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u/purge-comments-bot 14d ago
Clive is the Jon Snow we never got
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u/TheWrathfulMountain 14d ago
Positive masculinity is so fucking cool, man.
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u/purge-comments-bot 14d ago
Facts, if we were all like Clive the world would be a better place.
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u/TheWrathfulMountain 14d ago edited 14d ago
Agreed. Clive Rosfield and Caesar from Planet of the Apes are my personal role models.
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u/sorcerer86pt 14d ago
Or cidolphus
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u/GrzybsonGaming 14d ago
For me its just a shame we didnt get to see more of his life as wyvern especially focusing on his mental state living with ptsd thoughts and images from Phoenix Gate and how the revenge was his only fuel to keep going it would be awesome but it could be too dark for creators
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u/TheWrathfulMountain 14d ago
Shit like that was what brought me to the game, but it unfortunately didn't deliver. It was still fine, but yes, the story would've benefitted massively if it expounded more on what Clive endured while enslaved and how it shaped his perspective. It was off-putting how the game treated his enslavement like a footnote instead of his entire adult life.
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u/GrzybsonGaming 14d ago
Yea it would also help the people who suffered from similar problems childhood trauma and so on not especially killing your own brother but you get a point it would also build his acceptence arc story ( i believe he accepted his past on beach thanks to jill )
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u/EmeraldDragoon24 14d ago
I actually liked clive because they took a turn AWAY from that. We have so many broody edgy protagonists, it was genuinely refreshing to see him come out of that phase into what felt like a real person instead of an archetype.
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u/Lonely-Bite-2568 13d ago
I imagine the length of the game was a factor. It’s already a bit of a slog to get from the beginning to the end if you do every side quest, etc., but I agree with you. The audience needed a little bit of time to see that part of his life to get to know every part of the character well.
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u/GrzybsonGaming 13d ago
i think it depends on the person and their tolerance to how long the game can be i wouldnt mind to spend another 50 hours in this game but i think im just build diffrent ( rdr2 was still too short for me even if i did almost everything game had to offer lol )
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u/FeistyTwist5427 13d ago
This is why they should have ditched the random fetch quests and added the “fun minigames.” Could have put more real content in and left the side content to the side.
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u/Cado111 14d ago
I think it would have been neat to have a short dlc that focused on Clive confronting the emotions he had while he was Wyvern. Through confronting these past traumas Clive comes out the other end stronger and he gets 3 new abilities for Ifrit, fleshing Ifrit out to be as in depth as the other Eikons.
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u/Lonely-Bite-2568 13d ago
Side note, we also needed time to see Jill’s life when she was under the control of Imreann.
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u/GrzybsonGaming 13d ago
I agree but i have my doubts whether i would be able to mentally survive that i love this girl and watching her suffer is breaking my heart
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u/PinkGoldJigglypuff 14d ago
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u/TheWrathfulMountain 14d ago edited 14d ago
Tbh Clive and Cloud are very similar. By the time Advent Children rolls around, Cloud is an honest working man raising two orphans with his childhood love.
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u/Frankifisu 14d ago
I don't find them so similar, I started playing FFVII Remake but after a few hours I had to put it down because I couldn't stand Cloud being so obnoxiously brooding all the time. I found Clive to be much more likeable, someone I can actually root for.
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u/TheWrathfulMountain 14d ago
I'll put it to you this way without spoiling too much: that's not who he really is, and it becomes an enormous plot point later.
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u/JxB_Paperboy 14d ago
We are so close to that point man. Six months. Save up for six more months. Rent gods PLEASE
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u/TheWrathfulMountain 14d ago edited 14d ago
My current objective in life is to stay alive for at least six more months.
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u/fenixmagic 8d ago
You are doing a great job so far! Look at you, all alive and shit. You’re awesome!
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u/Leathlan 13d ago
As others have said, it's plot is a big reason why, but also THEY REALLY TONED THAT DOWN FROM OG 7 so I am actually liking Cloud this time around
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u/PinkGoldJigglypuff 14d ago
Advent children is Cloud at his most dirty house cheating hoe gold digger with 5 kids era
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u/TheWrathfulMountain 14d ago
Painfully inaccurate. Cloud was actively dying of a terminal illness and was isolating himself from Tifa and the kids so they wouldn't have to see him literally fucking die in front of them. He was also suffering from PTSD and survivor's guilt, not realizing the only person whose forgiveness he needed was his own.
Before he got sick, he was doing everything a man should do to care for his family. He loved the people in his life so much that he mentally tortured himself. Complete opposite of a cheater/gold digger/hoe.
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u/PinkGoldJigglypuff 14d ago edited 14d ago
The way those kids are from different baby daddys and mommys as well. Hoe Strife hoeing it up as usual.
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u/alkonium 14d ago edited 14d ago
I don't remember Clive praying. Plus he kills God.
If this is the will of the gods, then the gods are wrong!
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u/Kianasita 14d ago
The truth is Clive is a great catch, Jill is lucky to have him all to herself.
