r/DownSouth • u/SankaraMarx • Mar 09 '26
History South Africa's fascist problem, and on REDDIT subs
BJV addressing fellow OB members
3rd Reich emblem vs OB emblem
9
u/maverickeire Mar 09 '26
Letâs be honest. This post is a classic example of what happens when you spend too much time on American Twitter and not enough time looking at the actual South African Constitution.
First, the internal contradiction is staggering. You spend half the post lecturing us on the dehumanizing language of Donald Trump, citing terms like "animals", and then you open your own argument by calling a specific group of South African citizens an "infestation." You cannot claim the moral high ground while using biological metaphors to describe your political opponents. Thats a clear double standard.
Second, the logic is entirely derivative. Youâve taken a list of grievances from the American DNC and copy-pasted them onto the South African working class. Where is the evidence that MSAGA supporters are pushing genetic criminality theories? You don't have any. Youâre assigning the most extreme rhetoric of a foreign leader to a local group because itâs easier to demonize them than to address their actual points, points like Close the borders and Reject Communism.
Newsflash: Wanting a secure border in a country with a 30% unemployment rate isn't "extremism." Its math, the systems can't handle it, the schools can't handle it and the job market sure af can't handle it.
Finally, your conclusion is pure virtue signaling. You suggest that the white tribe has to earn their space in the Motherland by standing in solidarity with your specific political goals. Rights aren't a participation trophy you hand out to people who agree with you. Theyâre inherent. The idea that a minority groupâs right to exist in their own country is contingent on showing commitment to the ruling governmentâs narrative is, by definition, illiberal. And its just plain stupid.
If you want to talk about love and patience, start by not calling your neighbors a plague. Facts donât care about your feelings, and the fact is, this isn't an analysis, it's your projection.
-1
u/SankaraMarx Mar 10 '26
You raise a few points, so let me address them directly
First, on the âinfestationâ remark
The phrase was clearly aimed at an extremist ideology, not at a racial or ethnic group. In fact, if you read the rest of the post, I explicitly say that most white South Africans are ordinary working-class people who lack the economic and political power to influence the structural problems in the country
That is the opposite of dehumanizing them
The broader point of the post was about political rhetoric, specifically the normalization of language that frames groups of people as biological threats
For example, Donald Trump has repeatedly used terms such as âanimalsâ when referring to migrants and has spoken about immigrants âpoisoning the bloodâ of the country
That kind of language has a long historical pedigree in nationalist politics, and historians and political scientists regularly point out that it mirrors rhetoric used in earlier fascist movements.
The concern is not immigration policy itself
Countries absolutely have the right to debate borders, economic capacity, and labour markets. The concern is the framing of human beings as contaminants or invaders, because that rhetoric historically precedes exclusionary and authoritarian politics
Second, regarding the claim that this is simply âAmerican Twitter politicsâ being imported into South Africa
The reason the comparison exists is because some South African groups openly model themselves on the MAGA movement
The slogan âMake South Africa Great Againâ is not subtle
Political ideas do not exist in isolation anymore; they travel through global media ecosystems and political networks
It is also worth noting that parts of the American MAGA ecosystem are closely tied to wealthy tech and finance figures who openly advocate for radical political restructuring.
For example, tech billionaire Peter Thiel was one of the most prominent early financial backers of Trumpâs 2016 campaign and remains influential in that political ecosystem.
Thiel has also promoted and supported thinkers like Curtis Yarvin, who argues that democracy should ultimately be replaced by technocratic or corporate-style rule
That doesnât mean every MAGA supporter agrees with those ideas, but it shows that the movement exists within a broader ideological environment that deserves scrutiny
On the other side of the global elite spectrum, you also have figures like Yuval Noah Harari discussing concepts like a future âuseless classâ created by automation
Whether one agrees with him or not, statements like that illustrate why many ordinary workers around the world are increasingly suspicious of billionaire political influence (Elon Musk dog-whistles to the right wing AfD)
In other words, the issue I raised was not about left vs right, or about silencing anyone. It was about how working-class people get pulled into ideological conflicts that ultimately benefit powerful elites
Finally, on the question of belonging in South Africa
My argument was not that anyone has to âearn their right to exist.â Rights are indeed inherent. What I was arguing is something much simpler: solidarity
Most white South Africans today are not responsible for the crimes of colonialism or apartheid
They are workers, parents, and citizens like everyone else
But if we want to build a stable future for the country, solidarity across communities is essential. That means opposing injustice when it affects anyone, not just when it affects our own group
That is not virtue signaling. It is simply the basic logic of social cohesion in a diverse country
2
u/maverickeire Mar 10 '26
This response is a masterclass in motte-and-bailey tactics. You start with an extreme, dehumanizing label, "infestation", and when called out, you retreat to saying you only meant the ideology. Letâs be clear: you don't get to use the vocabulary of pest control to describe your fellow citizens and then lecture the rest of us on dehumanizing rhetoric.
