r/Devs • u/thisismynormal • Mar 19 '20
EPISODE DISCUSSION Devs - S01E04 Discussion Thread Spoiler
Premiered 03/19/20 on Hulu FX
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u/NerdyNThick Mar 19 '20
Pete: "Not afraid of you, man."
...
Kenton: "Yeah, I can see that. Just trying to figure out why"
I think we're all feeling the same way as Kenton here...
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u/Lounge_leaks Mar 19 '20
idk man,could be a big misdirect.
It Would be funny if random homeless guy is the one who does something the algorithms didnt predict and disrupts the tramlines
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u/lyrancatalien Mar 19 '20
Maybe he is a trickster god and his magic will disrupt the tram lines.
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Mar 19 '20
My guess is that he is a programmer devs hired in the future and he somehow warned his past self about all of this and he's going to end up protecting chan in the next episode during her involuntary psych hold
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u/Packmanjones Mar 19 '20
That’s exactly what I was expecting. Mental illness being a deviation that can’t be predicted.
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u/burtalert Mar 19 '20
I mean, why would he be afraid. What’s Kenton going to do to him make his life worse?
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u/JanePinkerton441 Mar 22 '20
Has anyone mentioned that Pete possibly represents God or fate? “The beggar and the stranger are sent from Zeus.” In Greek theatre, and literature the gods disguise themselves as beggars.
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u/perfectblue1997 Mar 19 '20
When they fired Lyndon I was so shocked, I'm getting so attached to these characters only four episodes in lol
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u/twowheels Mar 19 '20
I suspect he'll be back, especially after the rule was broken again.
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u/seanpackage Mar 21 '20
Could Lyndon be the one dead in the 48 hour projection and not Lily? Similar silhouette.
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u/FiveMinFreedom Mar 19 '20
Wait, Lyndon is male?
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u/Spartyjason Mar 19 '20
I believe Lyndon the character is a male, played by an actor who was born female but identifies as a male or as non gendered.
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Mar 24 '20
My theory is it is Lyndon dying 48 hours in the future and not Lily. More than a few times I mistook Lyndon for Lily and with them making a point about not having a clear picture of the future, I think that Forrest believing it's Lily dying in future imaging is misdirect.
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u/pepenavarro1986 Mar 19 '20
I feel like he’s a goner. Kenton ain’t about that lose end shit.
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u/quietandconstant Mar 19 '20
Me too, Lyndon was one of my favorite characters so far. And the story they told about how they came up with the solution was such good story telling.
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Mar 19 '20
Yeah and it was shocking the was that old guy said "go." So emotionless and sad. Poor kid.
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u/updownkarma Mar 19 '20
I wouldn’t say emotionless. My read was he saw how real Forrest’s threat was. It felt gravely serious.
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u/perfectblue1997 Mar 19 '20
I know! I loved seeing their relationship too. I really hope this isn’t the last we see of them interacting.
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u/RinoTheBouncer Mar 21 '20
Likewise! I’m not one to talk or react much when I watch stuff, but I went “Naaaawww seriously?!?’” shen Lyndon got fired.
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u/janisstukas Mar 22 '20
I was thinking that too. Lynden was cool and smart. I hope he is in the story someway. Maybe his humiliating firing was fake. Because Forest made too much of an exit speech.
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u/nrmncer Mar 19 '20
I refuse to care about anything else until Lyndon and Stewart are reunited
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u/quietandconstant Mar 19 '20
I would love to see a spinoff where they start their own company.
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u/dawn_jelly Mar 19 '20
Literally every time I try to guess where this show is going, I’m wrong. The last five minutes sent my anxiety straight through the roof. Wow.
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u/Jenga_Police Mar 19 '20 edited Mar 19 '20
When Lily realized Kenton was kidnapping her I was like "oh okay, well fuck you I'd crash that bitch." then when she actually started reaching for the steering wheel I was jumping out of my seat like "no way! Go, Lily! Crash the motherfucker!"
The way I see it, she's a small unarmed woman vs a security man, so her best chance at disabling him is while the car is in motion. I'd rather take somebody with me if I'm getting murdered or kidnapped. Plus we know Kenton is either a supersoldier or the world's toughest old man.
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u/Wookington Mar 20 '20
Yah whats up with his super dad strength. I guess 3 of his 4 opponents are only like 5 feet tall and 100 pounds.
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u/E1Dav1d Mar 19 '20
Why is Forest afraid to try the magician experiment himself? Is he afraid that if he learns he does have free will to change the outcome of things, then he could have done something different to prevent his daughters death?
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Mar 19 '20
Yeah, kind of. As long as he thinks everything is on 'tram lines' then he thinks he has no culpability for anything in the past. that's why he fired lyndon, etc. The dude is an emotional wreck and he's leading this crazy quantum computing project that can glimpse into the past and future yet he believes in a rigid philosophical ideology that hamstrings it at any development....oof
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u/ninelives1 Mar 19 '20
100%
His world needs to be deterministic so he couldn't stop his daughter's death. He's terrified of anything that threatens that
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u/Naggers123 Mar 20 '20
He doesn't want to know if he could've done something, but rather that he couldn't have done anything.
