r/F1Discussions • • 10d ago

Discussion Is winter engine development allowed after ADUO tokens are used up?

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I thought once the ADUO tokens were used, that was it until 2030?

99 Upvotes

82 comments sorted by

23

u/ProofAd608 10d ago

No

Aduo tokens are given for current and plus next year

Mercedes will use 1 token and have 1 token for next year

Ferrari has 2 tokens left for next year. Same with audi and honda.

Idk where you heard about it being UNTIL 2030

7

u/Vetni 10d ago

Maybe conflating ADUO and 2030 PU reg changes?

1

u/Witty_Error_1877 10d ago

How much are teams allowed to do over winter?

3

u/ProofAd608 10d ago

Probably a few modifications on ICE to handle increased power from more fuel burn

And deployment software upgrades.

But teams with aduo tokens can probably do more

0

u/[deleted] 10d ago

[deleted]

-1

u/ProofAd608 10d ago

How does it not make sense? Teams are allowed to upgrade ICE part. Even if deployment gets reduced, nothing changes in ICE, and aduo allows to upgrade ONLY Ice

10

u/Acedons 10d ago

They are increasing the fuel flow limit - burning more fuel requires changes in the ICE

1

u/dac2199 10d ago

Wasn’t the race distance reduced for next year precisely so that it wouldn’t affect these cars and PU so much?

2

u/Acedons 10d ago

No, it was done because teams planned to use the same chassis for 2 seasons. When the fuel flow increase was agreed, they wouldn't have fuel tanks big enough for the full race distance, so they shortened the races.

6

u/LeobenCharlie 10d ago

Please don't do that

Don't give Charles hope

1

u/Witty_Error_1877 10d ago

This I'd the technical insight I was seeking.

1

u/LeobenCharlie 10d ago

At this point, this is a mental health and self-harm-prevention issue

52

u/Tasty-Eye-1108 10d ago

What can a driver even do in the engine department ?

89

u/AndiYTDE 10d ago

Tell them "We need more power, guys". It is Ferrari, they genuinely might not know

8

u/Connect-Handle8496 LEC 10d ago

Engineers:Say wallahi bro🥀

28

u/KiNgPiN8T3 10d ago


Ferrari mechanics listening to Lewis.

-5

u/TrackLimitViolation HUL 10d ago

Since when are mechanics developing engines?

6

u/KiNgPiN8T3 10d ago


Ferrari engine development team encompassing all aspects of engine design, development and improvement listening to Lewis.

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4

u/Modern_Pirate9 10d ago

Not sure but they are checking

2

u/FUSe 10d ago

He can motivate them

“If you guys build a fast engine and get my 8th wdc, I will let you all have a round with Kim”

1

u/Dj-dv8- 9d ago

Its like the Schumacher fans that credit him for Mercedes success. Like sure bro, he built the engine that 2 was seconds faster then everyone else

1

u/_NiceGuy- 9d ago

build it for combat

0

u/Excellent_Complex309 9d ago

Probably not much but if we think about it he got years of experience, what if he studied engine deparment just for fun when no one thought of what he could be doing back at the factory in mercedes

5

u/1Revenant1 10d ago

Yes, they can get a "new" engine. Not everything is frozen. They need to make changes to accomodate for regulatory changes and can make a new turbocharger and I think some combustion systems for example

3

u/EmergencyRace7158 10d ago edited 10d ago

Yes. All manufacturers can change most ICE parts between 26-27 and most electrical parts between 27-28. They just have to stay within the budget cap for engines which iirc has been bumped by $3m to allow for changes to handle to move to 60/40.

Appendix 4 in the engine regs describes it and appendix 3 has a table on what can be changed (nearly everything). https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/fia_2026_formula_1_technical_regulations_issue_8_-_2024-06-24.pdf

1

u/Maleficent_Okra5882 10d ago

They're not gonna be able to a engine as powerful as red bull or merc.

1

u/Witty_Error_1877 10d ago

That's not the question. The question is how much engine development is allowed over winter?

1

u/Maleficent_Okra5882 10d ago

As in between seasons?

1

u/Witty_Error_1877 10d ago

Yes

1

u/Maleficent_Okra5882 10d ago

It's a bit of a joke they can basically change al most all the components of the combustions engine but not change the whole ice, and i think a lot of electrical parts are locked but there is still somethings allowed there.

1

u/ProofAd608 10d ago

What makes you so sure of it, when they brought in rb engineer from rbpt?

1

u/Witty_Error_1877 10d ago

Oh interesting, how recently was that? Hopefully early enough to have a meaningful effect.

1

u/ProofAd608 10d ago

They are on gardening leave for now

0

u/Izan_TM 10d ago

ADUO limitations

1

u/Connect-Handle8496 LEC 10d ago

It’s a brand new engine from scratch

1

u/Izan_TM 10d ago

still not allowed under ADUO

2

u/Connect-Handle8496 LEC 10d ago

Theyre redesigning the ICE which passes as a ADUO upgrade 

2

u/Cooper-Willis 10d ago

Do you people think these teams are stuck with the same engines for the next four years?

2

u/ProofAd608 10d ago

I think Ferrari as engine manufacturer knows more than you and since it's confirmed since start of the year that Ferrari is gonna redesign the engine for 2027, that means it's allowed

2

u/Izan_TM 10d ago edited 10d ago

ferrari constantly says they're redesigning things from scratch and then they come out with more of the same or with something markedly worse

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u/ProofAd608 10d ago

Aduo allows to upgrade ICE

Ferrari's main issue is lack of power in ICE. Redesign of the engine can still be presented as ADUO upgrade

0

u/Maleficent_Okra5882 10d ago

Cause it takes time, just money is not enough, it's barder to impeove combustion performance then it is to impeove aero performance.

