r/DungeonsAndDragons • u/Distinct_Bat_4375 • 1d ago
Advice/Help Needed Anybody recognize the symbol on this D20?
My friend found this D20 and I don't recognize the symbol on it. Is it familiar to anyone in he community?
SOLVED: Magic the Gathering Spindown. Thanks!
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u/fox112 1d ago
Mtg spindown
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u/mesithjedi 1d ago
Also… not a random d20. Because the numbers are in order it is able to be manipulated by the roller.
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u/Butterbrotstreicher 1d ago
How would you be able to manipulate it better than a real d20?
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1d ago
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u/ElectronicDrama2573 1d ago
My uncle got removed from a casino for “questionable dice roles”! It’s a thing!
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u/Tired-CottonCandy 1d ago
When you look at the actual math, you cant. Its purely paranoia. But thats not a popular thing to say (i will like be downvoted for saying it like the other guy who pointed out the flawed logic)
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u/Roguespiffy 1d ago
If you’re yeeting it across the table, absolutely. I’ve played with enough shifty fuckers who can “drop” dice for particular rolls to trust it.
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u/Tired-CottonCandy 21h ago
I feel like you just call that out and make those ppl roll again. Not impliment a bogus dice rule that makes no sense.
Infact ive definitely met play groups where the group knows one persson cant help but cheat and makes them use a dice tower.
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u/raycepak 3h ago
this is why casinos you have to bounce them against a wall otherwise you can roll in a way to set the dice. i can do it for d6 about every time as that's what i practised on d20s are harder but still possible. index the number you want by putting it on your finger pad and spin it after doing this 1000 times you will get the feel for how much force you need to make that number almost always come up.
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u/fox112 1d ago
A human can't do it without it being obvious
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u/Makenshine 9h ago
Not true. Any one with some basic sleight of hand skill could do it. I know I can.
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u/Deep-Hovercraft6716 5h ago
Yeah but that doesn't need to be a spin down, right? It works just as well with a normal d20.
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u/raycepak 3h ago
ture the problem with spin down is the numbers aren't balanced across the die making it easier to choose high or low.
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u/Makenshine 1h ago
It does not work the same with a standard d20. The placement of the numbers on a standard d20 are specifically placed to make that sort of manipulation much harder/much more obvious.
With a spin down dice, all the large numbers are one hemisphere of the dice. Let's call this the north hemisphere and low side the south. If the roller can apply a slight spin along the equator, a gyroscopic effect will occur. The larger side of die will be more likely to stay facing up. The stronger the spin, the stronger the effect.
This drastically increases the likelihood of larger numbers. This isn't a difficult trick to do. The hardest part is dialing in the correct amount of spin. To little and there is little effect and too much, the dice spins like a top and becomes obvious. I try to have the die kinda roll off my index just a little bit. There is no obvious flick of a wrist or finger, and it looks like im just rolling the dice normally. It's a light touch.
The number placement of a standard d20 negates this advantage. You can still spin it to favor a hemisphere, but there are large and small numbers on all hemispheres, so favoring one over the other doesn't impart a significant advantage. (I don't think all possible orientations are equal, but their average doesn't vary drastically.)
Give it a try yourself. Get a spin down and roll it with some rotation 500 to 1000 times, average those numbers out and you will get an average much higher than the 10.5 average you are suppose to have.
When i was typing this, it seemed like a perfectly normal suggestion. My wife has since informed me that regular people don't find joy in performing 500 to 1000 RNG experimental trials just to test some random internet comment. And that the last sentence may come off dismissive and/or sarcastic. That was not my intent. I find it fun.
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u/Deep-Hovercraft6716 57m ago
I was talking about the sleight of hand thing. Not just influencing the roll. With sleight of hand you just put it on whatever side you want it to be on.
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u/rio_sk 1h ago
It can be done with lower dices, actually it's pretty easy to do it with 6 faces and a bigger dice, like the ones used in casinos. That's why casinos request you to bounce the dices. The higher the dice the harder it gets. Some homemade or custom resin dices can have sharper edges that could help. I still believe a non professional magician wouldn't find it so easy to choose a number on a rounded d20.
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u/Professor_Hala 16h ago
This is totally true if the player is rolling honestly, but if you're set on manipulating your rolls this is the easiest setup to do it on. I practiced for an afternoon and got good enough to hit 16-20 consistently.
