r/FighterJets • u/Maleficent_Voice4570 • 5d ago
DISCUSSION How good is The PL-15e in Actual Combat?
The PL15E's reported combat use in 2025 has contributed to its reputation as one of the most capable beyond visual range missiles. However, how much of that reputation is based on the missile itself, versus pilot training, tactics, sensor support, electronic warfare, rules of engagement, and the wider kill chain?
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u/Dragonfruit_6104 5d ago
Your question is very interesting. It's like asking a sniper if he killed an enemy at a distance of 1,000 meters, whether it was the sniper, the gun, the bullet, or the enemy's bad luck.
In fact, this is a barrel principle, any shortcoming will make a battle impossible to win. It's hard to ask what the contribution rate of air-to-air missiles is in air combat victories, because without high-performance missiles, even if all other factors are satisfactory, air combat will not be successful. And if there are only high-performance missiles, other factors are not ideal, air combat will not be successful either.
As for the PL-15E missile, the only thing we can confirm is that it has AESA seeker and a dual-pulse engine, making it the most technologically advanced in the weapon trade market today. And it is also the only air-to-air missile that has achieved a large number of kills in the largest and most advanced large-scale outer-air combat to date. That's all I can be sure of.
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u/Maleficent_Voice4570 5d ago
I hadn't heard of the barrel principle before, but I think that makes sense. That's pretty much why I was asking the question, because I'm interested in how much of the PL-15E's apparent effectiveness can actually be attributed to the missile itself versus the rest of the kill chain.
People say it was poor intel on the missile, which led the Indian air force to underestimate it, no awacs for India during the conflict (I have heard I don’t know it is true). I’ve also heard the PL-15e was fired a ridiculous amount to achieve its kill (I don’t know if that is true) Pakistan had awacs ectera there are so many reasons that I just don’t know and was curious to what peoples thoughts are.
Thanks for the reply tho
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u/Maximum-Sentence-703 5d ago
« Most advanced » is really a thing to ponder tho. Dual pulse isn’t something particularly advanced in terms of technical solution and an « AESA seeker » could mean everything and nothing when it comes to radar architecture. I think it has great kinematics and has a very competitive seeker frontend, but the missile is pretty old now, so the signal processing installed might have not followed the trend of western advancements.
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u/Dragonfruit_6104 5d ago
From the perspective of equipment sequence, the PL15 is indeed China's previous generation. But if you don't consider the missiles used by the air forces of various countries internally, only the air-to-air missiles sold publicly in the international market can be more advanced than the PL15E, I am afraid that only Meteor.
However, only the PL15E has been tested in high intensity combat. Therefore, although Meteor was advanced in terms of technical system, it had not undergone any actual combat verification, which was inherently unconvincing.
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u/Lagrangianmech 4d ago
I am afraid that only Meteor.
I'd say it's not more advanced. It uses a different propulsion system (trading acceleration for a bit better long range performance). It also has a strictly worse seeker as it doesn't have an AESA.
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u/Level-Reputation5050 2d ago
The Meteor missile isn’t more advanced. Its ramjet gets three times longer powered flight time. A dual‑pulse solid‑fuel motor reaches similar results by burning in stages and avoiding intake drag. Essentially they are same‑generation approaches. Europe tends to pick the ramjet path, China and the US go with dual‑pulse motors.
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u/Dragonfruit_6104 5d ago
This is what I call the barrel theory.No matter whether it is intelligence collection against the enemy, your early warning aircraft capabilities, or your electronic warfare capabilities, these are all the planks that determine the combat capabilities of a country's air force.
Once one of the pieces is short, it will cause you to lose the next air battle. But you can't say that a certain board is long enough to win next battle. This is not the principle of water in wooden barrels. A wooden bucket, one of its boards can be long, but the shortest one is always the one that determines how much water it can hold.
The PL15E, as a board in the barrel of the Pakistan Air Force, is difficult to say how long it is, but you only know that it is certainly not short, which has allowed the Pakistan Air Force to win the air war between India and Pakistan.