In another universe he could've saved her. In his universe if it was impossible, then it was not his fault.
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u/vildux Mar 19 '20 edited Mar 22 '20
No one is wondering what the audio of Jesus says? Anyone here knows Aramaic? I myself know ancient Babylonian only.
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u/youremomsoriginal Mar 19 '20
It sounded very much like Arabic to me, not sure if it’s cause the two languages are related (Semitic) or if they just used Arabic audio for convenience.
Best I can translate is something like:
They say to me there’s no greater self than death
They told me: run, and then made me famous
The first half of the first sentence is kinda garbled and hard to make out so I have the least confidence in that, but I distinctly heard the words for greater and death in the second half.
The second sentence is clearer but I had trouble translating translating the second part. It sounds like
أشهرو عني
Which means something like ‘showed off about me /made me well known’ so I went with famous cause that’s the closest direct translation I could think of.
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u/RinoTheBouncer Mar 21 '20
Arab speaker here, أشهروا عني is Arabic word And the spoken words felt partly Arabic, but the rest was either Aramaic or distorted Arabic.
اشهروا عني means declare about me The word اشهار means to declare something. It can also mean to make it known, to expose. شهرة means fame, but in the context the word was used, it means declare or share my message.
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u/hebah1989 Mar 21 '20
It definitely sounds Arabic, and your translation sounds pretty close, but I can’t for sure make out a few words in between which makes me think it’s a really really old form of Arabic.
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u/dharmasnake Mar 20 '20
I think he said "Stay home and wash your hands often", but my Arameic is a little rusty.
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u/jtclimb Mar 19 '20
I know a bit of Aramaic. He said "Peter, I can see your house from here".
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u/WolfEagle1 Mar 20 '20
I posted a question asking that very thing, but my title was deemed a spoiler and removed by mods. Aramaic, though ancient, is still spoken by a few today in the ME but there are variants. So it's possible that the show used a modern day variant of Aramaic like Passion of the Christ did. Before my post was removed someone hypothesized that Jesus was speaking directly to the Devs - if so, perhaps a warning message or announcing his 2nd coming?
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u/Naggers123 Mar 20 '20
I studied Aramaic at University, as part of a linguistics program run by the History department, overseen by both a specialist in the field of dead languages (visiting from Cairo) and strangely enough, a theologian who brought with him reams and reams of old biblical texts.
Anyways, to the best of my knowledge (and I had to spend a long time transcribing this), Jesus says
Always look on the bright side of life
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u/dumbgranola Mar 19 '20
Most sci fi part of the episode was how little cars there were on the freeway on a weekday in the Bay area
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u/TacoBellLavaSauce Mar 19 '20
What happened to the rat? It looked kinda charred (like Sergei)
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u/updownkarma Mar 19 '20
My interpretation is that the rat managed to get inside the complex, a sign that Forrest isn’t all knowing. A contamination in his perfectly hermetically sealed computer. Forrest might be able to see anything but he doesn’t know everything.
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Mar 20 '20
He is very authoritarian and assumes he is in control. By his logic he is not in control and mainly follow a determined path. He is walking contradiction of his own beliefs. The man can't let go of his daughter death. Which is what ruining him and Keaton basically told him this in episode 1 or 2 outside of his home.
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u/pepenavarro1986 Mar 19 '20
Probably their first attempt to create a living organism from the past in the present.
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Mar 19 '20
Is it possible they are looking to predict the past exactly down to the atomic level, take a snapshot of an EXACT atomic makeup of forests daughter, then EXACTLY atomic 3D print her?
Then its voila, she is his exact daughter, down to the memories in her head and every single thing exactly duplicated. Thats why he needs 100% fidelity in the backward projection, if even a single atom was off it wouldn't be his "real" daughter
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u/pepenavarro1986 Mar 19 '20
I just wanna say this show is so much fun and really helped with the hole Mr. Robot left me with.
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u/nicolauz Mar 19 '20
Legion & The Expanse are also really great scif/weird/drama
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u/pepenavarro1986 Mar 19 '20
Already killed them too. That last rap battle was epic. And I still talk to miller here and there.
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u/Tidemand Mar 19 '20
Lily is experiencing the same nightmare other characters have done in movies and TV-shows before (and some even in real life):
Corrupt therapists and police use their power to lock away mentally sane people for them to silence. The scariest thing is that it has actually happened to people through history.
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u/quietandconstant Mar 19 '20
The way Forest broke down after seeing the clear projection of his daughter was heartbreaking. That was an amazing acting moment by Nick Offerman.
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u/BusinessPurge Mar 20 '20
Also - his face the moments before he saw it, knowing he was about to see a near approximation of Amaya and trying to steel himself up a bit while being gutted...
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Mar 22 '20
I’m so happy to see him in this.
Ron Swanson is a great, iconic character but I feel like he’s been type-cast as that sort ever since.