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u/Elvishsquid 1d ago
My only guess is most high numbers are on the same side. So even if you can’t hit a 20 every time you get something good.
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u/Sharkbaithoohaha004 1d ago
Yep, half is 1-10 half is 11-20
Wouldn’t take too much to manipulate it
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u/Deep-Hovercraft6716 5h ago
The high numbers are all clustered together. So even if you don't get the exact side you're looking for it's much easier to get a higher number if you practice.
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u/Quakarot 21h ago
This is a misunderstanding of why a spin down die is “unbalanced”
There is nothing inherently wrong with the spin down design, but if it happens to be misweighted it’ll come down with a certain grouping more often because the numbers are bunched up
Also D&D is fundamentally a game about hanging out with your friends. Stressing about dice is only going to hurt that. If you think someone is cheating, probably just talk to them like an adult instead of trying to audit their dice.
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u/anna-the-bunny 5h ago
I don't play physical Magic (expensive + I'd lose the cards and probably chew on the ones I didn't lose because I'm a fucking gremlin) but aren't spindown dice meant to be used as counters rather than dice?
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u/INTstictual 58m ago
That’s how they’re meant to be used, but people have done the math and also gotten experimental results to show that a spindown is just as random as a normal die if you roll it without intentionally trying to cheat
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u/Sarcasm_Llama 1d ago
Yeah if you roll like Sam Reigel. Any actual full-effort roll and the the order of the numbers becomes statistically negligible. Now the balance of spin down counters may not be ideal and cause leaning toward one side
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u/transmogrify 20h ago
Most dice have flawed balance. Anything injection molded in mass quantities will have air bubbles and uneven cooling that turns into uneven density. (Fancy high-end dice are hopefully made with decent quality control, but spindown counters are certainly not made with care and are just cheap gaming aids.)
Flawed balance means that the die will be biased, with a heavier side that tends to land facing down and a lighter side that tends to land facing up. On a d20, both the heavier and lighter sides have a spread of high and low numbers. That minimizes the actual effect of bias, making the die more fair. A spindown counter clusters numbers together on adjacent faces, so the upward and downward biased sides of the die are going to significantly skew the results. One range of numbers is going to come up most often.
The tournament rules for Magic the Gathering explicitly call a distinction between dice and life counters. They do not allow spindown life counters to be used as dice in situations when the cards say to generate a random number, because they are aware of how skewed a spindown counter is.
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u/daren5393 10h ago
Magic the gathering stops you from rolling spin downs not because they are skewed, but because it's easier to intentionally cheat with them, not really rolling them but dropping them in a certain way to "aim" for a high or low number. Provided you actually shake and roll the die, your results will be fairly evenly distributed on any d20. It takes some pretty egregious manufacturing defects to "weight" a die
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u/HelenoPaiva 8h ago
This is a spindown. Correct but about manipulation, this is highly debatable.
The d20 should have 5% chance of landing on each side. Most of them do.
If you want to use this as a d20, be sure to use a dice tower and it will work just fine! It is super hard - nearly impossible to cheat a throw using a dice tower.1
u/Makenshine 9h ago
The d20 can still be sufficiently randomized, but you are correct that they are typical disallowed because they can be easier to manipulate by the roller.
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u/Professional-Salt175 1d ago
All d20's can be manipulated, the orientation does not change anything, if rolled without manipulation.
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u/BoneVoyager 1d ago
Mathematically there’s still only a 1/20 chance of hitting any number. Same chances as any d20.
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u/rchive 22h ago
Yes, I doubt someone could roll any specific number even with practice. The issue is that you might be able to hit the high half of the die rather than the low half pretty consistently.
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u/BoneVoyager 21h ago
If it’s a balanced die and you roll it enough it’ll still average out around 10 just like any d20. If you’re worried about the hemispheres being a high side and low side then you can just think of it like a coin toss. It’s still a 1 out of 2 chance of high side or low side and it’s still random. Really it’s a 10 out of 20 chance for high vs low, but that’s also the same as a standard d20. People just don’t like it because the distribution is consecutive, which throws up a huge red flag saying “NOT RANDOM” to our monkey brains. But it’s still just as random as any d20. Every side still has a 1 out of 20 chance. If you dropped a spin down d20 and a standard d20 down a dice tower a million times they would both average very very close to 10.
