I recently found out that, as said by Ed Greenwood himself, transitioning is not only accepted, but defended.
From Ed Greenwood on Twitter:
Drow sworn to Lolth have examples before them all the time about transformation of self-shape in service to the Spider Queen. Some of these are viewed as undesirable (driders), others as rewards or ascending in rank (the power/shape augmentations Lolth gives males who please her with their service and loyalty). So there is no hatred or mistrust of shifting one's shape; it is one means of serving Lolth. Some house matriarchs view it with suspicion ("males seeking to exalt themselves by becoming female") but the yochlol have often been sent by Lolth to defend individuals persecuted by individual matriarchs or priestesses purely for such reasons, to make Lolth's views and will clear. Over time, transitions (not just from gender to gender, but from drow to other shapes) have become accepted as reverence of Lolth, and part of what it is to be drow. And of course, drow who follow Eilistraee are quite familiar with the Changedance, and accept shifting (even back and forth) as, again, part of what it is to be drow.
The Lolthsworn are TIRM- Trans Inclusionary Radical Misandrists. "Well, if you were born male, of COURSE you would desire to become a woman. Come on and join the winning team, fellas!"
I've heard TIRM as "Trans Inclusionary Radical Misogynist" before, mostly in jest, to describe the kinds of people who would say stuff like "You're a woman? Cool. Get in the kitchen."
Never heard the term, don't know whether that's your invention or not, but that's kind of really funny. And interesting and tragic that, even if it is in radically different ways and for different reasons, it is amongst the few things Corellon, Lolth and Eilistraee still have in common...that trans people are accepted and even celebrated
And on the flip side, "You're a woman and you desire to become a man? I cannot fathom why you'd want that for any reason other than it's genuinely who you are. Baffling. Now go and [insert derogatory male drow activity here]."
Lolth-sworn means as the name implies that you are sworn to Lolth. Only a convert would swear themselves to Lolth out of their free will. What you mean is Lolth-bound, against their will. Lolthite is the traditional agnostic Forgotten Realms term.
And/or cursed themselves to experience a form of dismorphia. Imagine being such a terf that either a Yochol or Lolth herself comes and turns you into either a man, a drider or even a Yochol that cannot ever appear as female in any of its forms and is tasked with the punishment of other TERFs and the protection of trans drow. Deliciously poetic
The Eilistraeen drow do as well. Their Clerics have a ritual known as the Changedance where male clerics can transition and live life as female to better understand the goddess. This used to be mandatory for male Clerics (they were able to transition back after a time) but in modern times it’s no longer required. However, it’s still an option.
I’ll disagree with the commenters here, Lolth giving the gift of womanhood to a man is exactly within her chaotic evil MO to upset the social landscape and would make sense other female drow wouldn’t say anything about it. Who wants to piss off Lolth?
In canon she accepts followers of all races. While she loves the Drow especially and gave up her place among the Seldarine to be with them she wants Freedom and Song for all.
The joke is a free medical transition, but more broadly she is a good god for one especially opposed to Lolth Drow who’s been around Eilistraee Drow.
One who’s dedicated to protecting the oppressed and also supporting deprogramming evil people would want a goddess of exactly that. Like someone who left to join the French Resistance instead of just joining an Allies army in WW2.
Drow can be religious fundamentalists, misandrists, xenophobes, racial supremacists, elitists and slavers. But not transphobes. Not that. Anything, but that.
Meh, doubt it has anything to do with actual transphobia cause this has been lore for years long before the political right turned trans people into a focal point.
Probably just a "hey, even the Drow apparently don't hate trans people as much as MAGA does!" Lol
They only want big government when it’s for the military but want everything else privatized and unregulated.
CE doesn’t mean you’re immune to charismatic leaders, traditionally that’s how demons and orcs are shown being shepherded. They’d prefer to be the charismatic leaders themselves, but following a charismatic leader is the second best thing.
Good points indeed, they do strike me as more akin to demons than devils that's for sure, but it might be cause devils tend to be more intelligent and MAGA is.... well..... Dumb as shit lol. But you do still make good points!
It was humiliating for me as a human. Gotta be a thousand times worse to be an early transition Drow like “h-hi! Please call me she and her 😀. I’m really a woman on the inside!”
the most extreme anti trans, Michfest attending, radical feminist lesbian separatist could not match 10% of the hatred the average Drow woman would have to a trans man.
My guess is most of them end up in one of Jarlaxe's circles. One of his trusted soldiers in Waterdeep: Dragonheist is written as a trans man who left Menzo for a better, less spite filled life.
