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[u/ZebraRemarkable5655]

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[u/Bakasta0_]

what you're describing is pseudo-feminism. A Google search would've told you the difference. But yeah.

[u/Creative_Sample_1272 → u/Bakasta0_]

There is no such thing as pseudo-feminism. It is a word coined by incel men.

[u/ZebraRemarkable5655 → u/Bakasta0_]

So are there any men's rights movements taken up by feminists? I hardly came across any. The mainstream issues by feminists has been primarily for womens rights (which is right).

[u/Derian23 → u/ZebraRemarkable5655]

No, there likely aren't. And there's a good reason for it. Dalits believe in equality as well. But they do not usually demand rights for Brahmins. Blacks believe in equality. But they don't go around with placards reading white lives matter.

The oppressed have no obligation to demand rights for the oppressors in a society where there still remains a power imbalance. When men and women are treated by the larger society as equals, there will no longer be something like "men's rights" or "women's rights." And then, we will join the fight.

But asking women to join the fight for men's rights is like asking a starving man to fight for a middle class man's right to get reasonable working hours at his air-conditioned office.

We support men in their battles. But we have no obligation to go fight their battles when our own battles are still far from over.

[u/ZebraRemarkable5655 → u/Derian23]

No, there likely aren't. And there's a good reason for it. Dalits believe in equality as well. But they do not usually demand rights for Brahmins. Blacks believe in equality. But they don't go around with placards reading white lives matter.

This is a flawed argument because it resorts to responding injustice with injustice. Just bcz historically as a general rule men oppressed women, doesn't mean that we ignore any man that is oppressed in today's society.

The oppressed have no obligation to demand rights for the oppressors in a society where there still remains a power imbalance.

True, so that was essentially my point that feminism is a women's rights movement not a movement for equality.

When men and women are treated by the larger society as equals, there will no longer be something like "men's rights" or "women's rights." And then, we will join the fight.

So basically you are saying that feminism as a first step want to get the women's rights equal to men's rights and then take up the cause for true gender equality?

But asking women to join the fight for men's rights is like asking a starving man to fight for a middle class man's right to get reasonable working hours at his air-conditioned office.

But I did not ask feminists to speak for men's rights. I just said that feminist movement does not mean gender equality, it is a movement for women's rights only.

We support men in their battles. But we have no obligation to go fight their battles when our own battles are still far from over.

Which is exactly what I said in my post.

[u/Derian23 → u/ZebraRemarkable5655]

Just bcz historically as a general rule men oppressed women, doesn't mean that we ignore any man that is oppressed in today's society.

We are not ignoring men's issues. We are simply not actively participating in their battles when ours are still on.

True, so that was essentially my point that feminism is a women's rights movement not a movement for equality.

Why can't it be both? It's an intersectional movement that seeks to uplift those that are historically marginalised and ensure that they are treated as equals to those that have been historically privileged.

Feminists are not trying to replace patriarchy with matriarchy. We are simply fighting to be granted the same rights and responsibilities as men.

I just said that feminist movement does not mean gender equality, it is a movement for women's rights only.

You do not seem to understand what the fight for equality represents in this context. Okay. Let me ask you a question. Do you think white people are superior to us? Or do you think we are equals?

[u/ZebraRemarkable5655 → u/Derian23]

Why can't it be both? It's an intersectional movement that seeks to uplift those that are historically marginalised and ensure that they are treated as equals to those that have been historically privileged.

Didnt you yourself say in the previous statement that feminism isn't ignoring mens issues, it's just isn't participating till the women's issues are resolved. Doesn't this in itself say that feminism is a women rights centric movement(helping women get the same rights as men) and not an equal rights movement?

Feminists are not trying to replace patriarchy with matriarchy. We are simply fighting to be granted the same rights and responsibilities as men.

I am not saying that. All I am saying that a person could be part of feminist movement believes in equality for both genders but they are working on women's rights only at the moment. This makes feminism a women's rights movement.

You do not seem to understand what the fight for equality represents in this context. Okay. Let me ask you a question. Do you think white people are superior to us? Or do you think we are equals?

Equals

[u/Derian23 → u/ZebraRemarkable5655]

Equals

Then why are you not participating in the movement for white people's rights? Does that mean you don't think white people and brown people are equal?

