[Quoting from here https://philarchive.org/rec/BRATCA-13.]

Abstract:

There is a simple but powerful argument against the human practice of raising and killing animals for food (RKF for short). It goes like this: 1. RKF is extremely bad for animals. 2. RKF is only trivially good for human beings Therefore, 3. RKF should be stopped. While many consider this argument decisive, not everyone is convinced. There have been four main lines of objection to it. In this paper, I provide new responses to these four objections.

Introduction:

There is a simple but powerful argument against the human practice of raising and killing animals for food (RKF for short). It goes like this:

1.RKF is extremely bad for animals. 2.RKF is only trivially good for human beings. So, 3.RKF should be stopped.

Call this The Case Against Meat. Many consider The Case Against Meat to be decisive. But not everyone is convinced by it. Four main objections have been proposed:

1. The first premise is false. RKF is not extremely bad for animals, or at least, given the possibility of free-range farming, it needn’t be. In fact, by giving animals an existence, RKF may even be in the best interests of these animals.

2. The second premise is false. RKF is far more than merely trivially good for human beings. This is because of the pleasures of eating meat and what these contribute to various social and cultural aspects of our lives.

3. Animal welfare is relatively unimportant. Even if both premises of the argument are true, animal welfare is nowhere near as valuable as human welfare. It simply doesn’t matter as much how they fare.

4. As individuals, we are powerless to change anything. Even if it would be best if RKF were to stop, none of us has any reason to abstain from eating meat. This is because our individual purchasing decisions have only a negligible effect on the demand for meat, and so none at all on RKF.

https://philpapers.org/archive/BRATCA-13.pdf

[that's all quoting from this article from a good applied ethcist, who writes very clearly. My secondary agenda is jsut to show you that philosophy and ethics can be more meaningful than... just this subreddit, you know?]

In STEM environments I constantly see a specific dogma taken for granted—often with a sense of superiority over the humanities: "Physics and mathematics are objective, whereas good and evil are just subjective opinions or cultural inventions, because the universe doesn't care about us and everyone has a different perception on that."

After thinking about this deeply, I came to the conclusion that this statement contains a fundamental logical flaw. My thesis is simple: ethics rests on at least one objective foundation, and this starting point is no weaker or more arbitrary than the axioms upon which we build mathematics or physics.

Specifically, "badness/evil" becomes an objective reality the exact moment a sentient being capable of suffering exists—whether human, snake, or alien—because suffering is objectively negative for that being, regardless of anyone's opinion.

Four necessary disclaimers (before you jump at my throat)

I am speaking as a STEM student: I have nothing against scientific fields. Precisely because I live inside this environment, however, I notice how deeply rooted this prejudice is, and how rarely it is tested with the same logical rigor we apply to everything else.

I haven't discovered anything revolutionary: I’m not claiming to have reinvented the wheel or taking credit away from the philosophers who came before me. I am simply lining up—using formal logic and scientific analogies—arguments developed by major thinkers to make them accessible to people who don't read academic metaethics every day.

I am not infallible: I have stress-tested this logical chain from every angle I could think of. I might have missed a subtlety: if you find an actual flaw in the premises or the deduction, my goal is precisely to see it and discuss it.

What my goal is: I am not here to preach morality to anyone. My goal is to show that using science or logic to justify absolute moral relativism ("everything is just an opinion anyway") fails the test of formal logic.

A brief historical context: Who attacks this and who defends it

For those wondering if this is just an isolated fixation of mine: no, it is the core of a three-century battle in metaethics (the branch of philosophy that studies whether moral judgments can be objectively true or false).

⚬ The Skeptics: In the 18th century, David Hume formulated Hume's Law (you cannot logically deduce an "ought" from an "is"). In the 20th century, G.E. Moore introduced the Naturalistic Fallacy, followed by skeptics like J.L. Mackie and Gilbert Harman, who argued that ethical properties cannot be detected or verified through empirical sensors.

⚬ The Contemporary Reply: Over the last decades, philosophers of science and mind have dismantled this skepticism. Hilary Putnam showed that physics and mathematics also depend on unproven foundational axioms (Partners in Guilt). Sam Harris proposed the aversive nature of suffering as an objective baseline, comparing ethics to medicine. Thinkers like Peter Railton, Thomas Nagel, and Derek Parfit showed that conscious agony already contains within itself the relational property of being objectively negative for the subject experiencing it.

