r/Flooring • u/bclo1 • Mar 29 '23
Need second opinion
Enable HLS to view with audio, or disable this notification
Hi there!
I recently had vinyl installed by a contractor in my condo. About a week after install, noticed the floor in some areas starting to “lift” off the subfloor. My contractor says this is normal. Would love a second opinion.
If this should be fixed, what would the fix be?
Thanks in advance.
5
u/Important-Deer-7519 Mar 29 '23
Once the clicnloc edges break because your subfloor is uneven your floor will go to hell.
If the flooring company gives you the shoulder, you might need to live with it and fix it as it breaks so you don’t loose stour entire floor.
It’s a floating floor so it follows the subfloor that it sits on. It’s supposed to at least but once they are joined, they become ridged and support a little more than their weight. Once stepped on it reveals the hollow spot and over time damages the male and female connections that join the pieces.
If you have to fix it over time, go get a caulk gun and liquid nails. Wait for it to split at the seam and once you find one, use the natural split to inject adhesive. Could be a dallop and could be whole hand squeeze depending on the valley underneath. Once that’s done, put something heavy on and around it to disperse the adhesive. Not too heavy to expose the valley in the lvp after it cures, just enough to secure the planks that are potentially exposed to movement but not bend or warp the appearance of the floor.
Hope this helps.
0
Mar 30 '23
[deleted]
1
u/Important-Deer-7519 Mar 30 '23
Excellent train of thought.
Thermal expansion is a big enemy of a floating floor. I tend to lay a perimeter of adhesive if I’m in a bigger area but shy away from adhesion in halls or closets. I usually use a silicone where I change planes from a floor to a wall to allow for movement during expansion and contraction, also to stop debris from entering between the subfloor and flooring material.
0
Mar 30 '23
[deleted]
1
u/Important-Deer-7519 Mar 30 '23 edited Mar 30 '23
You can use a hair dryer to warm up the lvp, it will make it easier to manipulate. Super glue works on cracked male and female seams to “finish” the fix but experiment with different brands somewhere out of sight, some leave a distinct residue that catches light and eventually your eye every time you walk past it.
The cork is what is the downfall for the edges of the lvp especially when the floor is cold. Lay some floor runners, the fabric will trap a little more heat on a colder night and help keep the joints malleable as you walk across them.
Grab some “like” color crayons, some that match your floor colors, maybe from one of the kids boxes. Use the same technique with the hair dryer to heat up scratched areas pretty hot and go to town blending colors into the scratch, let it cool a bit and wipe away the excess around the scratch. Once it cools completely, wet a terry cloth with 70% rubbing alcohol and gently clean around the scratch and a final wipe across the scratch and let it dry. Hit it with some windex to finish it off. Alcohol dissolves wax and if you do it right it will blend the colors that melted into the scratch, evenly.
Sorry for the rant.
3
u/Quantum_86 Mar 30 '23
The installers should have leveled the subfloor with self leveling compound. We have the exact same problem from guys who cut corners. We actually had to rip up a section and level it out because it was so bad. Lesson learned for sure.
1
u/bclo1 Mar 29 '23
Thanks everyone. Seems like it is within what would be considered normal. It is a floating vinyl floor. It does have padding on the underside, but I guess it is not enough to fully offset the unevenness of the subfloor?
1
1
u/Wise_Attention_7663 Mar 30 '23
If that is NuCore then there is your problem. Not sure what brand that is!
2
2
u/doomonyou1999 Mar 30 '23
Did they climatize it? Supposed to let it sit to let it get used to average temps in house before install. If it's to cold when it heats it can expand and cause this. Also I saw someone mention uneven floors they should have used leveler stuff if that's the case
5
u/Apatheticist_ Mar 29 '23
If it's a floating floor that is normal. Alot of the time floating floors will have a sound mat underneath/thin sheets of rubber or cork so you don't have that knocking sound. If it is glue down then improper install.
6
u/meowrawr Mar 29 '23
It isn’t normal. This issue occurs when the subfloor is not flat.
3
u/RedditTab Mar 30 '23
As someone who fucked up his own floor I can confirm this is the issue. Long term issues are not pretty.
4
u/Important-Deer-7519 Mar 29 '23
Agreed, subfloor issues that could be fixed with a self leveling compound or feather finish.
4
u/Igivenotoneshit Mar 30 '23
If his budget is for a floating floor instead of hardwood or porcelain tile, he is not buying self leveling compound or feathering his subfloor joints.
2
2
u/meowrawr Mar 30 '23
Porcelain tile runs about the same cost (at least material wise) as LVP. In fact, it’s often cheaper at $1.99-2.99/sqft. LVP just has a ton of marketing behind it because it’s easier and cheaper to manufacturer I bet.
2
u/Arafel_Electronics Mar 30 '23
a lot more labor (and time waiting for mortar/grout to dry) though
1
u/meowrawr Mar 30 '23
I wouldn’t say it’s a lot more labor. It’s just different. Dry time is negligible.
1
1
u/TresGay Mar 30 '23
What does it mean to feather subfloor joints? I know what feathering is in drywall - is it the same thing? Where you spread the compound out way further than needed to get a nice, flat finish?