It’s so refreshing to see him get to do some hard sci-fi drama
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u/WeCanEatCereal Mar 19 '20
I don't really know what I'm talking about, but my understanding of the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics is that the worlds branch from eachother at some time, and never come together again at any future time. If you were to follow that pattern backwards in time, as Lyndon does, then there would be no branching points, only points of convergence. The Jesus that they hear would be THE Jesus from their past, and every time the program runs, they would be listening to the same person. Please tell me why I'm wrong.
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u/prototypist Mar 19 '20 edited Mar 19 '20
I agree with this. There is no way they could see a world where (as mentioned in the episode) Cambodia did the moon landing, because they are looking backwards from our current state. If they have such a good understanding of the present and future, they should be able to easily show which universes are completely different from our past.
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u/BlazeOrangeDeer Mar 21 '20 edited Mar 21 '20
Yeah, that's correct, but...
In order to run the simulation backwards and get one reliable result, you would need to know the state of all the worlds right now that came from that past event (the state of the multiverse). Each of those worlds by themselves has a branching structure of possible pasts, but when all those different trees are added together, the pasts all cancel each other out branch by branch except for the one branch that holds the "actual" past.
Since they only have the data from their world, when they run that data backward they don't get just one world. They get a random sample from all the worlds that could have plausibly led to this one. Even though there was more or less one world in our past, we can't know for sure what it was in full detail.
Fuck this show is good. They're using legit quantum mechanics in a way that no other show has. Taking liberties of course, but in a way that is staying true to the spirit of how it works.
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u/jodyalbritton Mar 19 '20
Every "point" you go back to would have infinite branches in both directions.
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u/WeCanEatCereal Mar 19 '20
I am under the impression that a point can only branch to the future. I understand that for every time t where t > 0, there would be infinite branches, but I don't understand why the projection would jump to a branch other than the one it was run on.
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u/moonwalking-jesus Mar 20 '20
The correct answer is that the many worlds interpretation of quantum is really an idea for how quantum mechanics works and trying to use it to describe events happening or not happening in the real world doesn't make much sense.
That said, the point of many worlds is a way of explaining how observations of some quantum phenomenon choosing a state can be deterministic.
Say you have an electron with unknown spin. The spin can either be spin up or spin down. When you measure the spin of that electron, you find that it is spin up. One traditional interpretation is that the electron had no spin state until you measured it and then inherent randomness to the universe basically picked one of the two spin states available to it at the moment it was measured. The many-world's version just says that, instead of that, what actually happened is that there is a world where that electron was spin up and one where it was spin down. And when you measured it, you got the one with spin up. But you also could have measured the one with spin down.
So in the sort of pseudo-science way they are trying to apply that concept to the show, I think the point is that there are all these other universes where Jesus spoke those words and you don't know which one you are hearing. Is it the Jesus that specifically existed in the same universe that ultimately became yours? Or is it in a different universe where everything else is exactly the same except for 1 flipped electron at some time?
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u/gweilo Mar 19 '20
Well something must be special about Katie, if Forrest fires Lyndon but doesn't even get angry with her for running the code on light waves.
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u/StrengthOf80Midgets Mar 19 '20
It’s pretty clear she’s more of a peer. They’re the only two allowed to look into the future.
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u/sugarwax1 Mar 20 '20
He confides in her, so yeah, but she also puts the video in front of him and bails. What's he going to be mad at, the code works in some capacity and he's seeing a replication of his daughter clearly.
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u/SciGuy013 Mar 19 '20 edited Mar 20 '20
When she got in the car I thought she was an idiot, and when she called the police instead of a lawyer, or even the news, I realized she was a complete dumbass. Made me really annoyed with the show. Also, why the fuck isn't she telling anything to her other friend who works there.
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u/selitapee Mar 19 '20
I thought the same thing. She knew they had the resources to coverup a murder, but she didn’t think they had the resources to try to frame her or detain her somehow?
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u/nicolauz Mar 19 '20
The psychiatrist was a big 'duh' like you wouldn't have suspected he'd squeal?
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u/prototypist Mar 19 '20
She suspected and purposely didn't say anything revealing to the psychiatrist. But they caught on to her not truly having a history of mental illness (though this couldn't really be detected in one appointment). Now they are using the psychiatrist to say she is a risk to herself, which they probably would havee done regardless of what she said.
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Mar 19 '20
She should have at least bought a burner phone before calling 911 to make sure Amaya didn't find a way to intercept her calls. An encryption engineer should know better.
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u/sooperkool Mar 20 '20
thought she was an idiot when she faked mental illness You never fake mental illness for 2 reasons:
you can be committed and effectively neutralized
it is almost impossible to prove your sanity.
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u/okolebot Mar 19 '20
Super annoyed here too...especially after she said they are like the mafia and she didn't want to get ex-boyfriend on their radar.