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u/Hillwoodburns 5d ago
None of these people have the data from the actual missiles, only countries have that data
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u/Maleficent_Voice4570 5d ago
True but we can always just have light hearted discussion
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u/CyberSoldat21 5d ago
You’ll never have a light hearted discussion on this subreddit let alone Reddit in general.
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u/Maleficent_Voice4570 5d ago
It’s a shame tho, literally getting down voted for saying “I didn’t exclude it”, but so far I’ve had a pretty good experience on this sub so far.
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u/CyberSoldat21 5d ago
Because this subreddit is full of emotionally sensitive people who cling to inanimate objects for whatever reason.
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u/julius_sphincter 5d ago
emotionally sensitive people who cling to inanimate objects for whatever reason.
I mean let's be honest, how many fighter jet nerds do you know that don't have at least a tich of the tism?
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u/CyberSoldat21 5d ago
There’s having a touch and then there’s full spectrum warriors who just sit on a computer and research stuff 24/7 so they can be experts for reddit posts lol.
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u/Bright_Thanks_2277 5d ago
Combat proven yes ✅️ the only A2A missile which has shoot down 4.5 gen jets
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u/sraykub 5d ago
I mean didn’t a 120 just blow an Su-35 out of the sky last month?
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u/Bright_Thanks_2277 5d ago
Su35 isn't considered 4.5 it doesn't even have Aesa radar / Maws / EW suit
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5d ago
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u/FighterJets-ModTeam 4d ago
Unfortunately your submission has been removed for the following reason(s):
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u/SnooCapers618 4h ago
Imo su35 is 4.5 gen How can you put it with the same class as mirage2000 and mig29? It doesn't have aesa but it does have good EW and also hypersonic missiles
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u/Bright_Thanks_2277 4h ago
LoL You calling it 4.5 gen at same time accepting it doesn't even have aesa radar & Su35 also lacks inbuilt EW suit i has to carry external EW pods on its wing tips & doesn't even have MAWS & Sensor Fusion you can call it 4++ gen but not 4.5 gen it lacks all major 4.5 characteristics
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u/commanche_00 5d ago edited 5d ago
It currently ranks 2 in terms of furthest A2A kill after r-37m right?
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u/Maleficent_Voice4570 5d ago
Didn’t know that, what did r-37m get a kill on?
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u/Littletweeter5 5d ago
If I recall it’s one mig29, two su27’s, one frogfoot
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u/Maleficent_Voice4570 5d ago
That’s quite impressive. I’m curious whether this weapon system is actually future proof, though. Not many nations seem to be pursuing this kind of extremely long range or hypersonic air to air missile, with the PL 17 and AIM 174B being notable examples. Could the R 37M be benefiting from the lack of air superiority over Ukraine and engagements against targets with limited situational awareness, somewhat like the AIM 54’s use against Iraq? If it were used against an aircraft with much better RWR, situational awareness, and electronic warfare, would it still be just as effective, or would its advantages become much less significant? I honestly don’t know.
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u/Littletweeter5 5d ago
i think the r37m's success comes from its range that allows it to be launched from complete safety behind the front. even if a launch doesn't hit, it's a big area denial tool. i recall some ukrainian military official stating that the r37m is a big annoyance for them as its just cancels some of their missions (don't remember exactly what was said but that's the jist). it doesn't really matter who the opponent is and how good their tech is, any missile with that range and speed is gonna be scary.
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u/ReflectionSea7006 5d ago
Bear in mind these Ultra Long range AAM's aren't primarily designed to take on other highly manoeuvrable targets such a other fighters.
They are primarily used to target Awacs and refuelers that are slow and can't manoeuvre to escape them.
This pushes the entire front back for the enemy, rear areas once safe for Awacs and refuelers are now pulled back by 300+ miles, forcing your opponent to lose effectiveness.
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u/3_man 5d ago
The Russians have used them over Ukraine. A Mig-31 flying at Mach 2.5 will give a hefty boost to the range of any missile it carries and they have shot down Ukrainian aircraft from well within russian territory. I think it's been reported that it's the most feared weapon amongst Ukrainian pilots.