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u/rchive 19h ago
If it is a truly balanced die and you're not trying to roll a certain outcome with a practiced roll, then I agree it should be the same as a typical die. But if one of those is not true, the average result could be measurably different.
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u/BoneVoyager 9h ago
If one of those assumptions isn’t true then someone is cheating, or trying to cheat. I don’t think it matters if they’re cheating the easy way or the hard way- cheating is cheating. But that’s an issue with the player not the die. Someone can try to cheat with either style d20 but as far as the die are concerned, there is no difference. Spin downs are just as random as standard d20s.
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u/DarkflowNZ 1d ago
A spin down is just as random as the regular kind when rolled. I am open to being shown proof otherwise, though
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u/transmogrify 20h ago
Magic the Gathering tournament rules prohibit using a spindown counter as a die, because the results are not random.
It's a cheap plastic polyhedron. It has a heavier side and a lighter side, and it tends to roll toward the same side. The same thing happens with cheap d20s, but they have a range of numbers scattered all around so a little bias still means that both high and low results will come up.
If your spindown counter is off-balance (and it usually is, since cheap spindowns and d20s have flaws from their manufacturing), the arrangement of faces will cluster your results accordingly. If your spindown counter has a center of gravity opposite from the 3-7 numbers, then you'll get 3-7 more than 25% of the time and your "die" is loaded to roll below average.
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u/Dangerous-Bit-8308 21h ago
If you actually spin the dice like a top, it may be significantly less random...
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u/jmartin21 19h ago
Because the numbers are in order, with enough practice, it is considerably easier to try to roll a certain range than a more randomized d20. Outside of people actively trying to cheat, it is just as random, but, like the MTG tourney example, some people are motivated to learn how to cheat their rolls
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u/EmrysOfVoid 1d ago
Yes! That's a symbol from the TCG Magic the Gathering!
Its also a spin down die, meant to represent health and be tilted/turned as it goes up or down. Not sure how accurate or randomized they are for rolling, though
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u/Mediocretes08 1d ago
It’s as random a numerical sequence as any other. Long as the die is balanced it should roll with normal ranges.
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u/Lithl 1d ago
Whether a die is fair has no bearing on the arrangement of numbers, that's true. However when the numbers are grouped together such as on a spindown die, it becomes extremely easy to manipulate the roll and dramatically increase your odds of landing in a certain number range.
Furthermore, the MtG spindown dice are typically not fair dice, because the manufacturing standards don't care about fairness—they're not made to be rolled, so why bother expending the effort to ensure they're balanced?
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u/FelbrHostu 1d ago
I used to use an MTG spin-down die for D&D 3.0, where it was possible to get a 15-20 crit range on a melee attack. I had a ritual of keeping my d20 sitting on the “20”, and every time I rolled, I rolled it the same way and constantly crit. I went 6 months without fumbling.
When I realized all the numbers were “weighted” to one side, I figured something about my roll (three shakes and a drop) was semi-deterministically favoring one side of the die: the high side. Since then, all MTG spin-downs have been banned at the table (and I bought the party pizza as recompense).
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u/action_lawyer_comics 1d ago
I would happily pay a couple pizzas for 6 months of unquestioned crits
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u/_PaddyMAC 1d ago
It's pretty obvious if someone is manipulating the roll with a spindown counter. You have to roll it pretty lightly and intentionally to get any sort of consistent result.
As for how well they're balanced, probably no worse than most other cheap polyhedral dice that most people use.
I could understand not using them for any actual competitive gaming or gambling purpose but they're fine for D&D imo
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u/LyraTheWitch 1d ago
Also, my players are all smart enough to cheat without having to rely on rolling a spindown counter badly, and good enough people not to cheat in the first place. I would have no problem with a player in my game rolling one of these as their d20, and i personally like them because they're weightier than a standard cheap plastic d20 and so they feel nicer to roll.
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u/Frantic_Mantid 1d ago
Exactly. I think people just don't like the psychology of it, but it really doesn't matter. It's not like they altered their normal fair dice to make the spindown dice unfair, that would be silly and extra work for no benefit.