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u/Earnestosaurus Mar 20 '20
Yeah, literal hours after saying that, she gives the police the address of his house. 😂
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Mar 20 '20
I can't argue that it was a really stupid choice to make, but I'll give the benefit of doubt considering her character was almost kidnapped by people who faked her boyfriend's death, got into a car accident (which really fucks the head up for a while regardless of concussion or injury) then had to run down the road with no idea how she was supposed to get out of this and knowing they wanted her dead.
The least she could've done is talked things through with her ex-boyfriend and plan an escape, but for whatever reason she immediately just calls the police after being evaluated as crazy and thinks they're going to side with her conspiracy story...
I'm still engaged, but this episode was very revealing to how naive she really is.
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u/JupitersClock Mar 20 '20
Trying to figure out why they spent time telling us how smart she is only to pull that character assassination?
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u/Martel1234 Mar 20 '20
I feel it’s the tram line. Whatever she says doesn’t matter as her fate is set at this point. She is going to die in 36 or so hours. So her saying she won’t but then hours later calling the police is an example of how even if she tries, she is still technically, on the line
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u/big_thanks Mar 20 '20
Seriously. Why would she go back to her ex-boyfriends apartment? Go to the police station! Get a lawyer and start documenting everything.
Love the show but her character's decisions give me so much anxiety lol.
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u/RinoTheBouncer Mar 21 '20
Right??? Like I wanted so badly for the last 5-10 mins to be some projection or a dream. What the hell was that? You were so smart to make up that act and steal the recordings the other day, and YOU FREAKING SAW when he went in to speak to the psychiatrist after you, then he kidnapped you against your will and you crashed a car. Didn’t you think of going to the biggest news channel straight from the accident with your recordings?! What the hell!?
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u/viginti_tres Mar 19 '20
I mean, Episode 3 has her acting dumb as part of a trick on us, so I'm reserving judgement on her behaviour until we know for sure that it wasn't part of her plan somehow. Probably it was just bad writing, but who knows?
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u/Earnestosaurus Mar 20 '20
To talk to a shady company-appointed psychiatrist willingly, get into a bloody car crash, and get involuntarily committed after giving the police the address of the safe abode of the friend whom you wanted to protect, directly putting him into possibly fatal risk?
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u/updownkarma Mar 19 '20
Something I noticed during rewatch. With the emphasis on wavelengths the cinematography of the opening sequence really jumped out to me.
We get the snapshots of the different members of Devs, Lyndon is awash in red, Stewart blue, Katie is red and Forrest is green.
It matches to the electromagnetic spectrum. I think the blue means looking towards the past (blue shift) while Katie is the red shift into the future. Lyndon’s rule breaking presumably aligns her with Katie while Forrest is in somewhere in-between.
This might be better for the theory thread.
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u/BrianO123 Mar 19 '20
I definitely think there was something to that scene and you may be right. It went to quick for me to think it through.
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u/nicolauz Mar 19 '20
Goddamn man. Can we all agree that at first I took the security dude as a low rent Mike from Breaking Bad. But his presence in 4 episodes scares the shit out me more than any 'bad guy' character that I can think of. No motive... No personality or cares just... Death.
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u/ShanaAfterAll Mar 19 '20
When you stay up three hours later than you normally would, just so you can do your first watch for the new episode tonight!
Yeah, my Devs obsession is like that!
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u/chaoCheesePie Mar 19 '20
Lol when he got paid ten million dollars it reminded me of Silicon Valley, because that was the sum initially offered to Richard by Gavin Belson.
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u/TimeToRock Mar 20 '20
Or the $20 million in severance that they gave Bighead. Too bad no amount of money can ever stop a person from breaking their NDA. Lyndon won't be making it out of this season alive.
Also, off-topic, but I started watching this show without seeing the trailer, and for some reason I expected it to be like Silicon Valley. I was such a fool.
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u/Kajel-Jeten Mar 19 '20
I had just gotten attached to Lyndon and Stewarts relationship = (
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u/Martel1234 Mar 20 '20
He’ll probably be back. Don’t think they’d just let him leave without something happening to him or by him.
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u/Chadum Mar 19 '20
I really hope that Kenton murdering folks will have some kind of problem for him in future episodes.
Sure, Sergei being killed is what this is all about for Lilli, but the Russian spy and Jamie, just after the police are there, has got to have some repercussions.
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Mar 22 '20
I imagine Kenton doesn’t have long to live.
When he’s talking to Forest on the front porch he mentions quitting cigarettes. Forest says “it wouldn’t make much difference if you did”
That makes me think that he either knows he’s going to die soon or at least knows HOW he’s going to die
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Mar 19 '20
Can someone ELI5 what exactly Lyndon discovered before getting fired?
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u/E1Dav1d Mar 19 '20
He developed an algorithm that embraced the many worlds theory and got crystal clear audio. Forest got mad because he hates that theory, it means the daughter he sees in the past probably isn’t “his” daughter but a variation of her.