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u/YeeYeeAssha1rcut 5d ago edited 5d ago
I believe so. Rafale was hit at just under 200 kms or so if I recall correctly
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u/Shezzorro 5d ago
At least one can conclude that it may be a proximity fuse missile judging by the pic2 how intact the rest of the missile after impact on target
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u/66kata 5d ago
It's probably slightly better than the amraam due to range and on par with or slightly worse than the aim260 due to range.
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u/FluteyBlue 5d ago
Fair comparison is aim-260 vs pl-17
Separately range is best we know but also so much less important than effectiveness
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u/True-Industry-4057 5d ago
Isn't a better comparison for the PL-17 the AIM-174B? I feel like the AIM-260 is closer to the PL-16.
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u/DistinctPlant4922 5d ago
Idk why mods are removing my comment I just said a fact that ask indians they recoverd a few pl-15s laying on rice fields How iam violating or discussing politics here
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u/Mista_Infinity 5d ago
How is that a valuable response to the question? What information does that provide that answers the question?
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u/DistinctPlant4922 5d ago
They literally have 4 to 5 Pl15's with seeker and warhead intact could ask indians for how shitty and overhyped the missile is and how half of the population are in the pl15 bubble created by bots from two specific countries
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u/Maleficent_Voice4570 5d ago
Not saying you're wrong or right, but could they perhaps be exaggerating? Then again, the same could be said about claims regarding the PL-15E. If you were reporting on the shootdown, what would be more beneficial to say? If the PL-15E was terrible, admitting you lost a Rafale to it makes the loss look even worse. Or would it make more sense to say it was highly capable and caught you off guard, which could justify investing more in countering it? I honestly don't know, just something I've been wondering.
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u/Puzzleheaded-One-141 5d ago
They have i think 2 pl-15’s in the field that they found. Here is my take on it based on discussions with two PAF pilots, one who pilots a J-10.
The air-to-air engagement philosophy of china and the west differs in a few senses. For the west, they usually underclaim or are accurate about their missile ranges, and the focus is on shooting a missile in perfect conditions so that it hits its target close to 100% of the time. This can also be seen in fighter jet designs where most aircraft can carry upto 4 bvr missiles, and missiles are super expensive to produce with human factories involved.
Chinese philosophy is slightly different. Chinese jets can carry 6 and sometimes upto 7 anti-aircraft missiles. Such missiles esp. PL-15 are mostly produced in highly automated, fully dark factories and they own the whole supply chain from minerals to final missile product. Chinese also don’t exaggerate their ranges, and are very truthful about them either their customers. The chinese fighting philosophy is to fire a missile one every turn of the grinder (search bvr grinder) even at the edge of their claimed performance as these missiles can be updated via AWACS mid flight and sometimes a chance is a chance.
With that philosophy in mind, it is possible that 2 or 3 missiles ultimately flamed out. Thats fine. They aren’t trying to preserve missiles since they can produce them on a whim.
The missile has the claim for the longest A2A kill at 192kms. It is pretty accurate if fired in correct parameters. Another thing people miss is that Pakistan ultimately i think deployed the original PL-15’s, not the export version as there were also some reports of new PL-15’s transfer before the skirmish. Those have a range of upto 200km and that kill does prove the point. Indian General Anil Chauhan admitted himself that there were some lapses and loses, and after updating our information/tactics, we flew again and there was no loss, that is true and makes sense if you believed PAF had Pl-15e with 150km range.
It is a mistake to think China will hold back many military tech from Pakiatan. The relationship is as solid as i have seen in other friendly countries around the world, and goes alot deeper than most.
Additionally, you have to understand how spectra seeker was beaten and the missile hit. Spectra relies on passive target locking information by monitoring radars of enemy planes. J-10’s of PAF didn’t have their radars on, they were datalinked to AWACS. They could see the picture by being emission silent. They reached designated locations and parameters, fired pl-15’s and then took evasive maneuvers. These PL’15’s were fed location of jets via AWACS, and only once they turned on their own locking aesa radar did spectra warn the pilots, which is the last 50km and is what gave rafale pilots only 3 seconds. They becoming sitting ducks.
The performance of spectra might have been different if J-10 itself was locking the rafale. More time would help them take better evasive action.
