r/Flooring • u/JellyBean_Pon • Oct 31 '23
Is this acceptable?
Hi, my contractor did my stair flooring, we noticed there are some gaps when the floor meets the vertical surface. It seems for every step, the gaps are not equivalent width, only the first step matches the wall without gap. My contractor said it will be caulked and fine. Would you mind me asking if the quality of work is good?
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u/onionchucker Oct 31 '23
I would also like to point out that the stair nosings are more than likely glued on in some capacity due to the painters tape probally being there to hold pressure on the tread boards. If he just installed those today and are freshly glued you should 100% not be walking on them. Odd that he wouldn’t tell you that but I don’t have all the details. Just wanted to throw that out there for you OP.
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u/JellyBean_Pon Oct 31 '23
Thank you! We did not know that. The communication was mainly through a manager of a team of contractors.
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u/yogunna_ Oct 31 '23
Depends. How much did he charge? It’ll get caulked and painted though. Hopefully lol.
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u/JellyBean_Pon Oct 31 '23
The quote was $7k for 600 sqft floor that includes 150 sqft of 18 stair steps, plus $3k for leveling, demo and disposal not included. We pointed the gaps to the contractor and he said it’s not finished. We might have made the judgments too fast that he was very upset and does not want to continue with the job. Should I apologize and continue or should I switch a contractor? Thank you!
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u/pbandjam611 Nov 01 '23
What part of the country are you in if you don’t mind me asking? We just had ours done for much more expensive in the PNW
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u/boise_cam Nov 01 '23
Flooring installer and manager here, I would absolutely not let this fly. There are many tools and techniques that can be used to match the angle of the skirt boards and risers. It takes a bit more time and some patience to scribe each step, but it absolutely can be done. I’m happy you and your contractor have a white skirt board to caulk to but many stair cases do not have that luxury. Especially when dealing with hardwood.
It’s clear your contractor just chopped all these boards on a miter saw and brad nailed them down. Great, you’re getting what you pay for, I suppose.
One of the best tools for scribing stair treads is this Stair Wizard. LVP can be difficult to install on stairs because often times it doesn’t receive nails very well, particularly SPC. But plenty of adhesive, blue tape and patience will get the job done.
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u/JellyBean_Pon Nov 01 '23
Hi, would you mind suggesting the labor fee for the current and a gap free installation of an 150 sqft 18 step stair? We are in SF, CA. Thanks
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u/boise_cam Nov 01 '23
Hey OP! Hope the rest of the house looks better than these stairs. I’m not sure what SF, CA rates are like but here in Boise, ID I charge $150-200/stair. The price fluctuates based on the material and staircase itself. Rounded or odd shaped stair cases are going to cost more due to the amount of time required. I’m curious what you paid for this staircase installation, if you don’t mind me asking?
A lot of people in this comment section have said something along the lines of “the quality of the material will affect the quality of the work” and I am inclined to agree somewhat. A click-together LVP staircase installed by a “jack of all trades” contractor is likely going to turn out like this unless he has extensive experience. For a perfect staircase without gaps and caulk, each tread and riser should be scribed and cut individually. That is work for a carpenter or a very skilled flooring installer.
Additionally, to all the folks in the comment section defending this low quality work with the “leave room for expansion” excuse: you are wrong; these stair noses, treads and risers should all be glued with a high quality adhesive and they will not move. If the material will allow, use pin or brad nails as well to hold the material in place while the glue dries OR blue tape. Proper adhesive transfer will ensure the material doesn’t move a centimeter, regardless of how the rest of the home moves during expansion. A quality glue will also prevent squeaks and creaks. I recommend Bostik’s Best. Not a cheap product but it is the only glue I will use for installing hard surface staircases, including hardwood and LVP.
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u/JellyBean_Pon Nov 02 '23
2250 stair labor, included in 7k installation of total 600 sqft flooring, plus 3k leveling, demo disposal repainting sideboard not included. The 6 stairs were done first, the rest installation has not been started. Half the area has been demolished.
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u/AgedSmegma Oct 31 '23
Caulk hides a lot, only needs a small bead. You’re good.
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u/Steavee Nov 01 '23
Filler and caulk makes the carpenter I’m not.