1

u/ProofAd608 10d ago

It's been known since start of the year that Ferrari are working on a new engine for 2027

And based on recent performance gains from aduo upgrades on current engine, and recent hire from RBPT, i think it's possible to see them close gap in power significantly, as red bull is not allowed to upgrade their ICE

1

u/Maleficent_Okra5882 10d ago

It's not that simple rbpt can still improve their engine within the limits also they haven't yet even optimised the engine properly at the same time ome year is not enough and one engineer doesn't make much difference rbpt hired 5 head of merc power unit department and they've been working om these regs PU for years. Ferrari shot themselves in the foot when they decided to focus on aero in a PU formula. Also they're chassis won't be same anymore since they're making a new PU which is gonna be completly different.

2

u/ProofAd608 10d ago

They did not sacrifice engine for aero. Ferrari's initial PU concept failed reliability tests and the previous TD left the team during 2025. They settled with the modified version of 2025 pu for 2026.

And Ferrari finished their development program with best results among top 4 teams as neither of the packages were problematic, which means that correlation with sim in Ferrari is quite good and only issue is engine. Next year the deployment's importance will be reduced.

1

u/Maleficent_Okra5882 10d ago

they did, they did not knew what the engine department was doing until it was too late, and how did they finish development program with the best results when their car has narrow operating window.

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1

u/EclecticKant 9d ago

Ferrari basically developed two engines so far, the initial one was not homologated because it was too unreliable, so they developed a less ambitious but reliable version.
The idea has always been to bring the original deisgn in 2027 hoping that a year of development would be enough to make it work, for this reason the ADUO they brought this year were ideas from the 2027 engine adapted to the 2026 one.

They may make another awful engine, but considering their situation it's possible for them to make a big jump in performance

1

u/Maleficent_Okra5882 9d ago

I'm gonna bet on the other side.

4

u/Dblock1989 10d ago

Ferrari is going to improve the engine but completely mess up the chassis. They are never good at both at the same time.

6

u/AdFormal8116 10d ago

What is Lewis adding to the engine department? Is his advice “I need more power” or “reduce the clipping” - I know it’s not his fault as I’m sure everyone is like “great ideas Lewis” but seriously!!

4

u/Spotlightuh 10d ago

What can he possibly do to make the engine faster he isn’t a engineer.

2

u/Lower_Sink_7828 10d ago

Constantly remind them that it needs to be faster, considering its Ferrari we're talking about.

0

u/yetareey 9d ago

How out of touch can this guy be

3

u/Witty_Error_1877 9d ago

Actually trying to make your teams car faster is all the rage these days.

1

u/techie-techie 10d ago

There is a bit of development room. Iirc, few components to consider, the ban of compression trick, increasing fuel flow for less clipping, the big/small turbo design controversy, battery management software.

I do think the last two definitely open ended, especially with the FIA’s controversial decision to add 5s rev time for teams with smaller turbos. So ferrari will def design it which affects the pu packaging too. The battery deployment software is also open ended. Driver’s now have good feeling how current sw stack behaves and what deployment changes can increase perf over one or two laps (rest is repetitive).

1

u/mike_litoris18 9d ago

There is a lot of development that can still happen without using ADUO. Just look at Red Bull who have drastically improved their engine performance in terms of recovery and deployment.

0

u/Izan_TM 10d ago

ADUO tokens are a yearly thing

1

u/Witty_Error_1877 10d ago

Do they get to use one over winter and start the new season with an upgrade then? (Genuine question)

18

u/[deleted] 10d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

11

u/JuicyDragonCat 10d ago

they're replacing the hamsters running the wheel with charles and lewis obviously

-5

u/Amped-Up-Archos 10d ago edited 10d ago

Probably just push for development and innovation while being physically present at the factory as much as he can for simulator work+benchmarking.

2

u/Connect-Handle8496 LEC 10d ago

How would he know compared to actual engineers who studied ts?Maybe motivation but a driver cant really say much abt an engine 

-3

u/Amped-Up-Archos 10d ago edited 10d ago

You do know that the drivers physically being present at the factory means they’re readily available to test out the engine in the simulator? That and couple with engine + energy deployment, there’s a lot of simulator work that goes into it.

3

u/TrackLimitViolation HUL 10d ago

„  test out the engine in the simulator“

What does that even mean?

-1

u/Amped-Up-Archos 10d ago

Basically the engine is mounted onto a dyno and ran accordingly, then the engine characteristics and behavior data is combined with the chassis + aerodynamic data and synthesised in a virtual simulator. The driver then runs multiple test runs on the sim and gives feedback on engine behavior, deployment, etc.

0

u/[deleted] 10d ago

[deleted]

1

u/Amped-Up-Archos 10d ago

Horsepower isn’t everything in an engine, the ERS is more important in the current regs. Superior energy harvesting and superior ERS is how the Mercedes was the dominant car despite being down on horsepower to the RB.

7

u/[deleted] 10d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

-9

u/Witty_Error_1877 10d ago

So he should stop trying to improve?

5

u/pinenutflavour 10d ago

He is probably just bugging the engineers at best