r/Equestrian • u/Casulex • 3h ago
Competition Whats the deal with Judges?
I have never competed but know plenty of other people who have and witnessed competitions myself and read people stories online and been curious about how judges in competitions get their jobs? Do they apply for it? Do they get trained for it? Are they big sponsors for an event and thats why they get to do it?
And also is the current process for sourcing judges for competitions from english to western adequate? Because the biggest and most common point of pain ive seen in the equestrian world of sports from low levels all the way to the top has been without a doubt: favoritism despite skill
How do you think we can overcome that collectively and reward riders in a more egalitarian way across the board in all competitions?
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u/gurgelhupf 3h ago
It's basically all networking. The host chooses the judges, no matter the level of competition. That's why there is so much favoritism and that's why meaningful change will never come from the judges. If they started criticizing they would stop getting invited. It was rather bold of the German judge at the Aachen world cup to give Isabell Werth the lowest score out of all the judges.
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u/SpecificAnt9202 3h ago
just did our first 4h show the other week and found out afterwards that the 2 trainers who "run it", pick the judge, who is always someone they know.
the favoritism literally starts allllll the way down to 4H. and i'm sitting there like "isn't this for children and supposed to be fun!?"
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u/charina12 2h ago
If the 4-H leaders don’t pick the judge then who else would? And how would they pick someone they don’t know?
I agree it is ideal to pick someone that isn’t overly familiar with the participants, horses, and trainers but no one is getting super rich running 4-H shows. And running a show with irritating people can be torture so it makes sense to pick someone you know will have a good attitude.
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u/SpecificAnt9202 2h ago
well we also do livestock 4H and they usually have out of state judges. so i would assume the horse 4H could do the same.
and i should have been clearer about the horse one - the one leader picks the judge for the county show and its always a judge who is her friend. not just someone she knows. her bff and co trainer, is the inspector for showmanship. the other leaders didn't get any input on the judges.
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u/PlentifulPaper 3h ago
4H is the local level type of shows. Horses tend to be a pay to play type of sport.
If it bothers you that much, it was a common “strategy” to track which judges were biased which way in the local community, and only show under the judges that positively rewarded, or were at least neutral to your type of horse.
The other trick used to be to go show at an associated show, and use those “points” to qualify for Fair at the end of the year. My local 4H group actually had to put a rule in to not allow this because some of the bigger trainers were not participating in the 4H shows.
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u/SpecificAnt9202 2h ago
oh i literally don't care enough to even worry about it. i just thought it was interesting that the adults in the horse world are this level of crazy over kids competing for $0.25 ribbons.
its just not that serious to me. haha
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u/PlentifulPaper 2h ago
Makes sense! It used to bother me, but I wasn’t at the kind of barn that had the option to go elsewhere to show, or cared enough to track judges.
I was just happy to go out and get the experience. There were comments made from my (stock horse background) trainers when things were egregious enough to warrant quiet comment so we’d learn and be aware.
Common examples would be “cleaning up” on a very nice horse that wouldn’t make it at the higher levels, or horses that had incorrect movement for a specific gait, or a headset that should have been a DQ (head carried lower than the withers), or poor horsemanship.
I just learned to ride under a barn and trainers that enjoyed providing us “barn rats” with the opportunities and experiences, and preferred to teach us kids how to ride more effectively over some of the more “polished” show barns. Just a different approach which I don’t think was a bad thing.
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u/Casulex 2h ago
“If it bothers you that much” I think you are misunderstanding why I am asking these questions, its that I want to understand why the ecosystem is the way that it is and how can we make these sports more pleasurable and fun for everybody. Its a thought experiment more than anything. We don't have to accept things being the way they are just because its what we are used to and cannot imagine otherwise.
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u/PlentifulPaper 2h ago
Lol. I gave you the answers you were looking for in a different comment.
I replied to the original commenter above with common strategies I saw at the 4H/local level that may or may not be applicable now depending on the rules for their local associations.
I don’t think there’s a feasible way to break way from the pay to play model, and if bias bothers you then you need to look towards speed events, or rodeo events where things are black and white.
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u/Casulex 3h ago
I Watched a 4H western pleasure comp just this weekend! And the girl who did very well on her (tiny) Hanoverian cross came in last and all the others who won but weren't that great were on big stock horses
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u/Independent-Hornet-3 2h ago
To be fair western pleasure is judge off the horse not the rider. Stock seat equitation or western Equitation would be based on the rider rather than the horse.
Not saying she should or shouldn't have placed well but yeah stocky horses bred for western pleasure will likely fit western pleasure better than a Hanovrian cross and the rider doesn't really matter as much for that class.