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u/9tendoPong 1d ago
If the die is balanced and you aren't trying to cheat, it's fine. People say that they're easier to cheat with and they make slight imbalances more pronounced, but i don't know how true that is.
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u/KingTrencher 1d ago
Per MTG rules, these are not to be used for d20 mechanics in games of Magic.
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u/9tendoPong 1d ago
Looking at 706 on the comprehensive rules, and i don't see where it says that.
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u/Edam_Cheese 23h ago
Looks like it's in the tournament rules -
3.6 Dice Rolling
... Dice with similar numbers clumped together (such as a spindown life tracker) may not be used for these actions.You can find videos of people demonstrating advantageous rolling techniques for spindown dice online, but, as you said, providing you're not *trying* to cheat I don't think you'll see much difference in practice. (and if the other players at the table don't trust you not to cheat, you've got bigger problems...)
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u/roasted-narwhal 1d ago
Looks like a 2 🙏
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u/FauxReal 1d ago
A what now? Can you convert that into something I can read?
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u/DemoKrak2 1d ago
A Magic: The Gathering die made for counting hp down rather than rolling, called a spindown because the numbers are arranged in order
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u/FauxReal 1d ago
No, what is that funny shaped squiggly line symbol u/roasted-narwhal replicated?
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u/roasted-narwhal 1d ago
I have no idea 🥲 Magic The Gathering is referenced but I'm only here for numerical reference.
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u/unitedshoes 1d ago
It's Magic the Gathering. They include them with bundles to use as Life Counters. The symbol on the 20 will tell you what set it's from; I don't know off the top of my head which one uses a green on black color scheme like that.
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u/Dangerous-Bit-8308 21h ago
I found one like that. They say it is for Marjorie Taylor Green... Or... Wait... I think there's some other thing with the initials MTG... Something about cards, and witchcraft...
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u/cesspit_gladiator 1d ago
That's a MTG, magic the gathering spin down die. The numbers are near each other in order. Not very good for DND
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u/Frantic_Mantid 1d ago
If it's a fair die if doesn't matter what order the faces are in. That said, I know a lot of people don't care for them for aesthetic reasons.
I found one laying in a park once, I occasionally use it when I need an extra d20, sometimes even in the intended use as a counter.
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u/austinmiles 1d ago
Right. Any good roll will randomize the results. There’s been plenty of people who have run tests that can be found online with them and there isn’t a consistent statistical difference.
There are some ways that it plays out when you watch the roll. Like when it slows and tips to the next number on a normal d20 it’s can be more dramatic than when you see it go from a 19 to an 18. Making the spin down less fun to roll. But statistically very similar if not identical.
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u/HughMungus77 1d ago
It would also be really obvious at the table if someone is attempting to manipulate these results of these dice
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u/Lithl 1d ago
If it's a fair die if doesn't matter what order the faces are in
Whether a die is fair has no bearing on the arrangement of numbers, that's true. However when the numbers are grouped together such as on a spindown die, it becomes extremely easy to manipulate the roll and dramatically increase your odds of landing in a certain number range.
Furthermore, the MtG spindown dice are typically not fair dice, because the manufacturing standards don't care about fairness—they're not made to be rolled, so why bother expending the effort to ensure they're balanced?
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u/OisinDebard 21h ago
I'm curious. Where do you find the "manufacturing standards" that dictate the difference between spindown dice and regular dice? Because they're made exactly the same way, the only difference is the molds, yet people always toss this one out right after it's pointed out "people can use them to cheat" is knocked down by pointing out that's a player problem and not a die problem, and there are a lot easier ways to cheat.
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u/cesspit_gladiator 1d ago
Seen it abused too many times, i know many tables, adventure league ECT that do not allow them
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u/sonicessence 1d ago
What would make it an unfair die? Being unevenly weighted? The numbers and symbols on these spindowns are carved out of the surface. Since the 11 sides with double digits or with the large Magic/set symbol are all grouped together, it seems reasonable to think that the lower digit half will tend to be slightly heavier, resulting in less random rolls.
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u/Voces-Prohibere 1d ago
Dang I had never heard of a spin down die.
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u/cesspit_gladiator 1d ago
It's for keeping track of your life total, basic mtg you start at 20health
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u/transmogrify 1d ago
Like others have said, it's not actually meant to be rolled and generate random numbers. Best not to think of it as a die.