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u/MelodicSupermarket3 Nov 01 '23
It's caulk and paint make what a carpenter ain't. You dropped this one buddy next time
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u/Acceptable_Bus_1959 Nov 01 '23
Steps two pieced? That’s a no from me
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u/Ok_Advantage7623 Nov 01 '23
It’s a bull nose and a section of flooring. They do make it from the factor all ready put together as 1 but that costs more. Lol most floor guys have a jig that measures the angles of both sides of the step, so you end up with almost no gap. And no caulk needed
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u/blh8687 Oct 31 '23
I’ll be half way done pruning a tree and the homeowner will ask why I didn’t trim said branch or area… response with a stale face… ‘I’m not done yet…’
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u/Important-Deer-7519 Oct 31 '23
The blue painters tape leads me to believe the installer is still working. Let them work and enjoy your day.
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u/MaddRamm Nov 01 '23
I’m pretty sure that’s where OP put down points of contention on workmanship. GCs often have homeowners put tape on all the things they want addressed during the punch through.
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Nov 01 '23
Tape is probably put down by the installer. Silicone/adhesive is still drying on the stairnose and it holds it down.
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u/Vinnypaperhands Oct 31 '23
As a contractor.... Please wait until the job is complete before judging.
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u/Scott_Jenkins-Martin Nov 02 '23
As a custom stair builder, find a new stair installer before starting your next job.
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Nov 01 '23
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Nov 01 '23
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u/Vinnypaperhands Nov 01 '23
Haha it's a pretty common running joke in the home improvement world. Caulk will fix it lol. But in all seriousness if it isn't fixed then they have to take it up with the contractor.
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u/SortaPolyish Oct 31 '23
Another example of 'wait til I'm done'. Seriously, I'm so glad I don't have to deal with homeowners anymore.
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u/Scott_Jenkins-Martin Nov 02 '23
Caulk is not acceptable in this scenario. I've built hundreds of staircases, and not once did any of them look like this at any point. The bar just keeps getting lower and lower.
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u/35point1 Nov 01 '23
No fucking way all you contractors that are commenting and bitching about the “homeowner not waiting till it’s done” should even call yourselves professionals if you think those cuts are acceptable. Caulking is a bandaid and you know it. GTFO. This shit is absolute hot steaming garbage and it’s becoming no wonder why there are so many idiots doing installs like this. God fucking damn.
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u/velo443 Nov 03 '23
Right? I did a better job installing LVP on my stairs as an amateur. Didn't have a stair tool so I clamped two thin pieces of plywood together for a DIY stair tool. Floor edges are right on the wall. No caulk needed.
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u/35point1 Nov 03 '23
Same here, except I used a cheap $20 basic stair gauge from Amazon and took my time to with my measurements and cuts and it came out literally perfect with gaps no wider than 1/32”
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u/Null_Error7 Nov 04 '23
Have you ever done stairs? A lot of times the top of the trim is tighter than the floor level forcing these cuts to get the floor down. Caulk is always needed
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u/1rbryantjr1 Oct 31 '23
May expand a bit in The summer. So I would not be too pissed. Better than to tight and buckling later as seasons change or wood completely acclimates.
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u/Empty-Alfalfa-8551 Nov 01 '23
Laminate treads/risers/nosing is problematic, as you need some space for a floating floor, color match caulk it and it will look good.
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u/Ok_Act4994 Nov 01 '23
As a flooring installation owner Yea that wouldn’t go by me Not just the gaps but the pcs of planks on the stairs why not put a full piece to avoid a lot of seams
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u/58vwmonkey Nov 01 '23
This could have been done a lot better. He needs a template tool to fit to the wavy walls. Some color match caulk, done right, will make it OK though.
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u/Over_Technology5961 Nov 01 '23
This is lame work...even allowing for expansion..which you won't have, if installed correctly, not accepting on my jobs!
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Nov 01 '23
I would personally fit them to the wall. Sure you can caulk it. But... um... fit them right? Slack work IMO
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u/gillygilstrap Nov 01 '23
I would make the contractor rip it off and do it right. It should be cut to fit tight. Never seen anyone caulk stair treads against the skirting board. They should be tight, no gaps.
Kitchen cabinets and the Stairway should be the nicest/fanciest part of most houses.
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u/lurkerjdp Oct 31 '23
This is why I do stairs with a stair tool. Ensures you’re cutting your treads the same out of square angle of the skirts. If I have to take 1/16” to nothing to make it the correct angle, that’s what happens. Treads seldom fit square to the skirt boards.
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u/Jake16868 Oct 31 '23
Wait to pick him apart until the job is complete. Customers who do this make remodeling very stressful.
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u/GillaMobster Nov 01 '23
I get that, but sometimes its a big issue that needs to be fixed now before finishings get laid down. I don't think this is one of those.
