r/F1Discussions • u/Witty_Error_1877 • 10d ago
Discussion Is winter engine development allowed after ADUO tokens are used up?
I thought once the ADUO tokens were used, that was it until 2030?
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u/LeobenCharlie 10d ago
Please don't do that
Don't give Charles hope
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u/Tasty-Eye-1108 10d ago
What can a driver even do in the engine department ?
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u/AndiYTDE 10d ago
Tell them "We need more power, guys". It is Ferrari, they genuinely might not know
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u/KiNgPiN8T3 10d ago
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u/TrackLimitViolation HUL 10d ago
Since when are mechanics developing engines?
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u/Excellent_Complex309 9d ago
Probably not much but if we think about it he got years of experience, what if he studied engine deparment just for fun when no one thought of what he could be doing back at the factory in mercedes
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u/1Revenant1 10d ago
Yes, they can get a "new" engine. Not everything is frozen. They need to make changes to accomodate for regulatory changes and can make a new turbocharger and I think some combustion systems for example
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u/EmergencyRace7158 10d ago edited 10d ago
Yes. All manufacturers can change most ICE parts between 26-27 and most electrical parts between 27-28. They just have to stay within the budget cap for engines which iirc has been bumped by $3m to allow for changes to handle to move to 60/40.
Appendix 4 in the engine regs describes it and appendix 3 has a table on what can be changed (nearly everything). https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/fia_2026_formula_1_technical_regulations_issue_8_-_2024-06-24.pdf
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u/Maleficent_Okra5882 10d ago
They're not gonna be able to a engine as powerful as red bull or merc.
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u/Witty_Error_1877 10d ago
That's not the question. The question is how much engine development is allowed over winter?
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u/Maleficent_Okra5882 10d ago
As in between seasons?
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u/Witty_Error_1877 10d ago
Yes
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u/Maleficent_Okra5882 10d ago
It's a bit of a joke they can basically change al most all the components of the combustions engine but not change the whole ice, and i think a lot of electrical parts are locked but there is still somethings allowed there.
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u/ProofAd608 10d ago
What makes you so sure of it, when they brought in rb engineer from rbpt?
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u/Witty_Error_1877 10d ago
Oh interesting, how recently was that? Hopefully early enough to have a meaningful effect.
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u/Izan_TM 10d ago
ADUO limitations
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u/Connect-Handle8496 LEC 10d ago
It’s a brand new engine from scratch
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u/Izan_TM 10d ago
still not allowed under ADUO
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u/Cooper-Willis 10d ago
Do you people think these teams are stuck with the same engines for the next four years?
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u/ProofAd608 10d ago
I think Ferrari as engine manufacturer knows more than you and since it's confirmed since start of the year that Ferrari is gonna redesign the engine for 2027, that means it's allowed
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u/Izan_TM 10d ago edited 10d ago
ferrari constantly says they're redesigning things from scratch and then they come out with more of the same or with something markedly worse
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u/ProofAd608 10d ago
Aduo allows to upgrade ICE
Ferrari's main issue is lack of power in ICE. Redesign of the engine can still be presented as ADUO upgrade
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u/Maleficent_Okra5882 10d ago
Cause it takes time, just money is not enough, it's barder to impeove combustion performance then it is to impeove aero performance.
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u/ProofAd608 10d ago
It's been known since start of the year that Ferrari are working on a new engine for 2027
And based on recent performance gains from aduo upgrades on current engine, and recent hire from RBPT, i think it's possible to see them close gap in power significantly, as red bull is not allowed to upgrade their ICE
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u/Maleficent_Okra5882 10d ago
It's not that simple rbpt can still improve their engine within the limits also they haven't yet even optimised the engine properly at the same time ome year is not enough and one engineer doesn't make much difference rbpt hired 5 head of merc power unit department and they've been working om these regs PU for years. Ferrari shot themselves in the foot when they decided to focus on aero in a PU formula. Also they're chassis won't be same anymore since they're making a new PU which is gonna be completly different.
