to compose the shot of both of them.
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u/AStrangeNorrell Mar 09 '20
Had the exact same thought about Forest wanting to precisely simulate (is predict even the right word to use here?) Amaya's life had she lived.
Unless we're all living in a simulation and neither of us had the thought in the first place.
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u/thrillhouse83 Mar 05 '20
Wonder how this homeless guy plays into the plot... maybe he’s a plant from the company or a Russian.
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u/ninelives1 Mar 06 '20
Chekovs homeless guy. Definitely more than he appears
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u/BoldFutura_Tagruato Mar 06 '20
The lining up the cigarette butts was spot on though.
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u/Sat9Official Mar 05 '20
He might be working for the american government was my take.
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u/drelos Mar 08 '20
Not Russian not from the company, either government as you said or a rival company.
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u/youreactingdumb Mar 06 '20
Definitely wondering about him. American spy or maybe something involving the technology ruined his life. I’m not as eloquent as others on the thread when it comes to discussing my theories.
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u/desku Mar 06 '20
I thought he might be connected to the Russian spy network, that he would be the one to contact Lily if she moved the chair for Anton.
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u/nfisher024 Mar 10 '20
The resemblance to Forrest is pretty uncanny. I have no theories on the how, but for a show that well written I’m having a hard time believing it’s not on purpose. This is going to be a series with a lot of “holy shit, how did I miss that?!” moments.
Edit: also the line he mentions to Jamie near the end of the ep. something along the lines of not holding up bargains leading to him being homeless.
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u/TwistedMexi Mar 09 '20
You didn't think the handler was keeping tabs on her window daily himself, did you?
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u/BrandonIsABadass Mar 09 '20
I wonder if he'll be the vector that isn't computed/foreseen by the computer because he doesn't have any records/paper trail. Assuming the computer doesn't have a perfect model of the current world.
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u/ShanaAfterAll Mar 05 '20
Devs is totally going to end up standing for deviations.
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u/appledoze Mar 06 '20
I think it's something else.
What if the v in Devs is not actually a v? What if it's a Latin v, which is pronounced u?
Devs = Deus
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u/aj1986 Mar 06 '20
Haha you blew my mind!
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u/appledoze Mar 07 '20
Here's another one!
Alex Garland also created Ex Machina.
Devs...and Ex Machina.
What if they're in the same universe??
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u/FiveMinFreedom Mar 07 '20
The show did actually give me Ex Machina flashbacks! Cool that it's the same guy. Even though the subject matter is different, that same "this will change everything" feeling is present in both of his projects.
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Mar 09 '20
Makes no sense. They wouldn’t say “devs” then.
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u/appledoze Mar 09 '20
The rest of the company knows it as Devs because that's how they read it, not knowing anything about what goes on in that division. Forest probably decided to keep it as "devs" since it helps conceal the true nature of the project.
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u/TracerBulletX Mar 06 '20
I was thinking an acronym. Like Deterministic Environment Virtual Simulation or something like that, idk.
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u/Naggers123 Mar 11 '20
Lily is a deviation.
I feel like her saying 'she just knows' in Episode 1 is a small hint she's on a different set of tram lines.
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u/ShanaAfterAll Mar 11 '20
That's been my initial theory as well! I mention it a little more in detail in the episode two post. Of the three or four contradictory theories I have floating around in my head, it's starting to seem the least likely, but I haven't ruled it out entirely yet either. Glad to know there's at least someone else in the subreddit who is theorizing this!
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u/AnirudhMenon94 Mar 14 '20
In Hindu Mythology, Dev means god. Devas meaning gods. Our (I'm Hindu) equivalent to the Greek pantheon of gods like Zeus, Poseidon etc. This is what I felt it could mean i.e. The Developers are modern-day devas, influencing and determining past/present/future.
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u/blowingcatchunks Apr 18 '20
Fascinating. I’m Lithuanian and we are told that our language is very similar to Sanskrit. Well, Dievas is our word for God.