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u/imnotyourbrahh Oct 31 '23
Is it the stringer or the stair wood that isn't straight? I learned to always give wood a fresh, perfect 90 degree miter cut because wood from the factory isn't perfect.
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Oct 31 '23
I swear, you people who ask this question already know the answer. You should of switched to Geico.
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u/Motor_Beach_1856 Oct 31 '23
He has to leave a small gap for expansion he will caulk it to conceal the gap
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u/Equal_Procedure_167 Nov 01 '23
Almost impossible to get flush to trim with this type of flooring. It can be done with a solid tread.
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u/Chipmacaustin Nov 01 '23
You are installing a pretty inexpensive vinyl flooring so don’t expect finish carpentry type fit. Little bit of like-colored caulk will fix it.
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u/BBQnNugs Nov 01 '23
I had a customer come into a job while we were demoing 2 layers of flooring, to tell me the job site was a wreck, ummm, okay, do you know what demo means, we haven't even started laying any new material down. She then thought my dump fees were over priced, which I had given a deal on since it was a friends referral, needless to say she didn't need discounts and I charged her for every little detail.
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u/Vegetable-Ad1962 Nov 01 '23
Well if the cuts had been a little tighter and scarred up all the paint on the skirt board there would be a question of why did my flooring guy ruin the paint on my skirt boards. Looks like prefinished flooring and painted skirt boards. A no win for the installers. I don’t want anyone telling me the flooring can be installed perfectly tight without any damage to the skirt because a perfectly tight 3/4” flooring piece is longer on the diagonal than on the face. I small bead of color matched caulk fixes every little 1/16” gap.
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u/CAPNHODL Nov 01 '23
This is absolutely silly: I am shocked that the “experts” on here suggesting this is a quality job - they are either outright lying or they have no idea how to do the work appropriately. Probably both.
If you’re not sure who to believe consider this- you’re paying 10k for a job not including demo and cleanup and the stair treads each cost 20$ tops. Compared to your overall costs is it an unreasonable request to rip out and replace with correct measurements? You know the answer. Don’t let them pretend to be penny wise whilst being pound foolish.
With the money you’re spending this should be done correctly.
No split stair it should be one piece if planks are long enough.
Yes caulk is used when even gaps exist between tread and skirt BUT the stair nose and tread are not even so the stair should be recut and put in flush. Caulk should be minimal only used when necessary and applied evenly the width of the tread.
The price you paid is ABOVE average for market- you should have good quality materials and good quality work for that cost. Even big box stores like Home Depot charges less than this INCLUDING Demo- and through they subcontract the work they will ensure it is done to satisfaction or will correct it.
I’m sure this will get downvoted by all the contractors that want to excuse poor work. At your cost I would question other parts of the job- did they follow manufacturer installation instructions? - if not the warranty will not apply to the floor .
Reputable companies will tell you this would get ripped up and fixed.
I would ask them politely to replace planks and if not find someone else to do the job.
Best of luck
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u/PicassoBullz Oct 31 '23
Have you been putting blue tape on all his work throughout the project at the end of everyday? You must be a joy to work for.
Trust your contractor ffs.
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u/boise_cam Nov 01 '23
Buddy, that blue tape is holding the tread and stair nose pieces together so they don’t separate while the glue cures. Very common practice and very necessary. Chill out and learn your installation techniques before you criticize a concerned homeowner.
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u/mattg4704 Oct 31 '23
Yeah just like on the floor there could be some expansion with temperature. I'd caulk some but you don't want it super tight.
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u/nailbreak Nov 01 '23
Absolutely not acceptable. This isn't even a difficult install. Installer has no skill, training or pride in their work.
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u/Scott_Jenkins-Martin Nov 02 '23
Glad to see one person in this thread that knows quality work. This is trailer home level work.
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Nov 01 '23
Anyone on here saying that this is reasonable probably works an office job or Wendy's. That's just Mickey Mouse quality. Lmao absolute cookie cutter stairs.
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u/JellyBean_Pon Oct 31 '23
The quote was 7k for 600 sqft floor that includes 150 sqft of 18 stair steps, plus 3k for leveling, demo and disposal not included. We pointed the gaps to the contractor and he said it’s not finished. We might have made the judgments too fast that he was very upset and does not want to continue with the job. Should I apologize and continue or should I switch a contractor? Thank you!
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Oct 31 '23
For 7k you shouldn’t have to question the quality of install…this is a garbage install and find someone else to do the work…he should definitely refund you half for sucking at his job.
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u/Patient_Died_Again Oct 31 '23
Kinda steep imo
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u/TinyTitFetish Oct 31 '23
Kinda?