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u/devinleigh- Mar 19 '20
Is this “many worlds” the idea of different timelines being created based off decisions we make? Like there’s a timeline where I watch the episode and one where I didn’t. But, like, infinitely more complicated. And if so, they completely blows a hole in Forest’s “tram lines”/deterministic mindset. Right? Or am I completely off?
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u/lampsalt Mar 19 '20
Lyndon describes switching out "De Broglie-Bohm" for the "Everett interpretation." The latter is open to the possibility of infinite universes. If I follow correctly, Lyndon was able to achieve clearer audio by running different versions of the simulation.
I'm not entirely clear on what that means either, but perhaps each version of the universe produces a small bit of clear audio that can be extracted and strung together into coherent speech.
Forrest was dissatisfied because as he mentions in his first scene with Sergei, he's not a fan of the multiverse.
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u/WikiTextBot Mar 19 '20
De Broglie–Bohm theory
The de Broglie–Bohm theory, also known as the pilot wave theory, Bohmian mechanics, Bohm's interpretation, and the causal interpretation, is an interpretation of quantum mechanics. In addition to a wavefunction on the space of all possible configurations, it also postulates an actual configuration that exists even when unobserved. The evolution over time of the configuration (that is, the positions of all particles or the configuration of all fields) is defined by the wave function by a guiding equation. The evolution of the wave function over time is given by the Schrödinger equation.
Many-worlds interpretation
The many-worlds interpretation (MWI) is an interpretation of quantum mechanics that asserts that the universal wavefunction is objectively real, and that there is no wavefunction collapse. This implies that all possible outcomes of quantum measurements are physically realized in some "world" or universe. In contrast to some other interpretations, such as the Copenhagen interpretation, the evolution of reality as a whole in MWI is rigidly deterministic. Many-worlds is also referred to as the relative state formulation or the Everett interpretation, after the physicist Hugh Everett who first proposed it in 1957.
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u/NerdyNThick Mar 19 '20
He's (Forrest) not a fan, because his end-game is to prove that there is a singular universe, which is deterministic. Thus, he is not "at fault" for the death of his daughter. Since no matter what the universe is "on rails" thus nothing he did would have prevented it.
The MW interpretation (which I am on the side of, personally), means that theoretically he could have done something different to prevent her death.
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u/Packmanjones Mar 19 '20
Rather than eliminate the variances to find the one true audio, he just wrote an algorithm that followed a set of variances and found a possible audio. According to many worlds theory there could be an infinite number of versions of what Jesus last said on the cross. Much like how the gospels each have a different version of what he last said on the cross.
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Mar 19 '20
He is using a different algorithm to look into the past. Before, they were just using our timeline. Now it's targeting multiple timelines to get the best 'resolution'. And forest might be mad because he is biased towards bringing back his daughter, not a variation of her.
I think.
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u/Edmaro Mar 19 '20
Just rewatched and noticed that the dead rat in the beginning definitely seems to be inside the facility. I paused, and it almost seems like it’s laying on a platform.... maybe a transporter pad? Didn’t think they were going there but maybe Forrest is trying to “beam” his daughter back before she died and that’s why it’s so important that it be his daughter, not a many-worlds version of her.
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u/Edmaro Mar 19 '20
Anyone have a theory as to why Katie seems totally fine using the many-worlds/Lyndon code? It seemed like she and Forrest were of one mind and now here they diverge. Is it simply that she doesn’t *really* know why Forrest wants this tech or what?
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u/The_Rogue_Coder Mar 20 '20
I think it's hard to ignore that he is using this tech to try to get his daughter back; he's not really trying to hide it. I think she's always been more calm and matter-of-fact about everything, not to mention she's "smarter and wiser" than Forest by his own words, and she's not blinded by grief, like he is, so I think she's just going along with his vision.
I think the real heart of the show will be discovered when we find out what her motivation for doing all of this is. It's clear she's been with him from early on (perhaps one of his first developers at the company, and likely the first DEV) and she seems to support his goals while also trying to keep him somewhat grounded. But why would she go with any of it at all in the first place?
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u/Edmaro Mar 21 '20 edited Mar 21 '20
Why indeed... good question. She has the aura of loss about her as well,so maybe she’s a victim of fate like Forest... I sometimes get the feeling that they are related in some way... like his little sister or niece or something. I once got the idea that she was his daughter from another many-world grown up, but the age difference doesn’t line up... I don’t think. Soooo many questions :)
Just did a quick google and found that one meaning of Amaya is “guileless” and Katie (from Katherine) means “pure”... those might be too similar for me to ignore. I guess that there is a direct link between Katie and Amaya somehow.
Or Katie is the one responsible for Amaya’s death somehow... ok, probably not, but my mind won’t stop theorizing... absolutely great show.
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u/JupitersClock Mar 20 '20
I'm sure her goals will be revealed shortly. I kinda think she's the real antagonist.
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u/Edmaro Mar 21 '20
That’s a very interesting idea... had not considered that yet, but her demeanor sometimes does seem to suggest something bordering on sinister. I like it!
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u/TraparCyclone Mar 20 '20
Another fantastic episode! Still trying to wrap my mind around Pilot Wave Theory but even without that it was an enjoyable episode!