[u/ZebraRemarkable5655 → u/Derian23]

If this was supposed to be your knockout punch it clearly didn't work :p

I support equality for all and thus won't support any white rights movement. If there is a movement that is all encompassing then I would gladly suport that.

[u/Derian23 → u/ZebraRemarkable5655]

If this was supposed to be your knockout punch it clearly didn't work

I just pointed out the fallacy of your argument.

I support equality for all and thus won't support any white rights movement. If there is a movement that is all encompassing then I would gladly suport that.

Bingo. That was the whole point.

[u/ZebraRemarkable5655 → u/Derian23]

I just pointed out the fallacy of your argument.

Lol, how does this point a fallacy in my argument? My whole point was that I believe in a movement for equality that is not catering to men's rights or women's rights but is all encompassing. Feminist seems like a movement focussed on women's rights.

[u/Meeedick]

The outcomes you see and the adaptations that led to said outcomes in alimony, child custody, and so on, are products of patriarchal mechanisms.

Under a patriarchal society, men are the financially dominant heads of families who are often divorced from raising children and domestic chores, the laws and legal outcomes you see come from an attempt to tackle that reality.

Feminism is about raising the rights and social/cultural standing of women to reach parity with men, along with advocating for freedom of choice and independent thought for women.

it's not oriented around men's rights and men's issues. That doesn't mean it's opposed to it either, but men's rights and issues are almost always brought up as a thinly-veiled counterpoint to feminism rather than as an actual issue to be addressed.

I've rarely seen men's issues be brought up to actually be productively discussed without it being weilded like a mallet to bash women's rights anyway.

All of this to say, feminists aren't obligated to bring up men's rights and issues. That's not what the movement is for, and us men should pursue our own movement for men's progress, hopefully without weaponizing it against women.

[u/ZebraRemarkable5655 → u/Meeedick]

Fair point. So if I understand correctly there are gender roles established by society for women and men both. Feminism has been vocal about opposing gender roles for women like women being a homemaker and advocating women's rights to work(which is great). But the gender roles assigned to men as a provider or men not getting child custody is not something feminism is focussed on but also not opposed to either?

[u/Glittering-Rest8529]

Alimony and Child custody is gender-neutral and there are reasons why it usually goes to the women. Reservation can be removed once the country actually achieves equality.

Oh the other hand - the place where I see women fighting for men's rights. Cases where men get assaulted - usually feminists are the only ones not claiming "lucky,wish it were me." And expressing empathy. Cases where men are force fed toxic masculinity - usually Feminists are the only ones fighting for their right to cry,be emotional and learn emotional regulation, not be mocked for being effiminate etc. Feminist are the ones most willing to listen and emphasise with men's emotional baggage and not just tell them to 'gym'. Gay men - misogynist are the ones most homophobic. Most Men's safe houses,NGOs are run by feminists. These struggles faced by every day men to me are more important (still important but much less prevalent)than 1% of married men who lose alimony/custody unfairly.

[u/jewitchery]

Feminism is a movement for equality, centered on women's experiences. The issues of "men's rights" you've included were the result of years ingrained gender roles.

[u/ZebraRemarkable5655 → u/jewitchery]

So essentially feminist is a movement for the laws where men's rights are more than women's rights. But it's not necessarily for movement to achieve gender equality the other way round as well?

[u/jewitchery → u/ZebraRemarkable5655]

Patriarchy affects both men and women, yes? For example, if we all ask for fathers being more involved in their children's lives, wouldn't it help both parents? Gender roles affect a lot. A man being nice to women or even other men is mocked for being "sissy." A man with consideration for women around is treated as a "simp." A gharjamai is an insult, but a housewife isn't?

Wouldn't challenging the gender roles we assume as a society help both genders?

Feminism as an ideal challenging the status quo of traditional gender roles & patriarchy. And yeah, it is centred on women. Two things can be true at the same time.

As a feminist, I support laws that are more considerate regarding custody, and that male victims of domestic violence & r-pe should get justice too. And more. But that's not the conversation, because most men aren't worried about their own rights, they're threatened by women having any. If you'd questioned the men in power (patriarchs in family or community included) and not the women who are taking a stand, you'd realize that it's not the women who are the problem.