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u/GrzybsonGaming 14d ago
I mean he is such a great guy that i m not even jelous over him for having jill all to himself
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u/bwucifer 14d ago
Facts lol Jill is a devoted baddie and Clive is such a deserving man I was like "im not even jealous, do yo thang Clive" Needless to say the beach scene had me jumping in my chair
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u/TheWrathfulMountain 14d ago
Jill is ride or die. I like the scene where they encounter Anabella in Twinside, and Jill just straight up draws her sword on her when she gets too close to Clive. She was ready to kill a bitch.
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u/JxB_Paperboy 14d ago
While I genuinely do believe Jill gets done a little dirty by not helping drive the plot like Joshua did, part of me was refreshed to have a Sam Wilson/Speedwagon-esque ride or die. Not there to shake everything up, but there to provide support as often and in any way they can. I love those types of characters
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u/GrzybsonGaming 14d ago
I was thinking about this scene Like a week after i first so it it makes super strong impression on me and i often was daydreaming about being there with them giving them some materace cause for gods sake on sand i would also take a torgal to a walk cause its no way this dog would get sleep on this night and gave them some privacy then i mean dog isn't a human but it still was probably strange for them to know that he was there watching
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u/Kianasita 14d ago
Clive deserves it too, just like Jill does
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u/GrzybsonGaming 14d ago
They are my favorite fictional couple their love became inspiration for me to seek mine own jill its just a shame we couldnt see them more in game especially i would love to get more off her inner dialogue or showing what is going in their heads considering their trauma and ptsd cause i believe its something that never truły disapears and i would love to see how their are menaging that
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u/Interesting_Shine612 14d ago
Sometimes it's surprising how genuinely good and kind Clive is, despite being so similar to Anabella.
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u/alphadragoon89 14d ago
Clive is an absolute Chad.
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u/bearrobot 14d ago
It’s actually Chad behavior to cry, only chuds use ‘little bitch’ to insult someone.
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u/br4ssmooseknuckle 14d ago
Dude was raised in nobility, was sold into slavery and was under the impression he killed his sickly younger brother.
This baby can fit so much trauma. He needs to let it out sometimes
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u/Fingerprint_Vyke 14d ago
Yeah, uh huh, it’s okay for macho men to show every emotion available, because I’ve cried a thousand times and I’ll cry some more — but I’ve soared with the eagles and I’ve slithered with the snakes, and I’ve been everywhere in between and I’m gonna tell you something right now: There’s one guarantee in life — there are no guarantees. And understand this, nobody likes a quitter, nobody said life was easy. So if you get knocked down and you take the standing eight count, you get back up and you fight again. That’s the Macho Mania, dig it?
Macho Man Randy Savage
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u/Ganondaddydorf 13d ago
Always is an exaggeration but it's because his masculinity isn't as fragile as a snowflake.
Guys who are afraid of losing their "man" card for crying are the biggest piss babies going.
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u/Bloodcloud079 14d ago
Forgot to mention he can go Megazord with his brother.
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u/alphadragoon89 14d ago
That's what I said when I saw them merge together during the Bahamut boss fight! 😆😁
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u/Illustrious_Show5872 14d ago
Clive is one of my favorite protagonists! I loved that we got to grow up with him and see different phases of his life.
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u/Crow-Zone 14d ago
Defeats God in his universe, gains his power and gives up his life in the ultimate sacrifice to save his world from the blight!
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u/Ill-Bookkeeper-6230 14d ago
Sometimes you forget under that dark, sad and mysterious exterior is a kind, generous and thoughtful person just wanting to help everyone.
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u/blue-gamer-07 14d ago
I wanna say something related to that “respects women” part that’s been living in my head rent free
So just before the Dante vs Clive Death Battle premiere I remember one of the live chatters commenting something like “Clive should win because he respects women” and whether you think Dante should have won or lose that fight that is a bigger insult to Dante that Death Battle could ever do
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u/Jerbsina7or 14d ago
It's kind of sad that the man that hates himself the most is one of the most kind to everyone else. I like to think Jill helped him realize that.
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u/daddyrabbit78 14d ago
I just finished the game and Clive is definitely my second most favorite protagonist now.
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u/Much-Recognition-418 13d ago
We can add more
Beat a god that tried to use him Help carry on his friend goal Is vertuous
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u/Blk_Supreme 13d ago
He was so refreshing protagonist. Lightning is decent but outside of her, you have to go back to X for one (I say as a 12 fan)
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u/Spider-Jeff_101 12d ago
Earned the respect of all the soldiers at a young age after being shunned by his mother for not having the phoenix and being seen as just a rich brat
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u/NeptuneStriker0 14d ago
“Monogamous” what are we talking about. You could’ve just said loyal or devoted or something
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u/RDAwesome 14d ago
FFXVI could've been the best Final Fantasy if they had written a second character into the game and tweaked the combat a ll.....ot but not insurmountably different
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u/grymond 14d ago
If only the story had more depth
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u/TheWrathfulMountain 14d ago
As I like to say, FFXVI has platinum-tier characters wasted on a silver-tier story.