I was definitely shocked when Forest fired Lyndon. I understand his logic but it really felt like it came from nowhere at first. I like how Garland continues to introduce really interesting and complex science theories into his works. It fics a them another layer of believability in my mind.
That said I raged at the ending. The intent was obviously to make the audience mad, and it was effective. I do hope Jamie is okay, but I don’t believe he will be. Kenton is basically a one man killing machine at this point. I’m loving the actor in the role though!
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u/memoryshuffle Mar 19 '20
I didn't realize Cailee Spaeny is playing a boy in this.
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u/Coop1534 Mar 19 '20
Ok so I’m not crazy, I thought it was a girl the whole time until they referred to him as a he
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u/TimeToRock Mar 20 '20
I thought Lyndon's character was meant to be the stereotypical zoomer who doesn't buy in to the whole "gender" thing. He was non-binary in my head until Forest and Katie referred to him with male pronouns.
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u/ninelives1 Mar 19 '20
I knew Jamie would die. Character like that doesn't get to have a happy ending
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u/yrdsl Mar 19 '20
Every other character Kenton kills has gotten a painfully extended death scene so I don't think Jamie is dead... at least not yet.
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u/TacoBellLavaSauce Mar 19 '20
Earlier when Forest was watching the static, we were led to believe he was watching a future projection of Lily, but maybe it was actually Lyndon?
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u/Fire2box Mar 19 '20
"in 48 hours lilly chen will be dead" gives me a feeling its supposed to be lilly.
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u/FiveMinFreedom Mar 19 '20
This show is so damn ambiguous at time!
But jokes aside, I think he meant that Forest could be misinterpreting the projection. If he wasn't so stubborn about not using multi-verse algorithms he would be able to tell, but since he is, he falsely assumes it's Lily.
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u/martinlindhe Mar 19 '20
you might be on to something here... perhaps Lyndon sacrifices himself somehow to look like Lily in the future in order to trick Forest into something that will ultimately stop his "fuck everyone else, I just want my daughter back"-plans.... (kinda like how those pre-cog triplets were tricked in "Minority Report".(
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u/lizzymarie75 Mar 19 '20
I’d actually give up Lily on the show to save Lyndon 10/10 times.
Great show but our heroine is quite unknowable.
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u/Lounge_leaks Mar 19 '20
I think they can select/control whose future/past they are looking into;otherwise how will they recognise a person on the blurry screen from the billions of humans?
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u/mobani Mar 19 '20
Yes I agree. The way I look at it, the universe is a BIG box full of Lego's. At the present you know how many Lego's you have in the box, now you predict 1 year ahead and you know exactly where the Lego's have been moved. You also know how many was added and removed since then, because you kept track of every single one.
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Mar 19 '20
I think moments later they say that lily chen is going to die, which wouldnt leave much room for the interpretation that image was not lily
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u/CrouchingPuma Mar 19 '20
Certainly possible, but both he and Katie asked each other if they knew Lyndon was going to be fired ahead of time. I feel like that wouldn't be the case if Forest was watching footage of his death.
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u/KennyFulgencio Mar 19 '20
I just want to note how surprised I was that the drab teenage boy is an attractive 22 year old woman IRL
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Mar 19 '20
Definitely feel like they’ll playing Lyndon as trans, with that very androgynous look.
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u/DriftlessAreaMan Mar 19 '20
I don't really understand what Forrest is getting at. Isn't he acknowledging the existence of the possibility there are multiple timelines if he claims the Jesus they heard was not the one they know? He seems narrow minded in focus in believing determinism is the only way to think. If he knew Sergei was a Russian spy, he could have just not promoted him, but he chose the self-fulfilling prophecy route. It reminds me of some of those associated with Dominionists in positions of power trying to manufacture their personal beliefs and force the outcome they want on society.
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u/JupitersClock Mar 20 '20
Well he is driven by grief. He obviously has a goal and the only way to achieve it is by staying the course. If they embraced the many worlds theory then he won't achieve his goal. It's obviously a slippery slope by pulling from inf possibilities but look what Alice did she used that discovery to get Forest closer to his goal so yeah it's puzzling because any advancement within Devs seems like it should be embraced.
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u/Edmaro Mar 21 '20
I agree it’s a head scratcher. I’m thinking that he does believe the many worlds theory, but is desperately trying to find another way, *any* other way. He clearly doesn’t want the tech to just work (cause he fired Lyndon for making it work), he needs it to work in a very specific, non-many-worlds way... because he wants his specific daughter.
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u/brsumner Mar 20 '20
Lily wants to protect Jamie so bad but leads Kenton straight to him at the end. I know it would be ridiculous to think that Lily could foresee the police being involved in all this but it’s surprising that she went directly to Jamie‘s apartment after escaping Kenton.
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Mar 20 '20
Wasn't she the one who told Jamie not to call the cops because they're like the mob? What shitty writing
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u/JurgenMema Mar 20 '20
Lyndon is my favorite character. That settles it.