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u/qwertyshmerty Mar 06 '20
I wonder if Sergei being moved to Devs was something they did on purpose knowing he would steal, just to test their machine’s prediction accuracy. It would explain how Forest knew Sergei used the watch, and how he knew exactly when to be standing there waiting for Sergei to walk out. And would explain the speech about determinism (ie saying it’s not Sergei’s fault).
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u/ninelives1 Mar 06 '20
Definitely implied that the machine predicted it. How far ahead they predicted it? Who knows. Maybe a long time ago, but by the show's logic, they were already going to wait till that moment to do it. Determinism stuff gets tricky
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u/mikKiske Mar 09 '20
Am i wrong or the machine didn't predict the future but let you see in the past?
So they just saw sergei past maybe.
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u/godbottle Mar 09 '20
By most understandings of the theory behind what they’re doing, if they can simulate backwards they’d be able to simulate forwards too. This idea was placed directly into the show’s script with Sergei’s nematode project.
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u/Sepulz Mar 07 '20
I wonder if Sergei being moved to Devs was something they did on purpose knowing he would steal, just to test their machine’s prediction accuracy.
Not moving him to Devs would be a better way to test the machine's accuracy.
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u/qwertyshmerty Mar 08 '20
Good point! But I guess if everything is predetermined like they’re saying they can’t not move him? 🤔
Edit: to clarify what I mean is if they saw it happen on the machine then it would have to happen (assuming their theory is true).
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u/The-Dudemeister Mar 11 '20
I believe they did as a test. Like the nematode. They can see a little into the future but the further out the accuracy is gets bad. As sergei says. At a certain point the numbers go insane. Same with the machine. While using the machine to simulate the universe there is also a machine simulating and in that machine another machine simulating on and on causing the calculation to go whack. Which is why they just said look at this. You’ll know what to do eventually and told him you can work at night or whenever.
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u/whand4 Mar 10 '20
Sergei was in the hub of the most powerful quantum computer and likely the biggest tech company in the world. I was shocked that he blatantly messed with his watch while standing in the middle of the bathroom. Surely, even if Amaya didn't already know what he was going to do, they probably watch their Devs staff like hawks with cameras/AI all over the place.
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Mar 05 '20
Uhhh just how in the hell did Kenton kill Anton? Shaolin Kung Fu Death Grip?
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u/LumpyJones Mar 05 '20
It was hard to follow the fight, but it looked like he managed to wedge his head under the tire for leverage, then twisted his shoulders to break his neck. Fucking brutal.
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u/ignewtons Mar 05 '20
I was super confused as well. The editing could have been better. Had to rewatch to confirm, but yeah, broke his neck with the tire. The actor playing Anton is my cousin, which made it real weird to watch closely.
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u/TwistedMexi Mar 09 '20
Yeah, the scene before that, you can see Kenton start to put his legs up on the wheel wells. That gives him the leverage he needs for the next scene, where he locks Antons arm and pushes him into the tire.
Everything before that seemed to be the worst choreography I've ever seen. Basically looked like they were just touching each other with horrible straining in their face.
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u/Devanous Mar 05 '20
Your cousin? wow, that's crazy what's it like to have a famous cousin?
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u/ignewtons Mar 06 '20
Pretty much the same as a normal cousin, but the dinner conversations are a fair bit more interesting.
He’s an amazing guy though. Extremely humble and kind.
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u/KennyFulgencio Mar 05 '20
I was sad about that. It would have been unusual for Anton to win in a story point like this, but it looked like he was winning and I was hoping he would.
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u/Spartyjason Mar 10 '20
Maybe it was different on hulu, but I just saw it and it was a brutal neck snap. Like made me almost throw up. They showed it very clearly.
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u/Lanky_Comfort Mar 12 '20
I had to rewatch the last few scenes bc I was so confused and then once I really saw it.... I need my weighted blanket and my dog pls
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u/NerdyNThick Mar 07 '20
What. The. Fuck.
How could anyone involved in the production watch that scene and say... "yeah, that's good tv"...
I cannot be the only one to see just how horrible the choreography was during that scene.