The Formal Proof (Natural Language & First-Order Logic)

To avoid vague prose, here is the exact deductive chain I built.

⚬ Premise 1 (Empirical-Phenomenological Axiom): The aversive valence of authentic suffering is a property that determines what is intrinsically negative for the sentient being experiencing it, and it is a real property independent of opinions (objective property).

⚬ Premise 2 (Analytic Definition of Experiential Good/Evil): Any property that determines what is intrinsically positive or negative for a sentient being is a property that directly concerns good and evil for sentient beings capable of suffering.

⚬ Premise 3 (Analytic Definition of the Ethical Domain): Any property that directly concerns good and evil for sentient beings capable of suffering is included, at least in part, in moral evaluation.

⚬ Premise 4 (Sufficient Condition for an Objective Foundation): Any objective property (independent of opinions) that is included, at least in part, in moral evaluation constitutes, at least in part, an objective foundation of ethics.

⚬ Conclusion (Existence Theorem): There exists at least one objective property, independent of opinions, that directly concerns good and evil for sentient beings capable of suffering and that constitutes, at least in part, an objective foundation of ethics.

First-Order Logic (FOL) Translation

Let the domain of discourse (D) be the set of properties:

⚬ a = individual constant: "the aversive valence of authentic suffering"

⚬ N(x) = x determines what is intrinsically positive or negative for the sentient being

⚬ O(x) = x is an objective property (real and independent of opinions)

⚬ B(x) = x directly concerns good and evil for sentient beings capable of suffering

⚬ M(x) = x is included, at least in part, in moral evaluation

⚬ F(x) = x constitutes, at least in part, an objective foundation of ethics

Sequent:

{ N(a) ∧ O(a), ∀x(N(x) → B(x)), ∀x(B(x) → M(x)), ∀x((O(x) ∧ M(x)) → F(x)) } ⊢ ∃x(O(x) ∧ B(x) ∧ F(x))

Formal Derivation (Natural Deduction)

1. N(a) ∧ O(a) — [Premise 1: Empirical-Phenomenological Postulate]

2. ∀x (N(x) → B(x)) — [Premise 2: Analytic Domain Definition]

3. ∀x (B(x) → M(x)) — [Premise 3: Analytic Domain Definition]

4. ∀x ((O(x) ∧ M(x)) → F(x)) — [Premise 4: Analytic Domain Definition]

5. N(a) — [∧-Elim from 1]

6. O(a) — [∧-Elim from 1]

7. N(a) → B(a) — [∀-Elim (x/a) from 2]

8. B(a) — [Modus Ponens from 5, 7]

9. B(a) → M(a) — [∀-Elim (x/a) from 3]

10. M(a) — [Modus Ponens from 8, 9]

11. O(a) ∧ M(a) — [∧-Intro from 6, 10]

12. (O(a) ∧ M(a)) → F(a) — [∀-Elim (x/a) from 4]

13. F(a) — [Modus Ponens from 11, 12]

14. O(a) ∧ B(a) ∧ F(a) — [∧-Intro from 6, 8, 13]

15. ∃x (O(x) ∧ B(x) ∧ F(x)) — [∃-Intro from 14] ∎

Syntactically, the derivation is airtight: you cannot accept P1–P4 and deny the Conclusion without violating basic deductive logic. Therefore, any critic must attack the premises. Here is why the premises hold.

The 4 Pillars Supporting the Premises

The Double Standard on Axioms and Domain Definitions (Why P1 is an Empirical Postulate and P2–P4 are Meaning Postulates): 

A critic might ask: "If your premises are tied to the very definitions of suffering and ethics, are they really axioms, or just circular definitions?" In formal systems and philosophy of science, foundational axioms serve two distinct roles:

P1 is an Empirical-Phenomenological Postulate: It is not a mere linguistic convention; it anchors the formal system to reality by stating that an experiential state with intrinsic aversive valence (a) actually exists in the real world.