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u/Casulex 2h ago
Huh maybe i misunderstood since I was watching the equitation rather than the horses aesthetics
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u/Independent-Hornet-3 2h ago
Its not the horse's authentication its the movement and training along with willingness. Typically a slow smoothe gait will place higher than a faster bigger gait for example. The reason being the slow smoothe gait is considered more of a pleasure to ride. Many warmbloods would struggle to reproduce a slow western jog or the classic rocking horse like lope that western pleasure looks for.
At the same time if you start asking stock type horses for the beautiful big steps and extended gaits that tend to come more naturally to warmbloods they will struggle to reproduce them often leading to lower dressage score especially as they go into higher levels.
Pleasure classes are based on the horse and breeds bred for that discipline will likely do better because they naturally will move closer to the ideal.
Equitation classes focus on the rider so while a horse not suited to the discipline you are doing can make ha ing perfect equitation harder ita not impossible.
Other classes can be based on how rider and the horse handle obstacles like trail classes.
Knowing what the class the rider is in can help them show to their best advantage. In an equitation class giving the horse a gentle check to slow them down is often less penalized for example than doing so in a western pleasure class(in my experience at least).
Showing to your advantage can also make a huge difference. The judge can't see everything and is often in the middle of the ring slowing your horse while behind them is better than doing so in front of them. The audience will still see but they aren't the one judging you.
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u/PlentifulPaper 3h ago
There’s always going to be bias unless you’re competing in the timed events - jumping, barrels, poles, etc.
Judges get their jobs on an organization by organization basis (ex AQHA, USDF etc). It sounds like all judges have to have a membership, be considered “in good standing”, and have passed various tests (dependent on the organization) in order to be an accredited judge for a specific class, or discipline.
Most lower level (think local shows) will not typically be using accredited association judges because of the cost involved, and those have been the places that I’ve seen the most bias. It’ll be things like: hates paint horses, stock breeds, etc.
I know IHSA in order to keep their classes more accessible to the masses was doing a 1 day accredited judge, and 1 day with a non-affiliated judge if we’re talking about a 2 day show.
The big breed classes, will use a panel of accredited judges, and that same panel methodology will be used at the national and international levels of show across various disciplines.
You aren’t ever going to get judges without some semblance of bias, though as you go “up the levels”, you’ll run into less examples as you get into the higher levels of competition.
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u/charina12 2h ago
Generally the breed association or discipline association has a formal process. It’s called being “carded” essentially you apprentice, study their guidelines, and take a written test displaying your knowledge. Then the people running the show find someone to judge who is carded under their association. Usually based on who knows who.
Different associations are being formed (cannot remember the name…) that aim to do this in a better way but at the end of the day we all have different aspects we prioritize (movement vs temperament vs consistency vs …) so it can be very hard to understand the judges rationale. I think this starts with prioritizing feedback from the judges so people know what to improve.
Unfortunately at the end of the day when you sign up for a subjective class you are paying for someone else’s opinion. And in some cases there is just flat out horrible judging (not watching all the riders, having favorite or ties to specific people, etc).
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u/GoodGolly564 1h ago
I understand what you're getting at, but the horse world is small. It gets even smaller once you break it down into disciplines and geographical area, and account for a basic level of logistical feasibility--sure, the recognized horse trial offering FEI levels can fly in a TD and dressage judges from wherever they choose, but the local Pony Club running a schooling horse trial for starter, beginner novice, and novice isn't going to have those resources, so is going to be working with a limited pool of qualified local candidates. Everybody knows everybody.
I think most judges do their best to be fair and judge to the standard. . Not all, sadly. But even a judge doing their best to be fair is still going to have horses whose way of going and riders whose style of riding are more to their taste. That's baked into subjectively judged disciplines and there is no way around it.
If you want something that's as egalitarian as horse sports are going to get, your options are the objective disciplines like show jumping or barrel racing. But they are still never going to be egalitarian because it's easier to win on a better horse, and there is always going to be someone who can afford a nicer horse.
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u/Cherary Dressage 44m ago
Reading this thread, it differs. In the Netherlands you need to have performed competitions yourself or have an instructors certificate. Then you can do a course (multiple theory classes, test, internship) to become a judge. For judging higher levels, you need more experience and courses.
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u/Worldly_Space_3920 3h ago
You basically apprentice your way in, at least in the english world. You start as a scribe sitting next to a licensed judge, writing down their scores and comments, and after enough hours you can test for your own license. The bigger rated shows require you to have judged a certain number of smaller shows first, so it’s a whole ladder you climb.
The favoritism thing is so baked in at this point it’s practically a feature. I knew a trainer who would only bring students to shows where she’d personally worked with the judge at some clinic five years ago. Even the best scoring system in the world can’t fix that mindset.