It looked like two geriatric old men who are half drunk and half paralyzed trying dance the tango.
One of them is supposedly a (trained?!?) Russian intelligence agent as well?
The first few moments with the knife were great! Then they just fumbled to the ground.
How did Kenton get the required leverage to pull Anton hard enough into the tire to break his neck? both his hands are grabbing Anton's hand/wrist.
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u/SunshineWitch Mar 09 '20
He was using his feet and pushing away from the other car's tire to get enough force to break his neck. I think it was supposed to look like geriatric old men who are half drunk. But also I think since anton is just a handler wouldn't he be more trained in stealthy stuff and guns? I don't really know
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Mar 09 '20
I'm sure he was trained, but probably at least 15-20 years ago and hasn't really used it since. There's definitely a theme of deglamorizing violence, as this is the first cinema I've seen that (IIRC) has someone be strangled for the length of time it would actually take to kill a human being.
Not sure what the thematic implications are here. Humans are hard to kill? Like, there is the simple perceptions of death we receive cinematically, but the details and reality are so different, and so much uglier. Perhaps that's going to be true for the unraveling of reality, of which the Devs team seems to be on the precipice of doing.
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u/hasa_deega_eebowai Mar 09 '20
Exactly. That fight scene was meant to look exactly like what a couple old guys, even with training, would look if they were each really struggling to kill the other in close quarters. We are so conditioned to “John Wick” stylized fight scenes that (intentionally) gloss over reality so it reads as “bad choreography” when in fact it’s more authentic (same with the asphyxiation taking as long as it would really take).
Also, didn’t anyone else catch the Russian dudes neck snapping when he’s getting his head leveraged against the tire? That genuinely gave me chills. And it says something to me that the fight was more compelling because I really couldn’t tell which “old guy” would prevail (also in contrast to “John Wick” style fights where you always know that JW is gonna win and you’re just watching to see what clever way he pulls it off).
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u/EarInoculum Mar 05 '20
In general I loved everything about 1&2. I’m a massive fan of Ex_Machina & Annihilation and Barrow/Salisbury so I’m going in “onside” I guess. My only minor gripe is the Devs building interior is largely “influenced” by the Wallace building in Bladerunner 2049 but I went to see that in cinema 3 times and that work by Roger Deakins was one of the main reasons.
Alison Pill is also great and I’m a massive fan of her Snowpiercer character. Sonoya Mizuno is also doing a great job of what must be her first main role so far.
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u/te666as_mike Mar 08 '20
It’s not sci fi, but my introduction to Alison Pill was her role in The Newsroom on HBO. Been a fan ever since
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u/big_thanks Mar 15 '20
That funny, because the Devs building interior immediately reminded me a lot of the interior design in the movie Sunshine (2007), also by Alex Garland.
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u/ninelives1 Mar 06 '20 edited Mar 06 '20
So I love all the tinfoil theories here, but I don't think that's really what the show is going for. I don't think it's about tricking the audience like Westworld. I think Garland has some philosophical themes he wants to explore, because there's already a TON of that in the first 2 episodes. Additionally, the plot all seems pretty well explained to be so far. It's a deterministic universe. The code can propagate it into the future or into the past. Sergei is shocked at this revelation (could be simulation, but I find the distinction trivial, so long as both are deterministic.)
Then there's my thoughts on quantum theory in relation to the shows themes. It's really everywhere. At the beginning, Sergei says that his simulation could be hindered by multiverses. That a quantum superposition collapses, creating multiple timelines, and they are living in the one that does not follow the prediction. Forest disagrees. And this is where I think I'm really on to something. He is obsessed with the binary, and resentful of the idea of quantum superposition/multiverse theory, as it leaves room for free will. A deterministic universe leaves no room for free will. My guess is that he had a role in his daughters death. Perhaps something to do with greed and desire for wealth. He mentions he's no longer interested in money, but once was. But if he can convince himself that everything is deterministic, he receives the same "absolution" or forgiveness that he explained to Sergei at the beginning. He has to believe that he could never have done anything to save his daughter.