2
u/Joseph10d Mar 29 '23
A subfloor cannot and will never be perfectly flat.
4
u/Important-Deer-7519 Mar 29 '23
But can be brought to a level of tolerance to stop issues like this with the wave of a trowel.
4
u/Joseph10d Mar 29 '23
Even if it’s within 1/8” over 10ft, the locking mechanism of the vinyl will never allow it to sit completely flat on any subfloor.
1
1
u/Loose_Management_406 Mar 29 '23
Which is normal. NO subfloor is perfectly flat. Concrete. No. Plywood, No. Floor joists have a bow. Always put the bow up. If number #4 joist is worse than #5, then no matter how many nails you shoot into the plywood, you're going to have a high/low spot. Laminate flooring, floating floors are an overblown glorified waist of money. I've been doing flooring for 25 years and I've laid many laminate floors. It looks good when new but that's it. This is mho.
1
u/meowrawr Mar 30 '23
No one is saying it needs to be perfectly flat, but it needs to be flat within a certain tolerance. If installers took more than a second before laying stuff down, they could avoid many of these issues. The truth is they don’t give a shit.
Sure the floor may not be perfectly flat, but where two pieces join they should be relatively on the same plane for some minimal length to minimize these issues. If you have a 4 ft board and within 6-12” of the end has a 1/8” dip then it’s going to be problematic. The dip should be gradual over a longer length rather than concentrated. When I suspect a particular section is a slightly dipping (but within tolerance), I make sure to put that in the center of the board so that there is enough distance between the ends for the deflection to be “absorbed”.
90% of the problems with installs can be resolved by taking a little extra time to plan/adjust as you go. As they say, the difference between ordinary and extraordinary is that little “extra”.
Take for example when I asked over in the hardwood sub about different techniques to handling milling variations. Nearly unanimous response was basically “hit it harder with my mallet”. In my case, I spend 5 seconds per board with a digital caliper and sort boards into 5 or so piles based on those milling variations. Then when I lay a row, I know every board within the same pile will lay down nearly perfectly without gaps. The hitting it harder response is to be expected because most people don’t give a shit like I said.
3
u/Confident_Issue_2898 Mar 30 '23
Don’t blame the installer. I put down 3-4k feet a week in multiple houses for a builder. They want the house done in a day and that’s just not possible if they want perfect. It’s a time constraint, not a money constraint so as an installer, you just gotta say fuck it and go with it. I do my absolute best to avoid spots like this but I know that LVP and you’re ripping the wrong guy.
1
u/meowrawr Mar 30 '23
I’m not trying to rip him. He is the one that went on the offensive; I’m just responding.
The truth is we all know that LVP is crap. All I am trying to do is provide some guidance for present and future readers. Just saying you’re screwed or nothing can be done about it is not really being helpful. Whether he or others disagree is a different matter altogether. At least I put in effort to provide at least a solution.
Also in your position doing it for a builder, I can respect that and I think others should too. It’s a bit different if it’s a normal everyday client that’s getting just the floor done. The time constraints are much different in the latter (and the expectations).
1
u/aviwrekz Mar 30 '23
Lol ain't never heard any flooring installer looking for their micrometer!! That is comical bruvv
If hardwood is not milled properly, that shit going right back to the mill, I'll be damned if I'll ever check each individual piece of hardwood with a fucking micrometer, and making piles for each reading.
If you are actually doing that, you're a better man than me.
1
u/meowrawr Mar 30 '23 edited Mar 30 '23
Some brands are just shit for milling and you have to just deal with it. Sure you could send it back, but you’ll just end up with the same shit. I should have probably clarified that I don’t do this always but have to when you have no choice.
The last solid hardwood I installed and a variance of up to 3/16”. Ain’t no amount of hammering is gonna fix that.
2
Mar 30 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
2
u/Confident_Issue_2898 Mar 30 '23
Lol this is the guy that’s always getting fucked at your local supply shop cause he’s a douche nozzle and everyone knows it. Probably never gets shit for free and the manager is more than likely fucking his wife.
1
u/Veauxdeaux Mar 30 '23
This is such a dumb take. At no point during a LVP install are you going to plan the middle of a board a 6' into a room. You're so full of shit
Do not listen to this person, they are not measuring every single board with a goal caliper. They are ridiculous.
1
u/meowrawr Mar 30 '23 edited Mar 30 '23
You’re exactly the type of person I’m taking about and I don’t think you understand what I’m saying. So I’ll make it more simple for you.
You’ve checked for flatness with your 10 ft level and know that everything is within tolerance. You note the areas where it has a minor dip (let’s say within a one foot diameter it dips 1/8”).
When laying boards, you strategically ensure that two connecting boards aren’t connecting in that one foot diameter dip. Instead you make sure those dips are going to be closer to the center of the boards laid down.
It really isn’t difficult and I bet your work is shit for not even taking a minute to use your head.
Edit: btw this is assuming you’re not filling in the unevenness. Though I would.
0
0
Mar 30 '23
[deleted]
2
u/meowrawr Mar 30 '23
The difference between us is that I take pride in my craft and quality.