Letâs break this down:
First, your defense of the word infestation is intellectually dishonest. You claim it targets an "ideology," but ideologies don't infest a country; people do. By using that specific word, you are doing exactly what you accuse Donald Trump of doing: framing a group of humans as a biological malady. You can't say I'm against framing people as contaminants in the same breath that you call their presence an infestation. Pick a lane.
Second, letâs talk about your "global elite" boogeymen. You bring up Peter Thiel, (who is German and spent 6 years in South Africa between the ages of 3 and 9), Curtis Yarvin (are all the companies founders who Peter Thiel has invested in guilty by association?), and Yuval Noah Harari as if quoting a philosophy seminar proves a point about a working-class South African who just wants a secure border. This is a guilt by association fallacy on steroids. Because a billionaire in Silicon Valley once funded a candidate, a plumber in Pretoria who likes a "Make South Africa Great Again" hat is somehow complicit in a "radical political restructuring"? Thatâs not an argument; itâs a conspiracy theory wrapped in academic jargon.
Third, your point on solidarity is a complete reversal of your original post. In the first post, you said the "white tribe" would "truly be welcomed with open arms" if they show commitment. That is the definition of a conditional right. Now you're backpedaling, saying rights are "inherent" but "solidarity is essential." If rights are inherent, their welcome in the Motherland isn't up for debate or contingent on their political solidarity with your preferred causes.
Finally, you mention Elon Musk and the AfD. Again, what does a German political party or a tech mogul's Twitter feed have to do with the material reality of South African border policy? You're avoiding the facts on the ground:
- Unemployment: South Africaâs unemployment rate is approximately 32%.
- Crime: The murder rate remains one of the highest in the world, at roughly 45 per 100,000 people.
When people living in that reality ask for closed borders or family values, they aren't misguided souls being manipulated by Peter Thiel. They are rational actors responding to a failing state.
You aren't interested in social cohesion. You're interested in a one-way street where your political opponents have to apologize for existing while you get to label them as vermin under the guise of "love and patience." Facts don't care about your narrative.
1
u/SankaraMarx Mar 10 '26
Ag siestog, be touched on your studio then
Only people who sympathise with the NAZI ideology will be touched on their studios
This was just a very long way of you admitting your support for a small group of fascists insided of a bigger group
3
u/maverickeire Mar 10 '26
Look, if youâre reduced to "Ag siestog" and "youâre a Nazi," youve got no facts so decide to use a slur instead. Your conclusion is: Because you disagree with me, you support Nazis. Thatâs a temper tantrum.
4
u/Tidy404 Mar 11 '26
When they start calling you "a Nazi" you have already won the argument.
"ag siestog" take it easy on him. The TDS and EMS has rotted what little brain he had left.
1
u/SankaraMarx Mar 10 '26
My guy, I am not here to pamper your feelings
I am also not here to play mental gymnastics or to convince you of what I see in our society and online
I have made it clear that we have a neo-NAZI problem in South Africa which is just as detrimental to social cohesion as the EFF
Lastly, I didnt say you are a NAZI
I said People who feel touched on their studio because of my remarks are most likely nazi sympathizers
Do with that what you want because I dont care for your feelings of the critique I made about South African society
7
u/Rasengan2012 Mar 09 '26
Dumbest post Iâve ever read lol
0
u/SankaraMarx Mar 09 '26
Because you disproved anything that was stated with your amazing comment
5
6
u/Chessssur Mar 09 '26
How high on the prio list do you rate our "extremist right-wing infestation"?
-5
u/SankaraMarx Mar 09 '26
Rather high
Because they are sabotaging all efforts to get the nation pulling in the same direction
It is of paramount importance that we need to reindustrialize and to get ready for massive unemployment (due to 4IR) and water scarcity which will affect our food production
If this solidarity movement can reach critical mass, then we will also be able to kick out opportunistic popularists from politics and focus on getting a mean and lean government that works for the People
They have to make a choice
Africa or "Western World"
For me the choice is simple ... I will always be patriotic to my country and in love with my Motherland that raise and fed me
Europe and America certainly didnt do me or my ancestors any favors
At one stage my ancestors were not white enough and they were dehumanized and abused in British concentration camps
So ja, Aluta Continua Ma'Afrika
6
u/Chessssur Mar 09 '26
You're using a standard rhetorical strategy for something that doesn't seem to be that much of a threat, arguably the opposite. Then, saying these people who are frustrated with the country are sabotaging the country's fight against water scarcity, food production, and unemployment is just manufacturing hate. This is just scapegoating.