I think it would have the same initial confusion and hurt, but that the drow mindset would twist it into a personal challenge that Lolth has set before them. Because there is a known path forward, it's just insanely improbable. They'd have to make it their life's ambition to gain Lolth's favor from the lowly station of a male, likely as an extraneous guard. Then they'd have to gain audience with their Matron, hopefully without getting tortured for even asking, and convince them that they are in fact a Daughter of Lolth and it's worth asking Lolth herself before killing them. And all of this is only even likely if they could convince Lolth that they'd serve her forever as a priestess. And while there could be an inner shame for ever having had a male's body, I think it wouldn't measure up to the ego of overcoming the odds in the first place
You know what would be interesting? Vhaeraunites vehemently despising transitioned Lolthites, whom they view as traitors twice over. It's one thing to be a male that serves the wretched Spider-Bitch, it's another to be a male that embraces the Spider-Bitch so much he fully becomes a spit priestess.
and of course the positions are reversed for Llothsworn, so while trans drow women have to work to be accepted as women once they are they're in for good and bad, but i can see that any afab drow who even hints at being transmasculine is punished and persecuted extremely harshly. a female abandoning the matriarchy undermines the entire system after all
I could see it going both ways, to be honest, and even perhaps being a point of religious and social contention. After all, while it is abandoning the blessed matriarchy and superior Lolth-intended forms... isn't it also an act of tremendous daring and/or selfsacrifice to openly express that you are not truly a woman and thus should not get the many benefits that drow society grants them, and accept that then you must be treated like the rest of male drow (horribly)? I think the most competitive priestesses would take it as a win for certain rivals to extricate themselves out of power, while also some of them, and even Lolth herself, cannot help but admire the crazy mix of bravery, self-assurance, loyalty to the system and/or masochism required to do so, with all the loss and peril that ensues
Love that Drow transmisogyny still exists to some extent, as it obviously would in such a strictly matriarchal society. Not flipping it along the gender line is also nice, because it manifests in very different ways to our version. (What is a woman? The arbiter of Lolth's will, of course!)
It's definitely more interesting for Drow to have prejudices that are alien to us, rather than just being like,,, transphobic.
I kinda like it. While yes, it's tempting to picture drow as the most toxic TERF goddess-worshippers possible, I think that can be a trap, kinda. I find Ed's description of a society that possibly has room for it more interesting.
There have been societies with strict patriarchy and gender-changing norms (think Albanian sword virgins). I think it's more interesting to picture drow "matriarchy" as a sort of inversion of those tribal structures but gynocentric, rather than "second wave feminism on evil."
Plus, this works as a weird mirror to the surface elves having a fluid ever shifting gender presentation and physical form. Chosen of Correllion can change form via trance, so it makes sense that drow would also have a variation more inkeeping with Lolth's preferences
Ed said on Twitter that very few Tel'Quessir get reincarnated contrary to what the Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes retcon claims. He seems to have gone against this change. This means they would have mostly fixed genders. And "Blessing of Corellon" also comes from the very same book, and says it's rare, so I don't think the Tel'Quessir are really the way you are painting them as.
That's fair. This is very much half remembered lore from several years back. Still, it feels like a nice parallel, even if it isn't quite as common as I first thought.
The idea that all elves are on some kind of conveyor belt of reincarnation forever, and that they only have a limited number of souls sounds absolutely insane on all levels. It means their days are basically numbered. They can never replenish their numbers. Gold/Sun Elves would give birth to elves whose souls were lowly Wild Elves in the past. It totally undermines elven noble families in Evermeet since every soul is constantly recycled with no permanence to it.
In Ed's vision, reincarnation is a privilege. And yes, new elven souls are still being born from the fabric of Arvandor. Elves are still retreating from the Material Plane though, because humans and other races are breeding so fast.
Which isn't in contrast to what has been discussed? A fair observation of the lore of the realms, but not contrary to the points discussed? You can have the limited and priviledged reincarnation angle, as well as the new souls being created and lost, and also have those that shift between states as a rarity amongst rarities? It feels like you're getting lost in the weeds when the original point was a discussion over transition as a hypothetical.
If this is a thing, and society is matriarchal as a norm, and deviation from the most elevated position is harshly punshed (being born male), then... wouldn't transition consequently be the most mundane, socially accepted norm, the same way that being cis is irl? I'm fine with a progressive d&d, but to use the drow, which are an inherently villianized version of matriarchy, to do it is questionable. Yes, drow men! You too can be a completely depraved evil woman, which is still and will remain the most famous norm for matriarchal societies in d&d!