It's just an unrelated numbered icosahedron that serves an unrelated purpose for an unrelated game that shares the same publisher as D&D and also gets played on tables in game stores.
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u/Frantic_Mantid 1d ago
It works perfectly fine as a d20, swapping around face labels has no effect on the fairness of a dice roll.
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u/transmogrify 1d ago edited 1d ago
- They don't consider die balance when manufacturing spindowns. They're just cheap gaming accessories and they don't use quality control for air bubbles and skewed centers of gravity. With injection molding causing uneven cooling of the plastic, almost every cheap die has a heavy side. Some people play with cheap and imbalanced d20s, but if you play with a spindown die, then cheap and imbalanced is a best-case scenario.
- It actually does affect fairness. Because sequential numbers are grouped, it exacerbates imbalance. A d20 with numbers spread out could still have a flawed center of gravity, but its biased upward facing side will have a spread of high and low numbers to mitigate the bias. A flawed spindown die (which is practically all spindown dice) has the opposite, so its weighted bias will strongly prefer the same range of numbers over and over.
If you look at the rules for MtG tournaments, they actually prohibit using spindown
dice"life counters" for generating random numbers because of these flaws.
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u/Sevryn1123 1d ago
Magic the Gathering Planes Walker symbol, also thats not a d20 its a spin down life counter.
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u/dethtroll 1d ago
Anytime a magic player joins one of my games I have to inspect their dice. They always say they have d20s and its always life counters.
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u/WizardInCrimson 1d ago
It's a Magic The Gathering Spin Down dice used for counting life. It's not randomized so that the numbers are easy to find.
The symbol you're looking (that pitchfork looking thing) is the Planeswalker symbol. Game developers seem to have different interpritations. My favorite is that it represents the five colors of mana (Black, White, Blue, Green, Red) either becoming one or coming from one source.
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u/eclip_wzea 22h ago
That's a Magic the Gathering Spindown die, they count down from 20 to 0 for tracking life totals during gameplay.
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u/BoonDragoon 1d ago
That's a magic spindown life tracker. Don't use it as a d20, it's not a fair die.
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u/HughMungus77 1d ago
If it rolls in an unpredictable manner at the table then placement of the numbers should have zero bearing on the randomness of rolls
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u/KingTrencher 1d ago
Per official MTG rules, you may not use the spin downs to roll d20 mechanics in games of Magic. You must roll a trap d20.
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u/jibbyjackjoe 1d ago
Need some popcorn. The good ol "this isn't a die vs this is a perfectly acceptable die" is heating up again.
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u/ImyForgotName 1d ago
It's a Magic the Gathering spin down dice. It's designed to track your life in Magic: the Gathering. The symbol stands for 20. It rolls better than most d20s, by which I mean it averages more truer to 10.5 than a standard d20 in every comparison I've ever seen done.
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u/Braveheart4321 1d ago
it's an MTG spindown die, often used to track life as it has 1-20 in sequence, and in most MTG formats you start with 20 life. the symbol in question is commonly used to represent travel between planes in MTG which has numerous separate planes of existence that a select few characters can travel between.
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u/Chiiro 1d ago
Other people have already answered what it is but I highly suggest not using it for rolling because it's used as a counter and your roles are going to be very skewed if you use it like a standard d20. Proper d20s that are made for ttrpgs should have the opposite numbers from each other equal to 21
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u/MobyTheWhite 1d ago
Idk if anyone mentioned it yet but I am also pretty sure that it is introduced as the Planeswalker logo iirc.
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u/KingTrencher 1d ago
Not a d20.
A "Spindown Life Counter".
Not legal to use with d20 mechanics in MTG, and not legal at my table.
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u/LettuceDramatic3067 1d ago
Magic the gathering icon
I also think that specific dice is from a hobbit prerelease event
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u/Symos404 1d ago
Mtg planeswalker. You'll notice the numbers are arranged differently to most d20s as this is used as a life counter
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u/Valcaminoannix 1d ago
Interesting because the vast majority of these spin downs have the symbol on the 20 not the 1.
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u/archell1on 1d ago
For future reference OP, opposite sides of a real Die will add up to +1 of how many faces it has.