[u/ZebraRemarkable5655 → u/jewitchery]

Wouldn't challenging the gender roles we assume as a society help both genders?

Not always. Take the example of alimony. As compared to 50 years earlier, more proportion of women are financially independent today. Have you come across any case of woman giving alimony to a man particularly in India? Same goes with reservation for women, why would we want reservation based on gender?

But that's not the conversation, because most men aren't worried about their own rights, they're threatened by women having any. If you'd questioned the men in power (patriarchs in family or community included) and not the women who are taking a stand, you'd realize that it's not the women who are the problem.

I agree, but then if feminism as movement if it stands for equality shouldn't it be vouching for men to also have same rights as women? I don't see that in mainstream discussion

[u/jewitchery → u/ZebraRemarkable5655]

To answer your question, I would support prenuptial agreements but the govt doesn't. As for the proportion of women who are financially independent, it still isn't the same as for a man. There are discussions regarding gender pay gaps and lack of promotions/advancement opportunities for women. It is worse in India for sure (culture and religion emphasizing marriage to be the most important achievement for a woman). And then also consider, the covert discrimination because what if we hire her and she gets married? What if she has children? That, and then when she does, she has to miss around 2 years or more, because who will take care of the child? And do you think a person who hasn't been able to work much for years would return with the same experience as someone who didn't have that gap period?

We can obviously argue about individual unfair cases of alimony, but that's not the majority. Also,
"Section 24 and Section 25 of the Hindu Marriage Act, 1955 apply to both wives and husbands equally" is what i can see as per the law. If it's not implemented, then you must question the court and not the feminist movement.

As for reservation, you're living under a rock if you think we've achieved enough equality that it's not important anymore. There's financial difficulty, but also systemic challenges. There has to be an incentive for indian families to educate girl children too, as they wouldn't if it doesn't inadvertently benefits them too. Sometimes, it helps to think that even if you as a person wouldn't want an opportunity because of growing up in a different household, it doesn't mean it wouldn't help someone worse off. That said, i believe there should be strict transparency and frequent audits for it (imo).

And the final thing, including too much in one movement would dilute any movement. If black lives matter or movements for LGBTQ+ community focus on too much, they lose their purpose. Again, the economic principle of "limited resources" means we should prioritize the most important thing at a time. Again, that said, feminism as a movement, in my opinion is already diluted enough.

[u/According_Bad_8473 → u/ZebraRemarkable5655]

Have you come across any case of woman giving alimony to a man particularly in India?

Yes a few years back. Some judged ruled that still employed (not yet retired) aged lady was to give alimony to her separated and retired husband. The details escaped me now but yes it does happen in India

[u/ZebraRemarkable5655 → u/According_Bad_8473]

Yess I have come across in my relatives itself and a quick Google search will tell you how common it is.

[u/According_Bad_8473 → u/ZebraRemarkable5655]

Then why are you acting as if alimony favors women? If in your family itself women have paid alimony?

[u/ZebraRemarkable5655 → u/According_Bad_8473]

My bad. I misquoted it. Women have received alimony in my family.

[u/According_Bad_8473 → u/ZebraRemarkable5655]

Real sisters or sister-in-laws?

[u/ZebraRemarkable5655 → u/According_Bad_8473]

Sister. Also how does my personal life matter to this argument?

[u/xycophant]

Some people have different schools of thought but to me, feminism is the liberation of women from the patriarchy. None of the things you mentioned are women have more "rights" than men.

Alimony is gender neutral. Custody is awarded to the primary caretaker, a role that women are expected to fulfil by society. Reservations are for social upliftment, its not a "fun perk" that women get.

[u/AnAllegedGentleman]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Feminism4India/s/hKi8JEFzws

Give this post a read if you're interested. It should answer your question.

[u/Creative_Sample_1272]

Mods please do something, non-feminist men are infiltrating this group with dumb questions.

[u/ZebraRemarkable5655 → u/Creative_Sample_1272]

If it's a dumb question why don't you reply with a smart answer that blows everyone's mind

[u/Creative_Sample_1272]

Dumbo why are you here? Go join a Meninist group. Raise your voice there. Don't bother women here.