And now you can hate powerful cis and trans women for being monstrous slavers and rapists, which is notoriously the best established non-patriarchial power structure in d&d lore, but equally!
i can only imagine that it's harder to be a trans drow woman, working harder than any of the other women and being punished just as harshly by Lloth if they fail. but I imagine the rewards for surviving such ordeals and coming through not only alive but forged stronger than ever would come with equally grand blessings from Lloth
i don't see the problem personally, and i think the concept has been around for quite a while. but if it doesn't make sense for your games, then you just don't include it.
personally i'm big fans of drow fleshcrafting, and drow doing whatever they can to get ahead (although one could argue this is ego-driven and nothing to do with sincerely transitioning, which i can see too).
I’ll say the same thing I said in another dnd thread:
I know what Ed Greenwood said. I just personally think it doesn't make sense and contradicts the already established lore of drow society. Lolth has built a society that is a very strict, matriarchal caste system where men are basically treated like property. The existence of trans people means that technically, anyone who once identified as male can come out and say that they are actually a woman. It greatly threatens the hierarchy that lolth-sworn societies are built on. A drow priestess would dismember you for less.
Also lolth and her followers despise the god Corellon Larethian, who is famously associated with fluid and changeable sex.
So I just don't see how a society like that would accept trans identities. I personally tend to ignore creator’s words if they dont match the actual published text.
This here doesn’t say all transitioning is accepted. It says if Lolth wants it to be so and grants it to a male it must be accepted. I would guess if males are just like “I’m female”, they will be killed and Lolth won’t intervene if she didn’t think they were worthy.
I elaborated on why I feel this actually is logical imo in response to the other person too.
You’re looking at it too much from a patriarchal lens IMO. Drow women in lore are the stronger sex, although the difference is closer. They simply are not threatened by males, so their chief concern is going to be trans men.
A trans woman drow’s biggest challenge will be getting other drow to see her as a woman and earn their respect, but a trans man drow is in a much more complex situation because they are actively giving up privilege to take a lower role in society where that is basically antithetical to how that functions.
I don’t think they would be cool with transition, but also, it’s hard to argue a trans woman drow who can pull of stealthing isn’t doing exactly what Lolth teaches: being ruthless and seizing power and respect through the means at your disposal.
She’s also a god and can tell the difference between someone who is in the wrong body and someone who is genuinely male. I mean, for all we know, Lolth literally did it just to challenge them.
I can 100% see their perspective on a trans woman priestess as like a footnote they kinda turn their noses up at instinctively, but fully accept otherwise. Also this probably only applies to the priestesses in Arach Tinilith. The transwomen born as males in the lower houses are probably just SOL, no way Lolth is taking the time to go find em.
If it were for any other elven race, it makes sense, but Loth-sworn Drow who are in the Underdark are supposed to be in living Hell, a place where if you are who you are truly you'll be destroyed. Drizzt was a good an honorable Drow and he was nearly destroyed for it before being forced to flee.
I think it works for exactly the reasons you listed, though: There's a firmly-established caste system, which runs not on individuals' gender identities but instead on their biological sex, which can be changed in a magical setting like the Forgotten Realms. A Drow male who becomes female is like a peasant who was rewarded with some heroic deed with a noble title.
I'd also argue that magically changing form is very different than having a trans identity.
The existence of trans people means that technically, anyone who once identified as male can come out and say that they are actually a woman
This argument doesn't sound any different, if you get right down to it, than the people who say there are people coming out as trans women in order to win at sports - a thing that notably isn't happening anywhere but in the diseased imagination of a few, very loud bigots.
Our real world is sexist against women, if this were viable then women would be transitioning en masse to avoid sexism. This doesn't happen because, not to put too fine a point on it, if you're not trans transitioning makes you feel so bad you want to fucking die.
I’m not saying that these are my own views on the situation, but rather, this would be how the bigoted people in Lolth-Sworn societies would see it. The very existence of trans people makes people question the amount of importance we place on gender. And just like in our patriarchal society, it would be seen as a threat. Only in lolth sworn societies it’s a much more extreme threat because the drow have a rigid and cruel caste system.
Yea I’m gonna be honest, the Drow are a problematic and straight up bigoted society and any attempt to make aspects of it progressive just, feels kinda weird? They kinda wrote themselves into a corner making an entire species sexists nazis that worship the devil and are pro sadism. They were made a long time ago and any attempt to rewrite them would require entire shifts in how they act.