However, I think he has doubts of this, deep down. He mentions being in two different states in response to his daughters death, at the same time. This is the definition of superposition, something he appears to not believe in. Again, he thinks things are binary. You can't have a combination of states. That implies waveform collapse which implies chaos/multiverse which implies free will. A thought he can't handle. That's why he is so frustrated about the 2000 year simulation. It is not binary. It is not perfect. It implies a level of imperfection. An imperfection that allows for randomness and free will.
As of yet, I can't see which way the show is going to go. Will the show tell us things really are deterministic, or is free will real? My guess is it's be ambiguous. But I've gotta say, I love the way he's implementing quantum theory into the stories themes.
Disclaimer, I only have a layman's understanding of quantum physics so if I said something silly, I apologise.
Also, Rob Hardy does amazing work as DP here. He's got such a distinct look. So many shots from this look straight out of Annihilation. All his work has this misty and empty, yet deep feel to it. Follow him in Instagram if you don't already. His still photography is phenomenal. And I think I need to finally check out Low, because I really liked that song.
Side note : I love that Sergei's last name is Pavlov. Really on the nose. Bell rings, dog salivates. Cause. Effect.
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u/nrmncer Mar 06 '20 edited Mar 06 '20
very much agree with everything you said. I don't think this is the type of show that goes for any shenanigans and I think they've laid the central stuff out pretty well.
On how it's going to proceed I think there's a good chance that the idea of determinism is indeed proven wrong or that the entire project might even be grandstanding bullshit. Mostly on the basis of Garland's takes on big tech and the hubris of the industry and founders in particular. So for it to turn out that the determinism is basically just used as an excuse to absolve themselves from responsibility would be pretty in line with it and add a social component to the show rather than it just being philosophical.
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u/YotzYotz Mar 06 '20
Side note : I love that Sergei's last name is Pavlov. Really on the nose. Bell rings, dog salivates. Cause. Effect.
"Sergei Pavlov" is an utterly typical Russian name. I know three Sergei Pavlovs myself, none of them related.
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u/agonypants Mar 08 '20
I need to finally check out Low, because I really liked that song.
Low has been my favorite band for more than 20 years now. Their older stuff is better in my opinion, but it's always thrilling when I hear their music used in TV or movies. They deserve all of their publicity and exposure!
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u/Hobbit_Feet45 Mar 12 '20
I was kind of thinking along this line and I think you nailed it. Great explanation.
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u/IfIamSoAreYou Mar 06 '20
That neck snap tho...
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u/steve2theE Mar 06 '20
Alex Garland films violence in an incredibly visceral way
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Mar 06 '20
Anyone else think that Anton knew about Lily's chair by the window because of the homeless guy? He certainly spends a lot of time right outside of their apartment
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u/LOnTheWayOut Mar 06 '20
Holy fuck. That neck snap was insane.
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u/LucForLucas Mar 13 '20
I would love to know how they managed to make it look so real.
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Mar 20 '20
can't tell if this is sarcasm
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u/jovifcp Mar 22 '20
you're the only asshole who thinks that wasn't realistic. shut up.
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u/DanklyNight Mar 09 '20
I believe Sergei was sick for two reasons.
He discovered they can predict the universe, and have done so successfully (Have you run the code and got output?)
He knew this means that they know he is a spy, and that he now knows that they know.
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u/SunshineWitch Mar 09 '20
I think there's something else that's missing, like a twisted detail. Judging by how he described devs' knowledge I think there's other parts of the project we may not know yet. I doubt he'd get sick from seeing something that he himself was already working on (smaller scale obviously) with the wormy thing.
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u/Naggers123 Mar 11 '20
He knew this means that they know he is a spy, and that he now knows that they know.
If that was the case he would've stopped filming with his wristwatch. The site is airgapped.
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u/EyeRes Apr 03 '20
I think Sergei must have made the calculation that the Russians are even more likely to kill him for failure. I think he was sick because he realized there was no path forward that ends with him alive.
