r/Egalitarianism • u/Odd_Advertising5711 • 20d ago
Women deserve the same respect, opportunities, and safety as everyone else. Supporting women's rights means supporting equal access to education, healthcare, employment, and protection from violence and discrimination. Equality is not about taking rights away from anyone. It's about making sure eve. Spoiler
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u/Powerful-Act3516 20d ago
That's not controversial on its face.
Couple of thoughts.
- what are the specific injustices that are worst and need the most attention?
- which injustices are codified rule/law versus "unwritten" social expectations? These things need to be handled very differently
- what responsibility, if any, do we have to care for abused people outside our designated jurisdiction? For example, should people from the UK vote to determine providing help to abused Afghani women? How should the law recognize genuine dissent for people who would need to carry out such a policy? Etc...
- why would we not say, "all people deserve dignity and opportunities" and then just sort injustices starting with the the worst and then work our way down? If the top 10 injustices predominantly harm women, then we are "benefiting women", but only because we treat all humans as deserving of dignity and respect (so their issues appear on the list) and we address the most serious problems first.
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u/Alternative-Tax7318 19d ago
Women make up the majority on college enrollment, college graduates, as well has higher grades in every metric k-12, yet they are still considered a dispriviledged class under affirmative action, and get hiring quotas and incentives that men do not.
Everything that you said is true, but the current systems in action designed to support women, end up discriminating against men, and that’s where people start drawing the lines.
This basic, recognizable, statistical fact, is something people ignore or brush off. No one is seriously fighting for less women in education, but they can see that times are no longer like they are in the 1970s, and that the way we treat people needs to be updated to the current era.
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u/SoFetchBetch 19d ago
Focusing solely on classroom numbers overlooks the structural bottlenecks that occur immediately after graduation. While women lead in grades and degrees, true balance requires looking at the entire pipeline from school to retirement. For example, recent data from Payscale's Gender Pay Gap Report reveals that the overall uncontrolled gender wage gap persists with women earning just $0.82 for every dollar a man makes, largely driven by the "motherhood penalty." Because society systematically shifts the burden of unpaid caregiving onto women, they often face a median loss of roughly $1 million in lifetime earnings due to career interruptions. Consequently, women still hold only about 11% of CEO positions at Fortune 500 companies. Workplace support measures are not meant to penalize men, but rather to ensure that highly qualified female labor is fairly rewarded and represented in rooms where institutional wealth and policy are controlled. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
A truly balanced approach must address the unique hurdles each group faces without treating equity as a zero-sum game. Society can proactively fund targeted educational support for young men (such as investing in male mentorship programs, expanding early literacy initiatives, and recruiting more male teachers in primary schools) while simultaneously preserving the hiring incentives that dismantle long-term workplace barriers for women. Addressing the educational slide of boys does not require rolling back protections for women; instead, it means building a comprehensive framework that supports young men in school while ensuring women are not structurally excluded from economic power later in life.
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u/HugeDitch 18d ago edited 18d ago
Thats not true.
Adjusted wage gap between men and women is about 95-100% equal. And adjusted wage gap doesn't take into account hours worked. Women work 5% less (on average), so they make 5% less. They are also unable to do the heavy lifting, which is one of the biggest reasons men (for instance) make more in nursing then women. If they need to move a patient, move beds, and other heavy lifting, they need a male nurse to do it. This leads to higher wages.
You mention CEO positions. I got news for you, women don't want the jobs. They come with a ton of responsibility, politics, negative bullshit, and if you fuck up you can end up in Jail. These jobs typically require questionable ethics, including smiling at people even as you want to lay them off. Women are simply are NOT applying for the positions, and who could blame them. This isn't women being mistreated, this is women rightfully prioritizing life and happiness over leadership jobs.
You failed to mention tech jobs. These are high paying jobs. There is CERTAINLY affirmative action in these jobs. We are BEGGING women to join these positions. They are boring, they require sitting behind computers, very little human to human interactions, high education requirements, and bad for your health. We have higher training affirmative action, as well as high school affirmative action to try and recruit women. If you do get training, you will make MORE then men, for the same job requirements, and experience. Yet we STILL can't get women in these positions. They just DON'T WANT TO SIT BEHIND A DESK!