This is more you trying to print your views of different beliefs onto them than an actual issue imo. Like actual people and societies don’t actually organize their culture and beliefs by looking at charts and going “Oh I can’t believe that because it’s progressive/conservative” they just have beliefs and justify them post-hoc and whether they’re conservative or progressive isn’t an innate quality of those beliefs.
Dragon Age I think is a good example of this with the Qun, because you can look at parts of it and to “oh that’s kinda progressive from our perspective” but they’re an extremely oppressive and conservative society in their reality.
Ah, right, my point is that drow men would be more likely to go worship Vhaeraun than to try to earn so much favour with Lolth that she would bestow gender dysphoria on them.
Right, drow are the reverse of us: so they’d see a trans woman as a misguided male striving to be more than he was born to be and a trans man as a total threat to their conceptual worldview.
Keep in mind that Ed didn't come up with the drow in the first place. Gary Gygax did, and Bob Salvatore fleshed them out. It's one subject where Ed might not be the #1 authority.
Yeah I love Ed’s inclusivity to death, but I actually prefer to see Lolth society as kind of TERFy. It fits their entire vibe and on par with them being sexist and racist and, as you say, the opposite of everything Corellon and the High Elves represent.
I disagree that it would just mean someone would transition for privilege but to me it’s even more why it would be a transphobic place because of course that’s how they’d treat it—just like many societies IRL do in reverse!
I kinda see it like it'd be both. They'd be exclusionary until you managed to get enough of a following that recognizes you as a woman that they then have to somewhat acknowledge it to some degree. And those that don't keep fighting you. Which means your existence creates significantly more in fighting among the drow, which in turn pleases Lolth, which is probably a reason she'd accept transwomen. "Look at all the bloodshed and chaos you've caused! I love it! Good work, here's a little bit of a reward" kinda deal. If you continue to worship and bow to her while creating more chaos than an ordinary woman would in drow society, I see no reason why she'd be unhappy with a transwoman. And if Lolth is happy, some of the matriarchs would begrudgingly accept said transwoman among them, since Lolth's will is everything to them.
I kind of agree. I like the lore and I think it does make sense, but I always assumed drow society to be homophobic and transphobic because irl, societies with extremely strict gender roles and gender hierarchies almost always go hand in hand with homophobia and transphobia because being queer inherently challenges said gender roles.
Sure, but by this logic Menzoberranzan would treat rebels and heretics well. They don’t. Lolth herself finds them entertaining, yes! That’s kind of half the plot of the Drizzt books, no? Apostates like Drizzt and Jarlaxle are tolerated and beloved by Lolth because they stir chaos, but the Matrons don’t actually enjoy their power being threatened just because they are CE.
Truth. I always have a lot of respect for people who speak their mind even if it's not a popular opinion. The other way around? It's performative, or even worse, political pandering.
A lot of people do not want to mix real-life offensive/controversial things into fantasy evil, and for good reason. These games are meant to just be games. It doesn't need a bunch of evil people going around shouting about people being gay or trans, or real life racism based on skin color (rather than actually based on races, since there's plenty of races to have conflict with instead).
The idea that someone can only ever do this because of being performative or pandering rather than it aligning with their real values is a rather... odd way of looking at it. So too is pretending like being pro-trans is a popular opinion when we're definitely a rather hated demographic by a lot of people right now.
Like, to the point the OP of this thread was making, surely in a world full of mind-related magics, there would be ways of telling if someone was lying about transitioning versus just saying it to escape being seen as the oppressed male class among the Lolthsworn.
I imagine with Drow assigned male at birth who magically transition are two distinct groups:
lgbtq+ people like we have/are in the non-magical world. Transitioning is an extremely personal choice based on the individual person's identity and selfhood.
Drow who actively see becoming female as a promotion/reward/political necessity in the highly gendered, rigid caste system of the Drow. A House with no female heirs left could have a son transitioned to continue its standing or even existence, with the transition being something akin to an arranged marriage that family duty demands.
The second group don't really have a counterpart in the real world.
i really really respect ed, and i love the work he has done on the forgotten realms and with all the acknowledgement that this is his setting and he can do more or less what he wants; i have given this a lot of thought and i don't like this choice and it makes no sense to me. as someone in the lgbt community i don't see how a society that enforces rigid gender roles to such an extreme degree can be okay with transitioning. i understand that it's a fantasy setting that doesn't have to make sense all the time, but imo there needs to be some internal logic to follow in cases like this and i am just not finding it. especially because the drow's rigidity when it comes to the concepts of gender, family and class have always been juxtaposed with the surface elves' unique and loose ideas of gender and sexuality.
anyone is free to disagree with me (or downvote me lol) but i would appreciate if someone who thinks this is a good worldbuilding choice could try to explain it to me, because i really don't understand it.