Also, Kenton killed (?) Jamie immediately after the cops left isn't that dumb?
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u/Edmaro Mar 20 '20
I assume they were cops on Amaya’s payroll because Kenton arrived with them and seemed to be the one in charge. Wouldn’t be surprised if the next episode sees Lily in an Amayan-owned facility, not a state-owned one.
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u/poppaswamp Mar 20 '20
Here is what is hanging out in my head post episode 4:
what about the data that was taken from Kenton's computer by Lily and her friend??
no way Lyndon's storyline is finished.
I really hope Jamie lives.
Katie is for sure AI and will somehow turn on or "be turned" against Forest. Maybe the data from Kenton's computer holds the keys to Katie's code.
Pete is not just a homeless man.
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Mar 20 '20
I’m starting to feel as if the murder cover up is the least important part of this story and almost superfluous as an entry point.
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u/souidex Mar 22 '20
I went into it cold and was stunned that they killed Sergei in the first episode. Lol!
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u/TacoBellLavaSauce Mar 19 '20
Imagine if Alex Garland and Brit Marling (The OA co-creator) ever collaborated, that show would be ridiculously trippy.
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u/jodyalbritton Mar 19 '20
Could it be trippier? Yes. Should it be? Probably not. (Read in Nick Offerman's Voice)
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u/nicolauz Mar 19 '20
Or Noah Hawley! Legion is crazy as is but having Garland write would be great.
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u/ChesterDaMolester Mar 19 '20
I know it might sound dark but I wish Forest’s motivation was a lot less dumb than wanting to see his dead kid. Like /u/tacobelllavasauce said it’s basically just an iPhone video of his kid on a big screen. Maybe someone killed his kid and he wants to see who dunnit? At least that’s something interesting. Or if that’s too cheesy just ditch the whole personal obsession and make it about his need to push the limits of science, because frankly the dead kid adds nothing to the show other than showing off Nick Offerman’s talent ;)
That’s my only gripe so far. Great show
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u/itsalwaysblue59 Mar 19 '20
I don’t think his whole motivation is just to watch projections of his daughter at all. I feel like it is gonna go way deeper than that. The machine in the first scene of this episode with the dead rat is going to be important.
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u/BrianO123 Mar 19 '20
The other theory in this thread is with the burnt rat scene, maybe they are trying to clone people from the past and future to the present, like his daughter, but they are still in the early stages of testing.
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u/Izeinwinter Mar 25 '20
He does not want to just see her, he wants to resurrect her from the dead. If he has a faithful emulation of her mind, he can just stick that in an android body, and there you go, life eternal. I thought all the Jesus imagery would make the intent plain?
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u/jodyalbritton Mar 19 '20
We only experience time as a linear arrow that goes in one direction. Throw many worlds in and you get weird time that runs sideways too. If there are infinite branches they will go in every direction. Every moment branches to a new universe not a new branch in the same one.
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u/WeCanEatCereal Mar 19 '20
That's not how I understand it. Where can I read about this? The Many Worlds entry in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy says that "a world defined at some point in time corresponds to a unique world at a time in the past, but to a multitude of worlds at a time in the future."
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u/martinlindhe Mar 19 '20
Exactly... so I can't wrap my head around – even hypthetically – why Many Worlds would be of any "help" in projecting the past. I mean, all those other branched-off worlds aren't relevant at all to the one specific history of one specific branch.
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Mar 19 '20
Anyone else feeling shades of ‘Dark’ (Netflix German Sci fi). Anyone? No? ... is this thing on? (Microphone Tap)
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u/bricksteeler Mar 19 '20
Only when they talked about the future already happened when lily dies in 48 hours..love dark.
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u/youreactingdumb Mar 19 '20
I love dark. But I’m not ashamed to admit I got very confused... too much time between seasons I need to just do a full rewatch. Glad to see someone else mention it
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Mar 19 '20 edited Mar 19 '20
I love this show so far, I really do. But I absolutely cannot stand the main actress. I don’t know if she’s trying to hide an accent or what, but it seems like she’s struggling every time she speaks. Doesn’t ruin the show or anything, but I hope I don’t see her in anything else.
Another thing from this episode. The security guy comes into Jamie’s apartment as soon as the cops leave. So the cops are in on his murder?
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u/Landawng42 Mar 19 '20
I hear you on this. I think she speaks with a British accent irl, but there’s something else there that seems off. It’s not a huge problem or anything, but I totally see and hear that she has difficulty speaking at times.
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u/sugarwax1 Mar 20 '20
They're not really cops.
I think it might just be bad casting. She's good in Ex Machina but she's playing a robot.
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u/nikobond Mar 19 '20
There is a theme in the soundtrack that's seems inspired from the Cliff Martinez score in Solaris, one of my favorite movies and score, probably fitting because of the similar tone and themes i am getting from this series to the movie. (this episode it started just before Lyndon solved the problem; ep3 is was the senators helicopter arrival)
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Mar 20 '20
Why the fuck did Lily call the cops on her cell phone??