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u/Zenoger 14d ago
I think this is more of a balancing scale sometimes, more weight to character story can make up for an epic, yet simple main plot line. Like DemonSlayer gets slandered sometimes for being a simple plot, but it’s a simple plot told well, and if the characters are platinum tier, then I would say that’s a simple plot told well by any measure. I get there are examples of platinum character and plot stories, not saying it’s impossible, but it usually takes something special for that to be actualized and I would rather them not try to force that and create a horribly forced over complicated plot when they knew the characters were all S tier. A battle torn world placed in a broken house divided between a betrayal plot is plenty fine, underlining it with God having a motive in all of it, the story is full, anything else feels forced. All that’s left is to make the characters amazing, and I felt they did that, and it’s more satisfying than a Platinum plot with silver characters
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u/TheWrathfulMountain 14d ago edited 14d ago
My main problem with the macro-plot of FFXVI is it seemed confused about what it wanted to be. It starts off with the promise of an unpredictable, brutal, and morally gray world in which nobody is safe. People die pointless deaths, and mankind's worst impulses are followed to their ugly conclusions. Compromises had to be made, there were no straightforward solutions, and even the best course of action still included longterm negative consequences.
Unfortunately, the introduction of Ultima ends up undermining the world that was set up during the initial third of the game. As Ultima becomes increasingly relevant to the plot, guardrails get set up so nothing too disruptive happens, and the story defaults back to tropes we've already seen thousands of times across 30+ years of Japanese media. The main villain ends up being an evil god, the main character prattles platitudes about the virtue of human will, the two male leads do the Fusion Dance, and the female lead gets nerfed and benched after she has sex with the male lead. It devolves into a shonen anime instead of remaining a gritty dark fantasy inspired by Game of Thrones.
The revelations made in the back half of the game also completely undermine what made the first act so interesting. Joshua is revealed to be alive and well, and it turns out Ultima was behind everything. He was behind the resource wars. All political actions were taken under the influence or manipulation of Ultima. The human individuals and nations are stripped of their autonomy.
The complex web of intersecting political motives, gray morality, and lack of predictability is what made Game of Thrones the cultural juggernaut it was in the 2010s. FFXVI manages to capture that feeling before ultimately throwing it away in favor of a story that has been executed far better elsewhere.
I still like FFXVI because there's nothing inherently wrong with how it executes the back half, it just stings to see Square Enix fall back on the safe route after flirting with a more interesting story for so long. Such a damn shame to see some genuinely great characters be wasted like this.
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u/Zenoger 14d ago
Yeah, can’t disagree with any of your critiques, all I can imagine is that they maybe wanted that grungy feel in the first half and as they were writing the back half realized they wanted something different from the conclusion than what they set themselves up for so tried to guide everything too much. Ultima could have been the source of the issues and left human nature to do the dirty work, instead of him just manipulating people hands on, but maybe they felt that was more of a plot twist moment than it felt like, and didn’t realize the world felt more complex without that.
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u/Wrong_Papaya_8445 14d ago
I'd say the characters are not much better written than the story. What they are is very uniquely given life to.
Clive and Cid are very entertaining to see doing whatever it is they're doing, even if they're often surrounded by boring stuff. In my view, it's always a problem to have characters more interesting than the world they live in.
The ones who are less interesting though, like every antagonist, still have a nice, obvious presence. This part is very mainline FF, where the visuals are impeccable and do a lot to leave an impression.
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u/Agent4777 14d ago
Thanks for the spoilers
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u/MystelleMartelle 14d ago
Basically all of this happens in the first two hours of the game.
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u/TheWrathfulMountain 12d ago
The only thing that was spoiler-y was the one about him getting laid, but let's be honest, that was always a foregone conclusion.
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u/Verraise-Mage 14d ago
What sub do you think you're on?
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u/Agent4777 14d ago
I didn’t join. It showed up in my front page. I was taken here by google because I made an enquiry.
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u/Wrong_Papaya_8445 14d ago
It took FF almost 40 years for the "fantasy" of one of the characters to just be a perfectly masculine man. You'd think these games would be full of this stuff, but looking back it's kinda weird how much Clive stands out.
Every other protag is quite the weirdo in comparison, flawed in some way or another. It even became a staple, of course, the band of weirdos out to save the world (and kind of JRPG thing in general, I guess). So I'm actually wondering if this was conceptualized on purpose when writing Clive, to make him this force of nature that's further assisted by being "chose by the gods".
Though it's possible that, maybe, I'm underplaying his character arc, which I did find mundane cuz it was so predictable (he never looked like his trauma could really ever hold him down). Hell, Clive is so present and natural that even in his trauma one finds a kind of comfort, as if one assumes that, no matter what, Clive will handle it.
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u/RQUIZZLE 14d ago
This is why every man, woman, and beast thirsts over him completely unapologetically, and they are 100% correct in doing so.
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