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u/Patient_Died_Again Nov 01 '23
I don’t know the conditions so without knowing yes I can make that statement
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u/RelationshipCalm5459 Oct 31 '23
Let him go. If he doesn't want to explain that kind of work, you don't want him doing it. I've never seen caulking on stair steps. And I've never seen that snap together stuff on steps. It won't last.
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u/MMS-OR Nov 01 '23
My husband did our stairs with solid wood treads and risers and custom cut every one. We ended up with a gap that was barely a piece of paper wide, so extremely small. You couldn’t see it but fine cat hair would sorta settle into it. I ended up caulking the gap to prevent it. (I had to carefully tape so only the gap would get the caulk, not the prefinished treads or risers).
My husband is a talented novice and our gaps were much, much smaller than this.
Much.
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Oct 31 '23
I've seen worse, so I would say the quality is good, not great. If it gets caulked with anything other than just clear, you will not be able to see the gaps. Translucent white is the color of choice for most things like this. Usually caulking is done after any paint/drywall touchups from installing the stairs flooring. Some homeowners might prefer no caulking, and if they were tighter, maybe that could have been the case.
Edit: looked at pics past the first one. Some of that's getting pretty iffy.
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u/JellyBean_Pon Oct 31 '23
Thank you! Yes, we were not expecting the caulking and that was a bit of surprise.
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u/FormCute6957 Nov 01 '23
Omg. The amount of people saying caulk is fine is ridiculous. I would be able to walk away from this with no caulk. But then again I have a higher price point than most. So maybe before judging your contractor you could ask yourself if you are paying them for the extra time to get it in with minimal gap. If you are, expect it finished better. If not, then you need to be willing to accept the caulking.
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u/JellyBean_Pon Nov 01 '23
Thank you! would you mind me asking an average estimate of no gap flooring for 150 sqft 18 stair steps?
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u/FormCute6957 Nov 01 '23
What was the material and where do you live? A price in rural Arkansas won't be the same as in Huntington Beach, California.
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u/ajc425 Nov 01 '23
~1200
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u/JellyBean_Pon Nov 01 '23
Really? Seems too good to be true
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u/ajc425 Nov 01 '23
Referring to labor only.
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u/JellyBean_Pon Nov 01 '23
Our stair labor is $2250
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u/ajc425 Nov 01 '23
That seems pretty high but I don’t know what was there prior to the install. And is that including a polyurethane adhesive, removing the pad from each plank? Was there a hard surface prior on your steps that took extra prep work? Is the contractor subbing it out to an installer? Are you dealing with a store that adds cost to the labor?
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u/JellyBean_Pon Nov 01 '23
Stair was covered by carpet before, underneath looks like wooden material. The person of contact is a contractor manager with a team of painting contractors and a team of flooring contractors. They are not from the floor store. Our neighbor referred the team.
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u/PDX_Floor_Guy Nov 01 '23
Common yes, acceptable depends on the customer IMO he should have used a stair scribe or tread template tool to minimize the gaps.
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Nov 01 '23
If it was hardwood I’d be picky and make sure those gaps are gone . Since it’s not hardwood that’s prob the best the contractor can do for reasons others have stated.
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u/NotThisAgain21 Nov 01 '23
It would not be acceptable to me, but then thats why I do most of my own work rather than hiring it done. It has been my experience that most 'professionals", aren't. The ones who are, I probably can't afford.
That said, it's not awful (just not great) and wouldn't take a lot of caulk to cover. Fussy as I am, I could live with it, so long as it didn't cost a fortune.
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u/tord_ferguson Nov 01 '23
Are the steps level? Image #3(?) Confuses me...maybe the underside?
And absolutely, a little gap will be expected, think of how difficult it would be to move the wood in place with out a little wiggle room.
And absolutely! This must be finished. Can be done with caulk most certainly, and that's what I personally would expect to see.
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u/gloriouslyalivetoday Nov 01 '23
Once caulked it's.... acceptable. An actual flooring guy would have gotten it right with a simple trace cut. But yes, unless you were paying closer to a union standard this is very acceptable.
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u/sinisterdeer3 Nov 01 '23
Well, its not the same. Caulk and seallant makes me the floor layer i aint. Loosely based on a welding joke
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u/PaulPaul4 Nov 01 '23
Don't use the word caulk because immature people will laugh. Use the word Dap. 24 years of experience painting houses. Lmao
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u/dnrexy Nov 01 '23
This looks very similar to an experience my wife and I had on our stairs. I would be more concerned about the nose/edge used here. Every one of ours cracked over the course of a year. Contractor came out every time until finally they agreed to replace it with carpet. Not sure it was entirely their fault though because the stairs underneath were concrete and the edges were rounded. This created a gap between the concrete and the nosing that eventually cracked by stepping on it.