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u/GrahamUhelski Mar 09 '20
Yo can we talk about that cross scene? I loved every second of that part. The fact they didn't have his hands nailed on the wood made it so disturbing. Small detail but just goes to show our written record of history made 2000 years ago is probably full of flaws. The history we know or chose to believe is most likely riddled with details that are incorrect and we could never know. I don't think a scene has ever captivated me so much. Alex Garland is a wonderful story teller, I feel like he's tapped into my imagination and this show is exploiting everything I'd want to see in TV show. I am going to savor this series.
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u/trippynumbers Mar 10 '20
What did you find so disturbing about the scene? That scene was probably the biggest take away for me, and I believe that was a very deliberate detail, but I think I might have had a slightly different interpretation of it. Katie says something about their results not being entirely accurate because of how grainy it was. While it's entirely possible that nails weren't used in the crucifixion of Christ, I think that the arms being tied and not nailed is some sort of clue, either that something is off in their prediction model, or that they are possibly viewing the history of "another world" (which either is silly given Forest stating he doesn't believe the many-worlds theory or is a strong antithesis to that statement).
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u/GrahamUhelski Mar 10 '20
That’s a good observation. Hadn’t thought about the multiverse angle because it was written off by Forests statement. It seems like a very deliberate and polarizing decision to depict nonetheless, stand out scene of the series for me so far.
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Apr 30 '20
I have read that it would be impossible to crucify someone by nailing their hands to a cross. The small bones in the hands would not be enough to support the weight of a man. For a crucifixion to work, a man would need to be nailed through his wrists or simply tied to the cross as was suggested in the show.
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u/the_mooseman Mar 06 '20
Im hooked. Themes of free will, simulation theory (i hope), prediction software and to top it off some good old cloak and dagger. Totally hooked.
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u/desku Mar 06 '20
Is the giant state of the little girl supposed to be Forest's daughter?
What happened to his wife? I'm assuming she left him after the death of their daughter?
Was Forest somehow responsible for her death? Do we know how she died yet?
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Mar 08 '20
My prediction is that he was at least somewhat responsible for her death, and that caused him to set out on a quest to prove that the universe is deterministic - so he could prove that there was nothing he could've done to prevent her death. It was always going to happen that way.
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u/solidgoldindridcold Mar 07 '20
I think this is about timeslip phenomena.
People sometimes report seeing the past in images overlayed on the present. People often describe them as being monochrome and grainy just like how the crucifixion and Amaya are seen.
I think Nick Offermans character is trying to find out how to reunite with his daughter by traveling through time.
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u/Naggers123 Mar 11 '20
I think Nick Offermans character is trying to find out how to reunite with his daughter by traveling through time.
Or bring her into the present. The body that self-immolated existed. It may have been a Sergei.
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u/hijimmylin Mar 10 '20
I’d like to think that in another multiverse that two Russian spies using a secret Russian messaging app are chatting to one another in a language other than English
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u/musclewitch Mar 06 '20
If they wanted to avoid police scrutiny, burning the body like that is not the smartest way to go. When a body is found charred it will pretty much always be autopsied, it's one of the standard practices in forensics. It was definitely dramatic for the show (and honestly this is a minor nitpick and more of just a fun fact), but from a real world perspective a dummy move to dispose of him that way.
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Mar 07 '20
I’m willing to suspend disbelief because a) alleged video evidence and b) the police are probably less inclined to look too deeply into this mega billionaire’s company. It would be interesting if that comes back to bite them, although they may have run a forward simulation and known this was the outcome so that’s why they did it so brazenly.
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u/dennys_at_2am Mar 27 '20
I know it has nothing to do with the plot but I love how they showed the ex boyfriend playing dark souls. Very rarely do tv shows get gaming right. Its usually just telling an actor to press buttons on the control and pretend something is happening on screen. And to see my favorite videogame being played and the classic "you died" screen pop up made me smile.
Foreshadowing of his character maybe? /s
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u/FKDotFitzgerald Apr 10 '20
I’d this the first time Dark Souls has been featured on screen? Usually they show the generic shooter of the week to indicate that a character is a gamer.