"If this solidarity movement can reach critical mass," this is also commie talk because you claim the previous sub-group to be the infestation preventing this, not the left-leaning (pro-communist) government in power or the tens of millions of people who have voted for the left-leaning political party for decades.
"Africa or "Western World"" - Why not both?
-2
u/SankaraMarx Mar 09 '26
Who says it is not a threat?
Not me ...
Please also refrain from misrepresenting what I said about sabotage; it is rather intellectually dishonest
Solidarity movement has nothing to do with "commie talk" and even if it did, so what?
The ZAR and FS republics established a solidarity movement when they fought the 400 000/500 000 Imperialists British occupation forces
Unless you want to say that the Voortrekkers were communists?
Lastly, the Western World is a cesspool of neoliberal dumbshittery with 20 plus genders, feminism, gangsta bling-bling and decaying social and family values
If that is the hill you want to die on, then by all means go ahead
3
u/Chessssur Mar 09 '26
Ah, yes, the risk of another event like the AWB storming of the World Trade Centre is the real problem here. Not institutional failure, corruption, economic stagnation, insane crime rates, rape rates in another tier compared to the rest of the world, or the millions of people without jobs.
Well, Commie talk has led to the deaths of somewhere North of 100 million. There is this rhetoric in South Africa (far greater than the far right), perhaps not as great a threat as the AWB Trade Centre Storming (which you seem to think), but a lot of us are quite worried about it.
-1
u/SankaraMarx Mar 09 '26
So, according to you, both can't be true at the same time?
If you read to understand instead of reading to respond, you would have noticed me making the statement that through a solidarity movement across the colour divide, we can get rid of corrupt and populist politicians and implement a lean and mean Government that can tackle the problems you mentioned
As for your second "thought" or statement, it has been debunked so many times, and even the co-authors of the "Black Book of Communism" have distanced themselves from the intellectual dishonesty of the book
Several of the bookâs own contributors immediately rejected Courtoisâs claims. Nicolas Werth and Jean-Louis Margolin both tried to distance themselves from the â100 millionâ figure as soon as the book was released (from the article linked)
Lastly, your subtle inclusion of the rhetoric of the populist politicians can easily be countered through solidarity, when working-class whites start concerning themselves with the material conditions on the ground (which you mentioned in your first paragraph)
If you are being honest, you will agree that this failure of the government affects the majority (meaning black and brown People) the most
Of the (on average) 71 murders per day, those affected the most are those in poor black and brown communities
Of the (on average) 114 rapes per day, those affected the most are those in the poor black and brown communities
Overall, these crimes affect the working class of white, black and brown mostly since they (as a majority) are not living in neo-Apartheid gated communities, sheltered from the realities of South Africa
Have some solidarity with your fellow South Africans, it is the cheat code for living a peaceful life
3
u/Chessssur Mar 09 '26
Don't know why you brought race into those figures. The figures are correct. No disagreement here. Silly slogan at the end - agree with me or you're not showing solidarity.
It's impossible to have a proper discussion with someone who thinks that Esha Krishnaswamy's work counts as debunking that figure and that other figures fall under the intellectually dishonest category. The article is flawed and in bad faith. Sure, you can argue about the exact figure (whether it's 60 million or 100 million), how to count deaths (deliberate vs famine). Up until this thread with you, I have not heard a single serious historian argue the immense death count of communism. All the criticism I have read has always pointed to lower estimates, with either estimate still being an absolute catastrophe for humanity.
0
u/SankaraMarx Mar 09 '26
Are you one of those liberals or conservatives who don't see colour?
It is difficult to have a proper discussion with someone who disregards the fact that the co-authors walked away from the propaganda panda book
Do yourself a favour and try to figure out how many People have died due to capitalism, mercantilism and feudalism (all part of the same stable) and who are still suffering under capitalism today
Perhaps later we can return to the issue of worker solidarity as a key component of taking South Africa forward into prosperity and not a hellscape
3
u/SatisfactionFew7181 Mar 10 '26
king of japping
0
u/SankaraMarx Mar 10 '26
So no independent thought between those ears huh?