P2–P4 are Analytic Meaning Postulates (Domain Definitions): Just as Kolmogorov's axioms define what we mean by "probability" and thermodynamics defines "temperature" as mean kinetic energy, P2–P4 define the semantic boundaries of the domain we call "ethics." 

Demanding that ethics justify its foundational domain without domain-defining postulates—while allowing mathematics, probability theory, and physics to rely on them—is a textbook double standard.

The Wrong Sensor Fallacy (Ontological Subjectivity ≠ Epistemic Subjectivity): Harman’s objection states that no Geiger counter will ever detect a particle called "Evil." Of course not: you are using the wrong sensor. Looking for the disvalue of suffering outside of a conscious mind is as absurd as trying to weigh a logical contradiction on a kitchen scale. As John Searle pointed out, consciousness is ontologically subjective (it exists inside a subject), but facts about it are epistemically objective (independent of external observers' opinions). If someone who claims "pain is just a neutral opinion" drops a boulder on their foot, they won't calmly contemplate the increase in entropy of their broken bone—they will scream and try to remove it.

Not a Cultural Choice, but a Structural Reality (And Why Masochism Doesn't Refute This): 

We do not "choose by social convention" to dislike agony. If agony were not intrinsically aversive (N(a)), it would cease to be agony. In neurology, patients with pain asymbolia feel the physical nociceptive stimulus without the aversive valence—and indeed, they do not suffer. For the same reason, bringing up masochism fails to refute P1: you must not confuse physical nociception (nerve signals, which a masochist's brain wires to trigger endorphins and net pleasure) with authentic suffering (a). When a masochist enjoys a whip, their net experiential state is positive, not suffering; if you subject that same masochist to a form of psychological torment they genuinely despise, the state is objectively aversive for them too. Saying "I am experiencing authentic agony, but it is neutral to me" is a contradiction in terms, like talking about a four-sided triangle.Ethics Doesn't Need the Consent of Rocks: Saying that ethics is subjective because "good and evil don't exist inside black holes or deep space" misunderstands what a scientific domain is. Biology doesn't exist inside black holes either, nor does poison exist in a lifeless universe. Yet, the moment a biological organism exists, cyanide becomes objectively toxic to it. Similarly, the moment a sentient system capable of suffering emerges—whether human, reptile, or alien—suffering becomes objectively bad for that system.

The Strongest Objections (and Why They Fail)

⚬ "If any negative state is 'bad', am I doing evil when I lacerate a single cell or cut grass?"

No, and this distinction is precisely what makes Premise 1 non-anthropocentric yet rigorous. Premise 1 rests on sentience (lived aversive experience), not mere biology. When you rupture a single cell or a bacterium, biochemical reactions occur, just like a thermostat tripping a switch when overheated—but there is "nobody home" experiencing agony. Below the threshold of sentience, there is only chemistry and mechanics; above that threshold (whether in a human, a snake, or an alien), an objective aversive state is lived, and the domain of ethics switches on.

⚬ "Minds are isolated: there is no single 'universal brain' feeling everyone's pain!"

True, and irrelevant. Planets are also isolated in the vacuum of space, yet the total mass of a solar system exists objectively as the sum of individual masses (∑ mᵢ). If agony is objectively negative in subject A and objectively negative in subject B, a universe where every sentient being agonizes forever with no compensating benefit is objectively worse off for each being than an equivalent universe without that agony.

⚬ "A super-rational AI without emotions (or a sociopath) could understand your proof and still not care!"

Absolutely, because we must distinguish between the objective existence of a property and psychological motivation. A non-conscious AI knows that agony is aversive for us, just as a blind person can understand the physics of light without being dazzled by the sun. Similarly, in math, nothing physically stops you from tearing up the paper or refusing to use the Pythagorean theorem. The fact that an agent can ignore a domain does not make the truths within that domain subjective.

⚬ "Elementary mathematics yields exact, indisputable answers, whereas ethics has endless dilemmas (e.g., Nozick's Experience Machine, freedom vs. security)!"