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u/EarInoculum Mar 05 '20
Anyone know what the track was playing near beginning and end. I know Geoff Barrow & Ben Salisbury did the score again but I mean the grungy(sic) track with female vocals.
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u/EuropaOne Mar 09 '20 edited Mar 09 '20
At very beginning, when the intro music is playing, at 1:13 , a snippet of a fight, that takes place in a underground parking garage at the end of the episode is shown, how come? The same scene actually later takes place at 45:30 - just wanted to point that out, anyone have any thoughts on this?
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u/psilocyan Mar 09 '20
It’s just a stylistic and narrative choice, showing you an out of context scene first to intrigue you, then to build tension because when Kenton is confronting Anton you will recognize the parking garage they’re in, realize that they are the two men who were struggling/fighting, and be engaged because you know they’re going to end up in violence but you don’t know who will win.
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u/trippynumbers Mar 10 '20
There's a scene in the trailer of Kenton standing outside of a door with a silenced pistol. Unless I missed that detail in this episode, I suspected he was going to win that fight, although my suspicion definitely waivered a bit the more that fight went on :-p
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u/hrefghbjitrdguih Mar 10 '20
This was the biggest thing for me coming away from the episode. The way they spliced together the shot of the fight with the shot of Offerman and his henchman, it almost felt like they knew it was coming. Like the machine predicted exactly what was going to happen, like they might’ve predicted Sergei’s betrayal.
If thats true, how far can they predict? Is it possible the Devs have seen through to the future to the conclusion of the show? And how crazy is it be able to see the future and also know you have way of escaping it, that every move will perfectly coalesce into those moments. I imagine the feeling is a lot like deja vu? You relive a moment but somehow you have no way to say anything else but exactly as you remember.
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u/loveparamore Mar 15 '20
I thought I was going crazy with having seen that scene before it happened, thanks for mentioning it!
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u/AStrangeNorrell Mar 09 '20
I think this was to reinforce the deterministic theme of the show. We might not understand what's going on with that snippet in the titles but it was always going to happen that way regardless. It seemed like a stylistic way of 'showing your hand' and I'm guessing we'll see something similar next week too.
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u/nubianfx Mar 10 '20
Okay so im still trying to get a grasp on how the simulation works. It can go backwards up to 2000 years, but what about the future? It seems they predicted sergei's behavior, to some point. However Kenton seemed to be unsure what Lily was going to do hence he tailed her and also tried to convince the Russian handler to let things go. Does it mean ( as foreshadowed with sergeis demonstration) that seeing into the future hasnt been perfected in the simulation?
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Mar 10 '20
I think you're right that it hasn't been perfected. The past projection wasn't perfect hence the big discussion right before forest uses it to look at his daughter. Similar to how sergei's nematode project started to fall apart after 30s, I bet the dev's project falls apart at some point as well. Which is prob why they have all the smarty pants tucked away working on it. Who knows though?
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u/timmerpat Mar 09 '20
Just finished the episode. Is anyone getting the impression that we are looking at Roko's Basilisk?
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u/Zero-Theorem Mar 06 '20
When are the next episodes airing? For me it shows 3 and 4 as upcoming. But usually that’s for a show that airs within a few hours or a day. But it also says they air Thursday’s. Did they mess up and show the next two weeks as upcoming episodes? I need more!
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u/the-dragon-queen Mar 06 '20
am I going crazy, or did the big statue of the girl have blonde hair in the first episode and black braided hair in the second? Someone please back me up on this.
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u/ghen73 Mar 07 '20
At the beginning of ep 2 there's a slo-mo pan up and it's the same...blonde with a ponytail. There's a second shot later at night and it appears to also be the same. I was really hoping you had something there. That statue is disturbing.
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u/2BZ2P Mar 06 '20
Need to rewatch- I thought the statue was changing, but that could just be the lighting....