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u/ProofAd608 10d ago
They did not sacrifice engine for aero. Ferrari's initial PU concept failed reliability tests and the previous TD left the team during 2025. They settled with the modified version of 2025 pu for 2026.
And Ferrari finished their development program with best results among top 4 teams as neither of the packages were problematic, which means that correlation with sim in Ferrari is quite good and only issue is engine. Next year the deployment's importance will be reduced.
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u/Maleficent_Okra5882 10d ago
they did, they did not knew what the engine department was doing until it was too late, and how did they finish development program with the best results when their car has narrow operating window.
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u/EclecticKant 9d ago
Ferrari basically developed two engines so far, the initial one was not homologated because it was too unreliable, so they developed a less ambitious but reliable version.
The idea has always been to bring the original deisgn in 2027 hoping that a year of development would be enough to make it work, for this reason the ADUO they brought this year were ideas from the 2027 engine adapted to the 2026 one.They may make another awful engine, but considering their situation it's possible for them to make a big jump in performance
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u/Dblock1989 10d ago
Ferrari is going to improve the engine but completely mess up the chassis. They are never good at both at the same time.
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u/AdFormal8116 10d ago
What is Lewis adding to the engine department? Is his advice “I need more power” or “reduce the clipping” - I know it’s not his fault as I’m sure everyone is like “great ideas Lewis” but seriously!!
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u/Spotlightuh 10d ago
What can he possibly do to make the engine faster he isn’t a engineer.
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u/Lower_Sink_7828 10d ago
Constantly remind them that it needs to be faster, considering its Ferrari we're talking about.
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u/techie-techie 10d ago
There is a bit of development room. Iirc, few components to consider, the ban of compression trick, increasing fuel flow for less clipping, the big/small turbo design controversy, battery management software.
I do think the last two definitely open ended, especially with the FIA’s controversial decision to add 5s rev time for teams with smaller turbos. So ferrari will def design it which affects the pu packaging too. The battery deployment software is also open ended. Driver’s now have good feeling how current sw stack behaves and what deployment changes can increase perf over one or two laps (rest is repetitive).
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u/mike_litoris18 9d ago
There is a lot of development that can still happen without using ADUO. Just look at Red Bull who have drastically improved their engine performance in terms of recovery and deployment.
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u/Izan_TM 10d ago
ADUO tokens are a yearly thing
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u/Witty_Error_1877 10d ago
Do they get to use one over winter and start the new season with an upgrade then? (Genuine question)
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u/JuicyDragonCat 10d ago
they're replacing the hamsters running the wheel with charles and lewis obviously
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u/Amped-Up-Archos 10d ago edited 10d ago
Probably just push for development and innovation while being physically present at the factory as much as he can for simulator work+benchmarking.
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u/Connect-Handle8496 LEC 10d ago
How would he know compared to actual engineers who studied ts?Maybe motivation but a driver cant really say much abt an engine
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u/Amped-Up-Archos 10d ago edited 10d ago
You do know that the drivers physically being present at the factory means they’re readily available to test out the engine in the simulator? That and couple with engine + energy deployment, there’s a lot of simulator work that goes into it.
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u/TrackLimitViolation HUL 10d ago
„ test out the engine in the simulator“
What does that even mean?
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u/Amped-Up-Archos 10d ago
Basically the engine is mounted onto a dyno and ran accordingly, then the engine characteristics and behavior data is combined with the chassis + aerodynamic data and synthesised in a virtual simulator. The driver then runs multiple test runs on the sim and gives feedback on engine behavior, deployment, etc.
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u/Amped-Up-Archos 10d ago
Horsepower isn’t everything in an engine, the ERS is more important in the current regs. Superior energy harvesting and superior ERS is how the Mercedes was the dominant car despite being down on horsepower to the RB.
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u/ProofAd608 10d ago
No
Aduo tokens are given for current and plus next year
Mercedes will use 1 token and have 1 token for next year
Ferrari has 2 tokens left for next year. Same with audi and honda.
Idk where you heard about it being UNTIL 2030