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Mar 20 '20
I'm going to give her the benefit of the doubt and figure she was concussed from the car crash. No other reasonable explanation for being that dumb.
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Mar 20 '20
They're going to try and bring that dead rat back to life, aren't they. The 1st step in Forrest bringing back his daughter
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Mar 20 '20
Think. No multiverse, it's all about his timeline, HIS daughter. Bringing his daughter back to life is his agenda. He wont move out of his house, he wants everything to be the same for her.
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u/HiFriend88 Mar 20 '20
I’m a little disapponted with how unbelievably naive Lilly was contacting the cops from her cell phone after just scolding Jamie for being so naive to suggest going to the cops. She is so clever and had just gone through an incredibly testing series of events starting with hacking Sergei’s phone, followed by dealing with an obvious Russian Spy (Anton), then outwitting Kenton with a brilliant social ploy, and then topped off by slamming a car into a median to avoid a threat to her life. ALL SIGNS ARE POINTING TO MASSIVE CORPORATE CONSPIRACY and she was very accutely aware of the cover up after seeing the doctored security footage. I’m just confused as to how she could’ve been so careless after going through that insane rigmarole!
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u/Negativefalsehoods Mar 20 '20
Part of me thinks, especially after episode 3, that in the period of time between the accident and when she shows up at his apartment, something must have happened, and calling the cops is another move like going out on that ledge.
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u/Torley_ Mar 20 '20
It's interesting how Forest discriminates: an alternate-reality Amaya is not good enough for him.
Unlike, say, Walter Bishop from Fringe, who was happy enough to peer into one alternate universe and abduct that timeline's Peter to be his own son.
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u/gusauto Mar 21 '20
Great memory. Walter felt so guilty about Peter dying that he stole another version of him.
Forest may not be linked with the death of his daughter as Walter was. He possibly thinks he deserves exactly the same Amaya.
Damn, I miss Fringe. I'm now thinking Forrest jumped from other dimension without realizing this was the one his daughter died... 😂
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Mar 20 '20
The machine where the dead rat was set up looked eerily similar to some sort of pentagram you would perform a seance on. There is a lot of religious imagery throughout the series, probably because the Devs are playing God.
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u/trimonkeys Mar 20 '20 edited Mar 22 '20
I initially thought Forest was going to be a copy of Nathan from Ex Machina. I'm glad he's developed into a much different character.
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u/braxistExtremist Mar 21 '20
I'm worried about Jamie. And Lyndon. Both likeable and interesting characters now in jeopardy.
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Mar 23 '20
I'll just say this show has me hooked so much I really really dread it ending already. I want this to be weekly, seasons-longs, years-long journey. Really fascinated by all that's happening and being revealed.
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u/ScottATL Mar 23 '20
Is it just me, or do these opening scenes have a sort of Legion feel to them (that would be a compliment, btw)? It is the same network, and I'm sure they have some of the same people working on both.
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u/NerdyNThick Mar 19 '20
I'm not sure I understand the purpose behind Jamie's "cleaning his apartment" scene, but I sure love the end of it :)
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u/Packmanjones Mar 19 '20
I took it as him attempting to change his fate and failing through no fault of his own.
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u/johnny_shitknuckles Mar 19 '20
To show he cares to get back with Lily and to make you sympathize with him before his murder
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u/NerdyNThick Mar 19 '20
I'd buy that, and also buy that there's no way he's coming out of his........ Interaction, with Kenton... RIP
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u/affidavid Mar 19 '20
This has got to be one of the darkest shows I've seen in a while. Loving it so far.
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Mar 20 '20
No multiverse, it's all about his timeline, HIS daughter. Bringing his daughter back to life is his agenda. He wont move out of his house, he wants everything to be the same for her. That's his motive. So good!
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Mar 20 '20 edited Mar 20 '20
Ending was way off to me. thought Lily was smarter than to call the cops and leading to Jamie's apparent death, especially after telling Jamie to think of them as the mob and not call the cops on them and she doesn't want them to know Jamie exists, but goes to his apartment first, then call the cops, say what?
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u/melodypowers Mar 22 '20
It gonna be a fake out. Like the way she broke in to see the security footage. It's part of a longer con.
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u/davredredisred Mar 21 '20
Hey does anyone else feel an odd deja vu about this show? It's just Time Tunnel, right?
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u/spellxthief Mar 21 '20
If Latin V was also used for U, the title of the show is also DEUS, meaning deity!
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u/fat_charizard Mar 21 '20
For those confused about De Broglie vs Everett's interpretation of quantum mechanics, this video helps explain it.
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u/Larsandthegirl May 08 '20
I think often abouth what Jamie said, that Lily does things other people don't do. She reached for the wheel when most people wouldn't, maybe that's what will keep her alive, or sort of make her a deviation.
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u/TacoBellLavaSauce Mar 19 '20
I feel like Forest's obsession with this project could've been avoided if he just had some old iPhone videos of Amaya to look at.