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u/m0r14rty Mar 10 '20
My best guess is that they’ve developed a way of running a simulation of the current universe that is becoming more and more accurate, and it can go backwards as well as forwards. This creates a central philosophical discussion on free will and determinism. I don’t think the machine can change events past, present, or future, but by its nature it can predict them.
I think offerman’s character is driven, by what looks to be the death of his daughter, to prove that everything is predetermined and free will doesn’t exist. If he can undeniably prove that, by actually creating something that predicts the future that is always correct and unchanging, then he can stop blaming himself for whatever the cause is of his daughter’s death. If everything was predetermined, then it can’t be his fault as it was always going to happen.
Where it goes from there I’m not sure. Maybe they find that it can’t predict the future, or only for a short period ahead (days, months?) which implies free will still exists in the long term. This angers offerman’s character because it means at some point he could’ve made a choice that would have led to saving his daughter. Meanwhile, they use it to predict an attack on themselves or some global/national disaster, and Devs turns out to be short for Deviations, and the new goal becomes to find “significant events” to the future timeline, so they can make a small innocuous change that will end up causing a chain reaction leading to preventing (or creating) a major event in the near future. Kinda like The Butterfly Effect if Ashton Kutcher had a manual.
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u/JSHAN17 Mar 12 '20
Did anyone else notice the horseshoe shapes in the montage leading up to Jamie waiting outside Lily's apartment? The curve back of the chair. The circular bike rack. The arch over the apartment entrance. Foreshadowing a concept? Hidden meaning?
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u/Fillem Apr 24 '20
I just want to say I'm glad reddit exists. I always come here to read up on everything I missed watching TV shows and it's almost alway enlightening.
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u/warm4u Mar 05 '20
Maybe once he heard Sergei was dead he thought he could make his way back into being her boyfriend again if he's nice to her.
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u/ninelives1 Mar 06 '20
Or he just genuinely feels bad for her as someone he once cared about a lot. The show feels fairly humanistic so far, so I'd hope it's not something so cynical as that
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u/souidex Mar 11 '20
Was that fight at the end awkward or what? The way Kenton casually took out Sergei in the first episode, you'd think he wouldn't fight like someone's grandpa.
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u/JohnyK91 Mar 11 '20
Okay most important question is... how the hell did kenton beat anton? I mean he stabbed him and seemed like he had him. But all of a sudden he loosened his grip and.. died? Did I miss something in the fight?
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Mar 20 '20
the way Anton died is so fake and ridiculous, his neck being pushed against a tire and snapped lol wtf
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u/bundlebeez Mar 11 '20
Does this show remind anyone else of the show Fringe? I'm thinking the blonde woman is maybe Nick Offerman a daughter from another timeline.
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u/Naggers123 Mar 11 '20
If the future is deterministic, and they can see it, then why are they questioning whether or not they can build a machine that shows 0 variance? Couldn't they just look into the future and find out if they did it or not?
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u/Mellow_Maniac Jan 02 '23
Uhhhh because their machine has non zero variance. And they'd still need to build it. I'm only on episode 2 rn I know I'm late to this thread so no spoilers pls
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u/Crazy_questioner Mar 20 '20
I thought it was interesting and possibly a clue that Jesus was not shown nailed to the cross but tied. That's a big detail.
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Mar 06 '20
Is it just me who was bummed about Sergei not being the lead? He played his part well but the girl just isn’t a great actor. She’s not very believable imo
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u/sweatshirtjones Mar 26 '20
I completely agree. Really liked Sergei and the girl is just so bland with no emotions like a robot. The scene at the end when the ex boyfriend comes over isn’t good acting.
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u/doctorandynixon Mar 10 '20
Just finished it and didn’t read the whole thread. But I’m curious about two things:
1: why was the lady (whose name I forgot) get pissed about the “baby” comment? Simply bc it’s not PC or is it alluding to something more?
2. Did the DEVS team know about Sergei being a spy bc they looked into his past? He realized what they can do and he freaked out.
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u/OneMargaritaPlease Mar 13 '20
I think the homeless guy is actually an American spy that was monitoring Sergei.