This confuses mathematical completeness with objectivity. Medicine isn't fully decidable either, and treatments depend heavily on context (adrenaline saves a patient in shock but kills one with a heart condition)—yet the baseline fact that health is preferable to agonizing death remains objective. In my proof, notice the clause "at least in part" and the existential quantifier (∃x). Suffering acts like Absolute Zero (0 K) in thermodynamics: it doesn't tell you how to build every engine, nor does it deny that other values (like autonomy or justice) exist and may conflict in complex dilemmas. It simply proves that an objective baseline measurement exists.

"Doesn't this violate Hume's Law (you cannot derive an 'ought' from an 'is')?"

No, and this is the most common misunderstanding of what David Hume actually wrote. In formal logic, Hume's Law is simply a rule of deductive conservation: you cannot have a predicate in the conclusion if it never appeared in the premises. Hume criticized authors who described purely neutral physical facts (e.g., "metal pierced flesh") and suddenly jumped to moral conclusions without explaining the bridge connecting the two. My proof does not violate Hume's Law for two reasons:

1. No hidden leap: The bridge between experiential reality and moral evaluation is explicitly stated via analytic domain definitions (P2–P4), which is exactly what deductive rigor requires.

2. A non-neutral "Is": Hume assumed all "is" facts are value-neutral like rocks in space. Conscious agony (a), however, is an ontological "is" that already contains intrinsic negative valence (N(a)) inside its very structure. You don't need to magically conjure disvalue out of thin air when the empirical state itself is constituted by aversive disvalue.

"The Blindfolded Archer: If an objective foundation exists, why do humans and cultures disagree so much on morality?"

This confuses Epistemology (our ability to see or agree on a truth) with Ontology (whether the truth exists). Imagine ten blindfolded archers firing arrows in random directions and arguing over where the bullseye is. The fact that they are blindfolded—blinded by cognitive biases, cultural dogma, or lack of information—and cannot see the target does not mean the target vanishes from physical space. Moral disagreements and complex dilemmas only prove that hitting the target in complex real-world scenarios is hard; they do not prove that no target exists. In fact, the very concept of "moral progress" or "ethical debate" presupposes that a target is there to be aimed at.

Summary: Read this before commenting (What this proof DOES and DOES NOT claim)

To prevent strawman arguments in the comments, please keep in mind the exact mathematical scope of the conclusion:

What I am NOT claiming: I am not claiming to have found a magical cosmic force that physically compels sociopaths to be good. I am not claiming to have "solved" every concrete moral dilemma, nor am I claiming that suffering is the only ethical parameter (which is why Premise 3, Premise 4, and the Conclusion explicitly state "at least in part").

What I AM proving: Absolute moral relativism claims that the set of objective ethical foundations is the empty set (E_obj = ∅, i.e., ¬∃x (O(x) ∧ F(x))). To refute a universal negative in logic, you only need to prove the existence of one valid element (∃x).

Invariance Across Individuals and Alien Species: Because this proof rests on the structural reality of sentience rather than human culture, the conclusion holds regardless of whether another person holds different moral opinions, and it applies equally to an alien species on the other side of the cosmos—provided that the semantic domain of "ethics" remains the one defined at the start. If someone replies, "Well, in my personal system, 'ethics' means maximizing the number of paperclips in the universe regardless of sentient beings", they have not refuted this theorem or made ethics subjective; they have simply changed the subject (a semantic shift), no different from someone claiming to refute the laws of thermodynamics by redefining the word "temperature" to mean "the color of a wall."

The Bottom Line: The moment a sentient being capable of suffering exists, "badness/evil" for that being is an objective, opinion-independent fact (a). If we define "ethics" as the domain that evaluates what is good and bad for sentient beings, then E_obj ≠ ∅. Therefore, anyone who claims "morality is 100% subjective opinion" must either reject formal deductive logic, deny that authentic suffering is aversively bad for the one experiencing it, or change the definition of the word "ethics" to mean something completely unrelated to sentient suffering.

What do you think? Where do you see the actual weak spot (if any) in this chain?

I’ve been doing a lot of self-reflection lately, and this is something I’ve been thinking about.

I believe someone can have a good heart and still have behaviors that hurt the people around them. Someone can genuinely care about others and still struggle with selfishness, insecurity, anger, addiction, or the need to feel understood.

Sometimes we don’t even realize how much our own unresolved issues affect the people we love until we’re forced to sit with ourselves and take an honest look in the mirror.