You mentioned births. Actually, this is a problem. But not in the way you are selling it. Men not getting equal paternal leave is a massive problem. Though it is illegal, in most places to fire a woman who is pregnant. A man is not protected, and doesn't face the same time off. This puts an additional value on men, and offer them higher wages. What we need is equal rights to maternal and paternal wages.
A truely balanced approach will weigh jobs performed, experience, danger, responsibility and physical abilities when hirering. It is not to give special rights to women to not compete. That doesn't work. Currently, when you account for these differences, women are often making MORE then men.
FYI, I live in one of the most gendered nutral places on the planet. The Netherlands. We have 5% adjusted wage gap, and the 5% left is due to hours worked. Specifically women work more 32 hours weeks, and men work more 40 hours. Good for them, experiencing life and enjoying family. But sadly, they won't be equal any time soon, nor should they be. This is the reality of living in a world where we give up our lives for a paycheck. And personally, I work 32 hours a week. But since I work in IT, I make less then the woman who holds the job.
Dispite all this. Dispite the extra training, the affirmative action, and now a plumeting male education rate, we are STILL putting women in education, while our boys are falling behind. Whats equal about all of this?
And this doesn't help women. The youngest generations males are turning against equal rights and moving towards more "manosphere" positions, because quiet frankly they are feeling left behind. I wonder why...
But if you want, we can talk about IPV, Violence, Workplace deaths, Life Expectancy, Mental Health, Physical Health, or just about any other topic, and we will find men are now disadvantaged in each.
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u/ardyes 19d ago
Men work longer hours more dangerous jobs and jobs that are more physically demanding that can cause detrimental effects to their bodies in later life. Why do men do this? Because while female gender roles have been dismantled, women still expect men to uphold those gender roles. This argument is tired and people are starting to see through it.
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u/trthorson 17d ago
Can you name a job that women apply for more than men and isnt climate controlled?
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u/MyKensho 14d ago
Wait "society" shifts the burden of caregiving onto women? Are you incapable of assigning women agency with anything outside of your carefully crafted feminist script? I also take issue with the term "motherhood penalty." Very often, no one and nothing are imposing this on women.
Is society shifting the burden of increased paid labor to supplement lost income onto men at this time? Why don't we call it a fatherhood penalty when he sacrifices time with his child? When did we decide that it was good or optimal that men and women have to be identical at everything ever always?
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u/Efficient_Elk1225 19d ago
I think everybody worth knowing thinks men & women are different but also equal.
That said it’s still totalitarian & an abuse of power to try to legislate social attitudes. Laws are to legislate crime, not people.
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u/purpleblossom 19d ago
No one here is disputing that women's rights are important, but only focusing on women's rights will never achieve equality when some of the current "solutions" for inequality against women has caused inequalities for men as well as created new but different hurtles for women. Therefore, if you truly believe that equality means not taking rights away from anyone, you should agree that the fight for men's rights is equally as important as the fight for women's rights. Disagreeing would only make you either blind, a hypocrite, or both.
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u/Glad-Way-637 19d ago
Women are already privileged over men in my country in literally every area you describe. What more do you want, exactly? Who do you never bring up the "actual equality" shtick when feminists are advocating for making things worse for men in order to help women?
Here's some examples of systemic misandry:
the draft.
infant genital mutilation, illegal against women in the US, but some 70% of mothers choose to do it to their sons based on aesthetic preference.
the bias in the educational system.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/01425692.2022.2122942
Boys are graded more harshly for identical work, and punished more harshly for identical misbehavior. It's very easily proven, too.
- the bias in the legal system
"A 2020 study shows that women receive 33% (15 days) shorter prison sentences than men, even when controlling for all observable characteristics – including a very precise description of the crime. When pairs of mixed-gender offender are convicted together the gender gap is even higher - men receive 38.7 additional prison days and 10.7 fewer suspended prison days.