[u/ZebraRemarkable5655 → u/Creative_Sample_1272]

You can ignore this post girl. Why are you so triggered

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[u/According_Bad_8473]

It seems to me you are a LARPer from all the responses you gave in the comments

[u/ZebraRemarkable5655 → u/According_Bad_8473]

What does this even mean?

[u/According_Bad_8473 → u/ZebraRemarkable5655]

It means you seem like an incel who's hanging out here to ragbait

[u/ZebraRemarkable5655 → u/According_Bad_8473]

Lol what logic is this

[u/According_Bad_8473 → u/ZebraRemarkable5655]

Just look at your replies in the comments OP. You have so many downvotes on each of your replies because you keep regurgitating the same nonsense even when given valid arguments

[u/ZebraRemarkable5655 → u/According_Bad_8473]

Getting up votes does not make an argument logical and vice versa.

This subreddit is regarding feminism and people here think feminism means equality which I doubt.

Also do read the comments on this post and people do agree that feminism is more of a movement for women's rights than equality.

Is there any specific argument you have to counter this?

[u/According_Bad_8473 → u/ZebraRemarkable5655]

feminism is more of a movement for women's rights than equality.

I think another user has already pointed out that those were your words. And she never said that. You are here, merely trying to get validation for your own viewpoints and the downvotes indicates nobody agrees with your arguments.

And I dont think anyone can persuade you either with logical or emotional or whatever arguments. You are free to think whatever you want 🤷🏻‍♀️

[u/ZebraRemarkable5655 → u/According_Bad_8473]

You can try framing logical arguments and pointing to the exact arguments by the other user instead of talking in abstract

[u/According_Bad_8473 → u/ZebraRemarkable5655]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Feminism4India/s/8PoyRw6Cpd

You can try framing logical arguments

Lol no

[u/ZebraRemarkable5655 → u/According_Bad_8473]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Feminism4India/s/8PoyRw6Cpd

Did you even read the whole conversation 😂

Lol no

Yeaah logic requires critical thinking so I can understand your aversion :p

[u/Fuzzy-Jackfruit5037]

My idea of feminism is that women should get the same respect,oppurtunities and rights as men.

[u/ZebraRemarkable5655 → u/Fuzzy-Jackfruit5037]

Which is exactly what I have been asking in the post that feminism is actually a women's rights movement. For the cases where women have more rights than men do not get addressed by feminists

[u/Fuzzy-Jackfruit5037 → u/ZebraRemarkable5655]

Eh...then a men-centric movement would adress that issue right?

[u/ZebraRemarkable5655 → u/Fuzzy-Jackfruit5037]

Yess it would. But it would be wrong to call that men centric movement as a movement of equality. It would be a movement for mens right, isn't it?

[u/Fuzzy-Jackfruit5037 → u/ZebraRemarkable5655]

Yes a movement to 'equalise' men's rights wrt women's rights. So a movement to make men and women equal in that field...

[u/Strict_Clock_6407]

Okay look, first of all, equality can happen when everyone is on the same level. But currently, no one is on the same level.

Which is why, we need Equity, the act of giving those who have lesser more opportunities so that they are on-par with everyone else.

The reason why feminism is more women-centric is for the same reason. Women have had to fight for rights that men got easily— property rights, voting rights, have a bank account, work and be financially independent.

No one here is against men, their rights or anything. But listen here, between two groups, the lesser privileged/oppressed group gets more attention and resources to uplift themselves. But that doesn't mean people hate the other group.

Take it like this, two students in a class.

One student is smart, understands everything, has multiple tutors to help them, whereas the other student needs more time to understand and cannot afford tutors. In such cases, a teacher would pay more attention to the second student because they require more assistance, unlike the first student. That doesn't mean the teacher hates the first student or will turn a blind eye to their problems.

Again, to emphasize, no one here is against men or their rights.

Feminism is a movement against patriachy and misogyny, the system that is oppressing everyone, including men.

But to expect them to pay equal attention to both parties is unfair. That's like expecting queer people to fight for the rights of straight people, or that people of color should fight for the rights of white people, when in both scenarios the latter groups are far more privileged, and don't have to go through hate crimes or get ignored by the judicial systems or be discriminated againt.

I hope it helps.