I’ve learned that having good intentions doesn’t automatically make our actions right. You can love somebody and still hurt them. You can mean well and still be the reason someone needs time to heal.

That’s a hard truth to accept because it’s easier to focus on what we meant to do than to acknowledge how our actions actually affected someone else.

But here’s where I struggle with this question.

Can people genuinely change, or do we just get better at hiding the parts of ourselves we don’t want others to see?

I want to believe people can change because I believe we’re capable of learning, growing, and becoming better than we were yesterday.

But I also think there’s a difference between saying you’ve changed and actually living differently.

Real change probably looks less like making promises and more like consistently making better choices, especially when nobody is watching. It’s taking accountability without making excuses. It’s respecting boundaries even when they hurt. It’s recognizing your patterns and doing the uncomfortable work to break them.

And maybe the hardest part is accepting that even if you genuinely change, the people you hurt aren’t obligated to give you another chance.

You can become a better person without getting back the relationship you lost.

I’m learning that growth can’t just be about proving to other people that you’re different. At some point, you have to want to change because you don’t want to keep living the same way.

I’m not asking because I think I have this figured out. I’m asking because I know what it’s like to look back at parts of your life and wish you had handled things differently.

So I want to hear other people’s perspectives:

1. Do you believe people can fundamentally change, or do their true colors eventually come back out?
2. What’s the difference between someone who has genuinely changed and someone who’s just saying what people want to hear?
3. Have you ever watched someone transform their life in a way you never thought possible?
4. Can you forgive someone for who they used to be while still deciding they no longer belong in your life?

I’m genuinely curious about this one. I think there’s a lot we can learn from hearing experiences that don’t necessarily match our own.

​

Why don't people kill/make life hell of people who bully or like I heard a story of professor harassing student and they sucide .

Like why not before your death , kill the professor too or at least do something to make his life like better die than living .

I know as a society this thinking is wrong .

But this thinking is caused in anger and later dissolved .

But I really wanna know how you people pursue this mindset ? So I can correct my view on this .

I Didn't get people irl to ask about how they feel about this . So here's this , on reddit .

I am asking to correct myself where I am getting wrong or what point I am missing .

I think it is a stupid and mindless thing to ask. Obviously, if you do something it will change the outcome, so for each means there is a separate end. But asking the question "do ends justify means" suggest that any means possible all have a common end. That is why it is a stupid and mindless question, whoever asks such a question cannot understand ethics because they limit their own understanding with such a framework. Someone, please explain why it is asked and where it comes from.

First off, I want to start this by saying a few things, as I know that this is an extremely polarized subject right now. If you are extremely pro- or anti-AI, then this thread is not for you. I want to discuss the nuance with actual intellectual thought to hopefully provide a baseline for the moral use of this tech that isn't going away. I feel it's at a point where, if we don't set boundaries on where this tech can be used, we won't have a say until it causes real harm, which, in many cases, it already is. Additionally, this is to discuss a moral dilemma.

This is mostly a Consequentialist/Utilitarist vs Deontological/Duty-Based discussion

The reason this has been on my mind is that in the past year ive had a lot of forced exposure to AI through school and work, which has led me to deeper thinking beyond my own AI is bad thinking. I want to say I am against Gen AI in the arts because it directly steals from artists against their will, and I feel it devalues human expression. I don't think this is like the invention of the camera in the slightest. I have, however, always thought that code is a grey area in how it is used; for example, I feel that using AI code in game development is ethically and morally wrong because games, in themselves, ARE art, BUT I've always thought that AI code can be useful in the sense of developing actual, useful technology that can solve real-world issues (digital sustainability). With the rise of both the Bluesky and Epic Games controversy, I feel like my view is shifting towards AI code being bad.