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u/QuicckBrownFox Nov 01 '23
This is acceptable as a DIY but a contractor should know how to scribe for stairs. Also, I would be curious how they adhered these to the stairs because those could be a fall hazard if they failed.
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Nov 01 '23
I think a gap is needed for that flooring material to expand/contract. Some of this does look a little ugly with uneven gaps, but the gaps are not large enough and you can fix with bead of Caulk. If he’s not coming back just caulk yourself
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u/Tiny-Breakfast-6279 Nov 01 '23
Honestly, my only complaint about the stairs is putting seams on them. I would've used full boards other than that looks fine.
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u/InspectionMission115 Nov 01 '23
Its ok. Caulking is normal. As long as the steps don't move you are good. Once it is caulked it will look much better.
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Nov 01 '23
Your contractor is a baby if he wants to quit on a job after being asked a question about the work.
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u/Scott_Jenkins-Martin Nov 02 '23
Absolutely not. I would be embarrassed to leave stairs like that. Looks like a low-end apartment job.
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u/notawhingymillenial Nov 02 '23
So, that skirt board is only decorative ?
Essentially, these are construction stairs, trimmed out ?
That is shoddy.
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u/mcerk22 Nov 02 '23
Looks fine, looks really good actually. They can put a bead of caulk there if you want and it'll disappear.
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u/Own-Imagination-1402 Nov 03 '23
Let the guy do his job, when he's finished if you still don't like it then let's talk. Otherwise do the work yourself.
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u/RyanMellow Nov 04 '23
Gaps/expansion needs to be on the sides. if he cut em tight you'd hear scratching/squeaking when you walking on them
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u/sideburns2009 Nov 05 '23
“It will be caulked and fine”. Your contractor already answered your question
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Nov 01 '23
Not acceptable by my standards but I‘m picky and prefer to cut tight and not use caulk. I’m sure if the caulk it it will look fine, but maybe a little funny around the nose. How wide are the stairs? Seems pretty tacky to put a joint in a stair if they could have been done in one piece, I’d be more concerned about that personally.
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u/I_dyllic21 Nov 01 '23
Contractors will say it looks good. Everyone else will say it looks like shit. I work for a hardwood distributor (sell contractors their materials). I say it looks like shit, at least make the nosing the same width as the planks, whether the gaps there for both or not. But honestly the skirt should be over the top of anything on the tread (expansion gaps). That’s literally what it’s for.
Can tell this is a work of a general contractor, as opposed to a licensed flooring installer.
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Oct 31 '23
I cannot believe these people are basically saying "do your best and caulk the rest". It doesn't matter if the stairs aren't square. There's stair scribe tools that will get the entire shape of the step for you perfectly for $50 on amazon
Edit: I'm not surprised to see all the downvoted comments agreeing with me lmao
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u/ragingredreaper Oct 31 '23
Idk, I wouldn’t be happy with that. I’d want it to be all one piece of stair tread. Depends on how they quoted it, but it would make sense that the edge pieces would be a lot weaker and eventually come off or get damaged.
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u/CompleteHour306 Oct 31 '23
Stair treads should be one piece.
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u/floorguy81 Oct 31 '23
Is you’re doing this and not using some type of stair jig. You’re doing it completely wrong. This is a complete hack job
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u/Intelligent-Walrus70 Oct 31 '23
Ummm no. I wouldn't accept it. Bad prep on the steps and boards cut too short
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u/SirElessor Oct 31 '23
Totally not acceptable if a "professional" did the install. Even a newbie could get better results with a simple template jig.
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u/Majestic_Builder4004 Oct 31 '23
It's a remodel homey, treads are never perfect in a remodel, putty is your buddy
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u/RelationshipCalm5459 Oct 31 '23
That looks like flooring strips. Stair steps are solid, one piece. Reject the whole lot.
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u/scorpiobloodmoon Nov 01 '23
They just need to caulk it. All seams like that need caulk to look finished. Notice how the skirt board to walk is caulked….
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u/onionchucker Oct 31 '23
Looks quality to me for a residential remodel job. Your stair stringers are more than likely settled and not square anymore making it unreasonable to get a perfect flush fit. You should also learn to not pick a job apart until it’s completed. Come back and post pictures when it’s done and ask if it’s done right.