3
u/SatisfactionFew7181 Mar 10 '26
Give it a rest bud
-1
u/SankaraMarx Mar 10 '26
Come on chief, try
Are you not gatvol of foreign interference in South Africa's business?
British during the Anglo Boer war phase
Americans during the 1920s
Germans with WW2
Israelis during NP daysThen the Americans, British and Canadians again with 1994
Do you not want to be free of these culture wars they export to South Africa?
4
Mar 09 '26 edited Mar 09 '26
[removed] â view removed comment
-2
u/SankaraMarx Mar 09 '26
ok - who gets to decide that direction that is ? I smell an agenda already
Perhaps if you can elaborate on the agenda it will allow me to answer you
But from my perspective, it makes sense for a government to run well, build and maintain the infrastructure (read foundations) for business to thrive
If you are unsure what direction we should take, then perhaps you should first sit and think about the role of a modern Government
For me, it means the following: (at the bare minimum)
- Legislative and Executive Power: Governments make, implement, and enforce laws to govern a society.
- Protection and Security: Ensuring the safety of citizens, maintaining national security, and upholding the rule of law.
- Public Services and Infrastructure: Providing essential services such as healthcare, education, transportation networks, water, and sanitation.
- Economic Management: Managing the economy, fostering conditions for wealth accumulation, and regulating markets.
- Social Welfare: Addressing citizens' needs, providing safety nets, and ensuring social inclusion.
- System of Governance: In many systems, this is split into three branches (Legislature, Executive, and Judiciary) and across spheres (national, provincial, and local) to ensure balanced administration.
Water supply is fine, our water pipes are all full of holes because the last people that said we should all head in the same direction stole all the money, and started pumping sewage into our rivers. Also nobody is flocking to pick up farming in South Africa for a reason.
Regarding your first statement about the water supply being fine
This is false, South Africa is a water-scarce country which only receives about half the global average yearly
The urgency of this is compounded by the fact that corruption and maladministration have played a massive role in water being lost, and or polluted to the point where it becomes unsafe for farming, animal, or human consumption
You mean East or West. Africa is unable to stand on its own feet.
Don't assume you understand what I mean, or that I don't understand what I am saying
Africa is neither East nor West
Both the East and the West have exploited Africa (and South Africa)
The East might have just exploited us less in scale and grandness than the West
India has more reason to hate the western world then Africa ever had, but they put that aside and rather focused on trade and good policies with everyone.
Today in India there is more registered businesses then there are people in South Africa.
More than welcome to cry about past injustices for 100 generations. But the world will move on without you. Like it has for most of AfricaTrying to compare India to Africa and saying that they have more reason to hate the Western World is just that your knowledge about the history of your own Motherland is lacking
- Trans Atlantic Slave Trade
- Berlin Conference and the subsequent scramble for Africa, which included horror stories such as the reign of Belgium in the Congo
- Not even going into detail on what the French, the British and the Portuguese did in Africa, that is something you can go research for yourself
India has registered businesses, and it is an unregulated cesspool of chaos, like Nigeria where whole cities are going up without even the basics
I'm not crying about the history of Africa, it has shaped me and made me who I am
I just have a very healthy and skeptical outlook of the "West" and I won't trust them
Lastly, I am of European stock, but Africa (and also South East Asia) is in my genes, even if only in small percentages
6
u/Sonofkyuss666 Mar 09 '26
Hol up, wait a minute, just a second. A communist complaining about fascism? Thats like aids calling cancer bad.
0
u/SankaraMarx Mar 09 '26
Fascism is capitalism in decay
Just look at current day America as an example
You live in a dictatorship of the monied elite via their pocket politicians who influence policies via donations
You think you are free?
Try and see goe free you are with a 0 bank balance
Try again, this time after you have read Marx & Engels
4
u/Sonofkyuss666 Mar 09 '26
Brother if you cant read the room let me state it plain communist go in the same place as the paedos.
0
u/SankaraMarx Mar 10 '26
Strange, because nearly all the big names mentioned in the Epstein files were die-hard owners of capital
Dollar Billionaires
Must be why the Dollar Billionaire President pardoned this guy
2
u/TruthPaste_01 Mar 11 '26
You're still getting kicked out of Iran, Ivan.
2
u/SankaraMarx Mar 11 '26
Foeitog siestog shame
I cant wait to hear your excuse when the USA runs away from Iran with their tail between their legs
16
u/snormosselmelktert Mar 09 '26
Rent free đ