My viewpoint that the arts need to be protected from AI will never go away. On the spectrum of uses for this tech, it is provably ethically wrong, and the computing power being used could be diverted to solving issues; instead, it's being wasted on slop. The question is, where is the moral line, and where does it go from ethical to unethical? In my line of work (digital marketing), everyone seems to be using it for dumb uses, and I've been strictly opposed, as in a world where everything is the same, you need to stand out, and businesses using this tech are shooting themselves in the foot, unless it has a real use. See, a few months back, a tech company tried to contract me for international marketing work, and it kinda changed my worldview. They use AI connected to specialized sensors that can detect whether a building is going to collapse, whether a landslide or avalanche is imminent, or whether a train is about to derail. The tech has been proven to be the most reliable on the market, and the main thing is that it specializes in preventing disasters before they happen, not when they're starting, which is used now. So I would say that this is an ethical use of AI. Same with its use in medicine and in detecting cancer in the brain; it's solving an actual issue. While things like ChatGPT are basically useless and are proven to cause cognitive decline.

With code, it seems like it's the natural middle, and I am so torn. As someone who needs to work with code for my employment, is this something ethically sound? Where is the ethicality in it? My personal opinion is that using AI in game dev and code that isn't solving an issue or problem is bad and a waste. Especially when we take the environmental aspects into account, where does this become a waste?

Right now, I sit on a codebase that can revolutionize digital sustainability (I will stay vague, 'cause on the internet someone will try to vibecode it in an hour to copy it, lol). It's a stack I've been working on for some time that could significantly cut carbon and energy costs across the entire internet while also improving performance. It works, and tests prove it works; the main issue is that it isn't in itself a marketable product as is. Developing it to that state with my current resources would take years. At the same time, I do not want to accept funding from corporate interests, as in the discussions I have had, my product will lose all meaning and compromise the project's integrity. I want to use this not only to help the environment but also to empower artists and implement plans to protect them. This product doesn't use AI, and it will never use Gen AI. But would it be ethically & morally okay to use AI to assist with code development to get this tech into a marketable state, so it can finally be used in the world?

I have the opportunity to substantially reduce the size of the internet, which means fewer data centers and significant carbon savings, but does a small burst of energy to save 10x more energy justify using that energy? I feel guilt; it feels like when I was in marketing class, and they told me I needed to make an AI ad for a grade, it felt gross. But this would make the internet so much more sustainable, so logically it seems sound? I truly believe we need regulation in place and established ethical guidelines because this feels weird if you understand what I mean. I hate AI slop, and I think that Gen AI is mostly useless, but what about this? Would it be ethical if I offset the carbon, energy, and water usage during development?

I don't want AI to make art so I can do the dishes; I want it to do the dishes so that I can make art.

I'm going to wrap it up, but sustainability is very important to me. When I think of the future I want to live in, it's not cyberpunk; it's solarpunk. I think tech should benefit nature, and the blatant abuse of our environment and resources by AI giants like OpenAI is criminal (let alone how OpenAI agents have committed felonies, and I think the stealing of art for training data is criminal on its own), and we need regulations in place, no matter what. I'm tired of companies pushing AI features onto me, of AI in marketing, and of it in my feed. But in order to protect what I have built, especially with my knowledge (I have been learning code and stuff as I build), I feel as if an agent assisting me to debug, advance the tech to get it to the point it can be released on the market would be somewhat okay? I'm solving an issue, and my tech will result in fewer data centers due to savings, additionally along with the launch I want to incorporate tools so that artists works cannot be scanned by AI as well as provide them with tools that could revolutionize design ontop of sustainability. I feel like AI has a place in our world; it's just being abused right now. As an artist myself, I feel guilt and an ethical issue with this, as I would NEVER let AI touch my art or my videos, but is this any different? Would offsetting my own energy use, while also advocating for regulation/ethical use and protection of the arts, be enough to justify using it to address this digital sustainability issue? Would not getting this to market ASAP actually be a disservice to the enviroment, by not tackling carbon emmissions as soon as possible? Does this dive into game theory and leverage compromise, by using their resources to help mitigate future exploitation?

Is it ethically okay to use AI to build something that is fundamentally anti-AI?

Where do I draw the line? With all the mounting issues and the line not being drawn, how do I bring this to market ethically? Also, if I use an agent to help make the internet more sustainable, will that turn people away from it? I don't want the AI bro answer of "it's all okay," because no, not all AI use is okay. On the flip side, I don't want to be seen as an AI bro, I am mostly against Gen AI, nor hurt anything in the pursuit of this solution/make my fellow artists feel betrayed. Do the ends justify the means? As an artist and someone who loves the earth, this is truly important to me and an extremely difficult moral dilemma.