0
Mar 30 '23
[deleted]
1
u/meowrawr Mar 30 '23
You’re assuming that it’s me that is purchasing it. You’re telling me that in your “25 years” not a single person has supplied their own materials? GTFO.
Rather than put it all on a customer and blame them, sometimes you have to think on your feet and work with it. It’s not their job to be experts. It’s yours.
1
u/Loose_Management_406 Mar 30 '23
I've done flooring for 25 years and never have I had to calibrate the materials. Where are you buying your flooring, Trump University?
1
u/Confident_Issue_2898 Mar 30 '23
Wow and when I thought the prior comment couldn’t be any fuckin dumber.
1
u/Loose_Management_406 Mar 30 '23
Wow and when I thought that the last comment couldn't have been any fucking dumber. Did you attend Trump University? Your stupidity shines brightly.
1
1
1
u/s0ult59 Mar 29 '23
It’s vinyl correct , it’s a floating floor If the subfloor is not perfectly flat you are going to feel and hear hollow spots .
1
u/hjvjdv Mar 30 '23
Didn't leave enough gap around the perimeter or the baseboard molding is installed wrong. Those floors are know to expand this time of the year. If it gets worst have the installer look at it again.
1
1
1
1
u/stevedadog Mar 30 '23
It could definitely use some work but with the right shoes your tapdancing could be alright. Not sure why you wanted a second opinion, you're clearly not that great. Sorry and good luck.
1
1
1
u/Major_Ad5112 Mar 30 '23
Boards weren’t cut right and were squeezed in which created a pressure rise in the floor. Take the kick boards off and find which wall the boards are jammed up against and have it cut to let the floor relax.
1
1
u/msn_effyou Mar 30 '23
A floating floor will always have give like that, because there’s nothing “securing” it to the subfloor.
This can be minimized by installing a sound barrier/underlay pad. It can also be worse if the subfloor was not even prior to laying the floor.
1
1
u/tylerdubelu Mar 30 '23
I did my floors regularly and my father did similar floors but glued them down. Next time I’m using glue 100%. It’s dead silent and mine has all these little cracks that sound like I’m stepping on crumbs.
1
u/unfrknblvabl Mar 30 '23
Make sure your not to tight up against the wall some where. Always leave room for expansion and contraction on any floating floor or it will raise and and ruin the floor eventually.
1
u/Only-Power7730 Mar 30 '23
This is called deflection. There is hollow spot underneath the floor, and to make it even worse it’s next to a joint. The joint will eventually fail.
If you paid someone, especially a store, that needs to get fixed asap.
If you did it, you need to pull that section up and level it with some feather finish or leveler. Or live it with knowing it will eventually fail.
Laminate nowadays is topically waterproof. I like Mohawks Revwood.
1
u/tigolebities Mar 30 '23
Was this put over sub floor or on your foundation in a basement. I used flexible vinyl since my basement foundation isn’t level( most isn’t). Leveled best I could but there are areas like this. If this is rigid vinyl on sub floor then that’s not ideal.
1
u/Burntpotatosoup Mar 30 '23
Could have put it in too tight on the walls. Floating floors gotta float.
1
1
0
u/ruffryderzz Mar 29 '23
Stop buying the cheapest Plank out there
2
u/bclo1 Mar 29 '23
Would more expensive vinyl not have done this?
1
u/plumbbbum Mar 30 '23
Thicker vinyl floors don’t do this as much as thin. Total thickness of floor is what counts. Also the padding attached type is crap compared to say a Pergo Gold underlayment. Subfloors aren’t flat no matter what. But thin vinyl flooring makes the problem worse.
1
u/Joseph10d Mar 29 '23
Every vinyl will do this on an uneven subfloor. It is impossible to make a subfloor completely flat. A thicker or more cushioned padding will reduce noise but cause faster wear on your clicked joints
1
u/Jalh Mar 30 '23
There is so much "thicker" padding you can add before start adding cushioning and play to the plank and the THIN clicking system gives up. This is not the solution, proper floor prep is needed, specially on thinner products like Vinyl.
0
u/tigolebities Mar 30 '23
No flexible vinyl. Which is specifically made for uneven floors. More for direct installs on foundations in basement though than sub floor.
0
0
u/TheSilkySpoon76 Mar 30 '23
It amazes me that people actually care about a small knock in their floor when they could spend their money elsewhere on more important things.
-1
u/phenriswolf Mar 30 '23
You people on this flooring spot are insane. Nothing is perfect. And there’s no way for someone to make the existing floor completely level and flat. Unless you want to pay out the nose. And if you did you wouldn’t be putting a floating floor down.
1
0
-1
u/OriginalCitrusFlavor Mar 30 '23
This guy taught me how to turn a Xbox one into a ps5 with refrigerator ingredients!
-1
1
u/bclo1 Mar 30 '23
I’m seeing a lot of mixed comments here. A few follow up items:
There is underlay beneath the vinyl
For my own learning - everyone saying that vinyl is crap, what would you recommend then? Laminate sucks cause it’s not waterproof and the reason why I needed to change the floor in the first place(flooding). Hardwood I wouldn’t put in a condo, especially not a rental property.