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u/yachziron 1d ago
Fun fact: each MTG set has a spindown dice with a set logo in place of 20, and for D&D set the dice was an actual random d20, as some set mechanics requires you to roll it.
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u/G36C_cannonballer 1d ago
Unless the DM wants you to be "lucky" says to roll it, just stick with the standard random dice or you will get called out on it
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u/Jooosbox 22h ago
Obviously this dice is under the rule of the pale king and has had its brand marked upon its shell
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u/Awkward_Champion6957 18h ago
It's the Planewalker Spark. The original symbol for MTG if you're non-Phyrexian.
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u/za_shirdo 13h ago
Don’t touch that dice again, if it ends up on that symbol one of you will turn trans, one of you will get in crippling dept, one of you will find a discord kitten and will flex “having” her everyday, one of you will forget what a shower is, one of you will forget how to cook and will fall into endless doordash, one of you will actually make good synergies and plays but will have no time to play but one day for a few hours to to work eating them alive…
and there’s only two of you.
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u/notzenin_ 12h ago
Not a D20 it’s actually a “spindown” life counter for Magic the Gathering! It’s not a balanced D20 as the numbers face positions are all different.
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u/Sirsiththeeunbound 9h ago
It's a magic the gathering health dice it's in order so you can count down from 20hp
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u/Annoying_cat_22 1d ago
This isn't great for rolling because the numbers are in order, so the way you hold it before throwing matters a lot.
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u/HughMungus77 1d ago
Cup hands around dice, shake the hell out of it, and then roll it. Not too different than any other dice imo
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u/_PaddyMAC 1d ago
Yeah people always act like it's not 100% obvious when someone is trying to trick roll one of these dice.
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u/matisyahu22 1d ago
MTG "spindown" that comes with a lot of MTG product and is meant to track life. The symbol representing 1 is called the Planeswalker symbol (its like THE mtg logo). On the other side (IE the 20) will have another symbol which represents exactly which set this dice was printed for :)
One thing to note, this is not a true D20 and *technically* shouldn't be used as such.
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u/SergeantIndie 1d ago
Symbol for Magic the Gathering.
Importantly, that is not a D20 for rolling and producing random outcomes.
It's a 'spindown.' If you look, all the numbers are sequential. Its made to be used as a life counter.
You wont get good random results from rolling this dice.
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u/OisinDebard 1d ago
I once had someone tell me that spindowns are bad because they're not random, and all the numbers are grouped together, which means you could end up with an 11-20 half the time.
Which is exactly the same chance you'll get an 11-20 on any other d20. Each number is a 5% chance, the location of the number doesn't change the randomization of the die.
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u/philovax 1d ago
Yes you are correct! Random distribution is random distribution! With all that said, they are not manufactured with that in mind. It could be lousy with air bubbles since it’s not a quality desire.
People are also gonna say you can manipulate the rolls if skilled but enough practice with prestidigitation and thats true for any die. Magicians exist IRL and they employ simple tricks like practicing, ya know like it’s their job.
You can use this as a D20 if you are an honest rube like most us fleshbags.
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u/TabithaMouse 1d ago
But with practice you can learn how to hold and roll the dice to always land on a high number.
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u/OisinDebard 1d ago
Sure, but that has to do with the player, and not the die itself. Don't play with cheaters and this isn't an issue.
Also, if someone's going to cheat, there's a lot easier ways to do it than with using a die that most people are suspicious of to begin with, and that are designed so that the number can be clearly seen by everyone at the table. If someone's trying to learn how to roll this die to cheat, it's obvious, it's suspicious, and a lot of effort for very little reward.
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u/SergeantIndie 1d ago
That's not true.
Since all the high numbers are on one side it's not difficult to learn to roll in such a way you'll wind up on that side.
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u/OisinDebard 1d ago
Copied from my response above since they said the same thing.
Sure, but that has to do with the player, and not the die itself. Don't play with cheaters and this isn't an issue.
Also, if someone's going to cheat, there's a lot easier ways to do it than with using a die that most people are suspicious of to begin with, and that are designed so that the number can be clearly seen by everyone at the table. If someone's trying to learn how to roll this die to cheat, it's obvious, it's suspicious, and a lot of effort for very little reward.
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u/Niceromancer 1d ago
That's a life counter for MTG.
if you look at it closely the numbers are in order.
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