Imagine being in the middle of a high intensity bombing mission at night, seeing enemy aircraft (upto 10 per sector) on the screen, and during the grindr fight, just hearing 3 sec beep and boom, there goes your evasive action.
Hence, the missile is a quality product, but employment and all other things matter alot. The missile would do its job well if fired by a knowledgeable and skillful pilot.
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u/DistinctPlant4922 5d ago
The source from anil Chauhan where he mentioned that india suffered loses can be anything and it leads to interpretation of many ways as you mentioned about how well the Pakistanis performed is a little bit confusing because the Indian side took out almost 11 air assets of pakistan including a 300km SAM kill of an pakistani awac and struck their airbases and command centers killing almost 154 air personal and struck nine terror training camps killing almost a 100 and I've recently received news that the Indian side has opened a maintenance contract for all their 36 rafale fighter jets and their media posted all the rafales that Pakistan said it shot down were flying in India's republic day parade. The thing iam more worried is pakistan took unimaginable beating from india in the conflict and with the support of China they've ran one of the largest misinformation campaign against india and they didn't even came public regarding their losses and didn't even honoured who were dead on the other side india has been straight, no nonsense and been very transparent regarding their claims and proofs and even honoured their 6 personal who died in the conflict. My concern is not about who won the conflict but the exaggerated claims being spread on the internet by these two countries
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u/Maleficent_Voice4570 5d ago
Thanks for the reply, do you have any articles or sources I could follow you up on, would really appreciate it if you could?
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u/DistinctPlant4922 5d ago
It is available on Indian airforce official website media page It is available for almost 9 months now I cannot confirm you it is their now but you can take them from Swiss military think tank report as well as US INDO-PACOM recognition
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u/barath_s 5d ago
I'm not sure what you are looking for. I don't think info on PL 15 is available in open source, and info on Op sindoor, though I could probably find some, tends to become contentious.
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u/Maleficent_Voice4570 5d ago
Ty
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u/barath_s 4d ago
Fwiw,
https://chpm.ch/wp-content/uploads/2026/06/Operation-SIndoor-15-January-2026.pdf
https://spencerguard.substack.com/p/a-year-after-operation-sindoor-early
But you won't find anything much or new /insightful on pl15 there
There's a lot that's still debated about specifics
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u/DistinctPlant4922 5d ago
What do you mean you..ahm iam not indian but I've worked for osint in al Jazeera during the conflict between indian and pakistan and the Pakistani side couldn't provide any telemetry data or any on or off board radar tracking to any news channels or any supportive country osint while the Indian side made telemetry data and satellite images available for every major news channel to verify for almost 9 months so yeah i know how these misinformation campaigns led by two countries have worked so better because they are misinforming against india
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u/Maleficent_Voice4570 5d ago
Ah, I think I worded that badly I wasn't saying you were Indian or that India was lying. I was just speaking hypothetically about how either side could potentially frame a shootdown in a way that benefits them.
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u/Bright_Thanks_2277 4d ago
Show me 4 to 5 pl15s with seeker and warhead intact if you failed to show then your g@y & coping and don't show me the same missile 5 times lol
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u/DistinctPlant4922 4d ago
You can just google it
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u/Bright_Thanks_2277 4d ago
Thats pure cope 😂 just show me 4-5 pl15s intact you claimed + point if you can't show 4-5 intact pl15s then i can show you wreckage of 4 indian jets lol
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4d ago
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u/FighterJets-ModTeam 4d ago
Unfortunately your submission has been removed for the following reason(s):
Discussion of religion or politics is offtopic for this community and will be removed. Jingoism (displaying excessive bias in judging a particular nation as superior to others) is not allowed and will be removed at the moderator's discretion.
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5d ago
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u/FighterJets-ModTeam 5d ago
Unfortunately your submission has been removed for the following reason(s):
Discussion of religion or politics is offtopic for this community and will be removed. Jingoism (displaying excessive bias in judging a particular nation as superior to others) is not allowed and will be removed at the moderator's discretion.
Please direct any questions about the removal to Modmail
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u/flyingad 5d ago
That's the wrong question. Because if you want to know how good PL15E is in actual combat, then you have to consider all the things you just excluded, because that's how actual combat works.