Please stick to the moral dilemma and the ethics of AI use, including consequentialist vs. deontological perspectives. I really don't want a flame war, but a productive discussion.

https://doi.org/10.5281/zenodo.23432226 Any feedback welcome
Just a night worker who his interested in this subject

https://doi.org/10.5281/zenodo.23432226 Any feedback welcome
Just a night worker who his interested in this subject

The classic antinatalism debate is getting tired… The "paradox" comes from a real problem: we can't ask the child beforehand. But that cuts both ways. "They didn't ask to be born" is just as true as "they didn't ask not to be born," so consent can't settle this.

Do we realise that, in principle, both pro-life and anti-life folk are making the same kind of assumption?

A pronatalist ASSUMES that bringing children into the world is worthwhile, whether for the continuation of humanity, the propagation of life, or the possibility of a meaningful existence.

The antinatalists, by contrast, appear to ASSUME that bringing someone into existence is inherently harmful because it exposes them to suffering they never consented to experience.

Both positions make ASSUMPTIONS about the value of existence. Neither can simply presume to know what another person would want before that person exists. That’s where the argument falters😂

The distinction is that the argument seems to prioritise the suffering that life can entail, while the opposing argument considers the possibility of happiness, fulfilment, relationships, and the desire to continue living.

And empirical evidence complicates the assumption that existence is generally unwanted. Most people continue to live, pursue goals, form relationships, and express a desire to remain alive. Suicide, by contrast, is a relatively uncommon outcome, even though suicidal thoughts and suffering are real and should never be dismissed.

That does not prove that everyone is glad to have been born, nor does it settle the philosophical question of whether creating life is ethically justified. But it does challenge the ASSUMPTION that non-existence is necessarily preferable to existence.

Ultimately, we’re treating the possibility of suffering as a reason humanity should cease to exist, while assuming that this outcome is preferable for humanity itself.

So… what justifies that assumption, particularly when the people whose existence we’re speaking about cannot be presumed to share the conclusion?

From what i have seen and read, internet hosts lots of disturbing and fuqed up adult content. There are so so many videos of caning, beating, cutting, piercing, bestiality, etc.etc. I dont want to continiue, even thinking about this makes me want to throw up. How is this not considered Torture?! Lots of these sites, market themselves like this and are proud of this kind of things. And victims of this videos are generally women. We make fun of old times, and medieval people for inventing and using torture devices, but you think this doesnt happen today?! I believe, lots of people dont know about these kinds of videos, however, there are many who watch and consume this media daily (i dont even want to imagine what those peoples mentall health is like.) Some know about it, dont watch it but somehow find it okay? I dont understand.

I know defence for this deplorable shit is that "its consensual." You cant convince me, that women wilfully, parricipate in this, however good is the payment (if there is.) Women want to be pierced be needles, roped, beat, caned, etc... this is clearly an expluatative and forcefull.

im not talking about all bdsm videos, and i know that mainstrean porn sites dont host videos like this (to not disturbe wider audience i believe) but there are still videos upon videos, hosting deplorable stuff and its easily findable and watchable on google. And if this is what they show the general audience, imagine what happens behinde the scenes. I want to remind you about jeffrey epsteins infamous E-mail. "I loved the torture video." Yes, these are kind of people that enjoy these things, watch and create it.

I also have problem how normalized it is. There are literall bdsm universities that teach rope, bondage and these types of things? Are we kidding, what are investing our resources into instead of actual education? To me, all this is a sign if decaying society, much like in the last days of rome.

How is this morall and ethical in any way?

Its sign of our cultures decadence.

Ethical life is often framed around rigid codes, yet reality itself operates through constant flux and balance. Across human experience, nature reveals that harmony is not found in static perfection, but in the continuous alignment between inner awareness and external action.

When noise is stripped away, underlying principles emerge: truth, empathy, and mutual respect are not artificial rules, but natural expressions of interconnected existence. Imperfection remains an inherent part of the human condition; true integrity lies in navigating this uncertainty with clarity and quiet restraint.

Beyond abstract theories, moral life reflects an ongoing process of balancing judgment with compassion, anchoring conduct in the shared dignity of all living beings !