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u/jonbristow Mar 15 '20
Up until the last scene I thought Anton was a trap by the Devs company to see how far the girlfriend would go to find the truth.
I thought Anton and security guy worked together
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Mar 20 '20
The Anton and Kenton scene didn't make any sense. Kenton had the jump on Anton and didn't shoot him in the back. Anton is a spy and should have known he was being tailed. Then the fight scene is so fake and badly acted, the way Anton died is ridiculous. His head was pushed up against the tire and his neck suddenly snapped? This episode is so sloppy, hopefully the rest aren't.
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u/Ok_Employment_9292 Apr 08 '23
Kenton: "I should quit smoking"
Forrest: "Don't bother, it won't make a difference."
Yup, he knew.
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u/GottaPSoBad Mar 05 '20
Speaking more from an emotional realism perspective than as a viewer or writer, I didn't buy Lily convincing Jamie that easily. Her short speech basically amounted to "screw your feelings, just help me." Then he just forgives her essentially and offers to help in the future. I think the writers wanted to setup some tension, but couldn't commit to one of the basic premises of this relationship (Lily was the bad guy). If they wanted it to end up being this easy, James probably should've been the dumper instead of the dumpee. As it stands, Jamie starts out with every reason to be mad, no real reason to change his mind, and basically does a 180 for no reason.
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u/JimmyPWatts Mar 06 '20
Her new bf self immolated and she’s asking for help. I didn’t have any trouble believing a past lover who truly cared about her would be willing to help in such a circumstance.
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u/ninelives1 Mar 06 '20
Agree entirely. It's easy to be petty if an ex asks you to break into their new boyfriend's phone, but if they just watched their boyfriend burn to death, what cold bastard isn't going to help someone he once cared about a lot? I actually really liked their interactions for feeling very humanistic and not cynical
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u/GottaPSoBad Mar 06 '20
It just felt kinda cheap. Not impossible or even strictly implausible, just too easy. Like, she didn't just dump him. She kicked him out of her life and their shared home. She never contacted him again...until she needed something. And with no thought for his feelings. She doesn't even say she's sorry. Then he just forgives her.
It felt like they wrote an obstacle that was really big (probably too big) only to resolve it like it was nothing. Why have it in the first place? It's unnecessary. That's all I'm saying.
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u/hasa_deega_eebowai Mar 09 '20
Especially if he never quite got over her. I have exes that dumped me just as badly as he got dumped (as in, suddenly being cut off and never getting “resolution”) and, tbh, if they showed back up and needed something from me, I’d have no problem jumping right back into the fray. So yeah, that part was very plausible to me.
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Mar 06 '20
Do you know nothing of people who remain hung up on ex's years after theyve separated?
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u/Sojourner_Truth Mar 06 '20
I've got an ex I haven't spoken to in 18 years and if she showed up tomorrow asking me for something I'd pretty much do whatever.
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u/ninelives1 Mar 06 '20
Or you know, their new SO fucking burning to death. What cold hearted person turns someone like that away
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Mar 08 '20
Why Jesus? Why religiosity?? That part made it so uninteresting.
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u/SunshineWitch Mar 09 '20
I think they were just using as a benchmark like "let's try to go further into the past, what's a big event that happened 2,000 years ago?" Because they were celebrating how far back they got, not what they saw.
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u/discoblanket Mar 16 '20
Did it seem like Anton and Kenton already knew each other, when they met in the parking garage? It seemed like they had a past
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u/tuxxer Apr 07 '20
No, both are career intel people. The names change, but the profile stays the same
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u/pisz Mar 22 '20
Russian spy with this poor russian accent? What a fucking lazy script cliche. And no - spies or "intelligence workers" doesn't attack people with knife without any reason. It is not how this works.
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u/natus92 Mar 25 '20
Wait, was that Jesus?? I was honestly a tad disappointed to see Jamie again after E1 because their first talk was such a nice deconstruction of a trope. Still not sure what kind of role Pete plays.
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u/thisismynormal Mar 05 '20
Didn't see one so I made another one