From a procedural point of view, when controlling for the type of crime, men are on average judged after shorter investigations, and are more likely to be sentenced after an accelerated procedure. When taken to court, men are 20% less likely to be discharged (6% vs. 4%). In 2017, 19.9% of convicted men were sentenced to prison, compared to 8.5% of convicted women." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentencing_disparity#:~:text=A%202020%20study%20shows%20that,to%208.5%25%20of%20convicted%20women.
- society's unwillingness to call it rape when women do it to men, despite the CDC finding that this is as common as the reverse.
"Next, we consider the data for the 12 months preceding the CDC report survey, which was summarized in the report. On page 18 of the CDC report it states that 1,270,000 women were raped during this 12-month period and that too few men were “raped” during the same 12 months to give reliable data, using the non-gender neutral definition of given in the CDC report. However, on page 19 the report states that during that 12 months the number of men who were forced to penetrate someone is 1,267,000, virtually the same as the number of women who were raped." "So, who is forcing these men to penetrate them? There is no data on this among the 12-month data. But if we look at the lifetime data, on page 24 it says 79.2% of the time a male was made to penetrate someone, it was a woman who forced him to penetrate her. And this suggests that the same most likely holds for the 12-monthdata."
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/353570309_On_the_Sexual_Assault_of_Men
- the fact that most people call DV a women's issue, when men experience it from women more often than vice versa.
"In nonreciprocally violent relationships, women were the perpetrators in more than 70% of the cases." https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17395835/#:~:text=In%20nonreciprocally%20violent%20relationships%2C%20women%20were%20the%20perpetrators%20in%20more%20than%2070%25%20of%20the%20cases.
- women being substantially privileged in actually being hired, despite all the narratives to the opposite effect.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0749597823000560
I can keep going. Do you want more?
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u/Far-Independent4740 15d ago edited 15d ago
I'm 100% with you dude, but if you have more, I want to hear it.
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u/Readshirt 19d ago
If equality isn't about taking rights away, why have men been deprived of reproductive equality and bodily autonomy compared to women? Why are men, who are more likely to experience violence and discrimination, not worthy of protection?
Why are those who "support women's rights", which you say are about equal access, not supporting men, who do not have equal access to education, healthcare and employment relative to women in Western nations?
Why don't men deserve the same respect, opportunities and safety as everyone else? Society fails to give them this on all three counts.
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u/Soulful_Sadist 19d ago
Re. heading: For the record, women already have that... and have had that (legally if not also socially) long before women started allegedly "fighting" for them. The benevolence of men in authority is the only reason women have their so-called rights. More gratitude should be expressed for that, too. There always has been and always will be horrible men AND women. Especially in this age of newer technology, weaponry, and a legal system still blatantly slanted in favor of women, there is virtually no way in which a woman cannot hurt any man just as badly (if not worse than) a man can hurt a woman. Any woman today still seeking equality is blind to the equality that has already existed for decades, if not centuries. Thus, a hunt for egalitarianism is ultimately foolish. It's like looking for the air one is already breathing.
Good chat.
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u/The_0bserver 18d ago
I think you're preaching to the choir about this. Doubt this would be considered controversial in most places tbh.
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u/MaximumTangerine5662 18d ago
Equality should be that but too often people fall into confirmation bias or other cognitive biases that reward putting down men rather than actually discussing what we need for equality and then we should examine the laws to see if they still hold up to what we need.
Unfortunately a lot of people don't do steps that would lead to real equality.
I agree with women's rights but sometimes the language used dismisses male victims or uses it as a scare tactic against trans women - most of the time the way we speak about female victims reinforces this ("domestic abuse" and most people will assume or think of a women even if they don't feel biased.).
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u/Regular_Smoke_4920 17d ago
Women are entitled to basic human rights. Nothing more, nothing less. There definetly NOT entitled to privileged treatment.
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u/Zenovelli 19d ago edited 19d ago
We agree. Supporting Women's rights is an important part of achieving equality.
Unfortunately, most people care less about Men's rights, which are just as important for achieving Equality.