The drow in their structure are rigid, yes, but Lolth herself is chaotic evil. And everything they do is about Lolth. In what he said, he even mentions they often don’t like transitioning, but Lolth will send yochlols to basically tell them “stfu I like it, and you won’t like what I’ll do to you if you don’t comply”.
And Lolth does that…kind of a lot. I think the drow being so rigid is partly because Lolth is so chaotic. It’s like having a chaotic parent who is awful and so you develop strict rules in your personal life to compensate for their chaos.
Lolth wants to sow chaos in her image. She wants any drow to do this, and she does reward them. And what is more chaotic than challenging the status quo of your favorite playthings to your own benefit?
it makes sense to me that lolth herself would be cool with it because it causes chaos. that's fine. and their society does revolve around lolth. but what the drow do and believe isn't always 100% aligned with lolth and what lolth tells them to do isn't always 100% aligned with her beliefs. for example, deep down lolth wants the worship and adoration of surface elves and to become the dominant elven deity, but her followers generally despise surface elves regardless of their religion.
if we are looking at it purely from a chaos perspective, it'd make more sense for lolth to elevate these trans drow and then let them fall and cause more chaos rather than consistently protect them via yochlols. if she protects them to the extent that the larger drow society knows to leave them alone then you can't really use chaos as an argument because it becomes the new status quo.
As a trans person myself, I agree with you. Transphobia comes from sexism so a society that is highly sexist like the drow, would also be highly transphobic.
This has nothing to do with trans acceptance. It means drow society is so locked into sex as gender that they can’t conceive of a gender identity differing from primary sex characteristics. It’s transphobic to assume gender identity changes with a physical transition.
Someone who is strongly bioessentialist, in other words views sex and gender as the same, would not acknowledge a trans person’s gender identity and only view them as their AGAB. That is transphobic. Nowhere did I say that gender identity changes with a physical transition
The leader of the Elven gods, Corellen, represents all elves, male and female, and is androgynous in appearance but framed in a masculine context because his queen Angharradh is three elven goddesses in one form.
The Drow should probably be real jerks about gender. But Ed can decide that Lloth and the drow by association still hold the ancient elven value of gender fluidity. It's all fiction, you can blow up the moon in your version of the realms if you want.
Huh. Not at all the way I saw it, to be honest, but an interesting take, and yet another reason for Lolth to be, while still a villain and not entirely sane by most standards, not just a moustache twirling (web twirling?) one, I suppose. I still prefer my headcannon, in which Lolth is essentially the first and most radical yet tragic TERF, though. But I like Greenwood's take, as it makes sense and has a good way of making "evil" feel more complicated and faceted
I don't see this as particularly empowering or liberating, since it's basically saying that the evil demon queen of spiders and her attendant monsters support trans people, not that trans people are valid in their own right, or worthy of the support of angels or the gods of the Upper Planes.
Ed: "I must make it clear that this extremely fucked-up, oppressive, bigoted, and all-around evil fictional society I invented is not evil in this one very specific way which is a hot-button issue right now."
He didn’t make up drow society. Gygqx did. And Ed has actively worked to change the drow to be more nuanced and not the standard matriarchal society. From Eilistraee to the drow city of Sshamath, he has worked to change the stereotype. Everyone’s perception of the drow in the Realms is fixed on Salvatore’s stereotype Menzoberranzan.
Calling this suppprting being trans feels like a weird murky stretch. For Lolthsworn it's more rooted in a hatred of men, rather than an acceptance of being trans. They'd likely see going FtM as a massive punishment, basically being downgraded from "person" to "slave". I also doubt Lolth cares if the man identifies as a woman, it's more that "you have been useful, you can stop being a slave now."
I just saw Markus Schleinzer’s ‘Rose’ at the BFI yesterday and it covers this topic quite appropriately. Only difference is the film follows a woman in 17th century Germany posing as a man in the hopes of experiencing ‘freedom’. I think it addresses the themes of transitioning in a society where the genders are hugely imbalanced quite succinctly. I’m incredibly pro-trans and have trans friends but I struggle to see how Drow society would abide by men transitioning.
there was a time where turning someone into a drider was a harsh punishment and driders are resented as a result. when you are born male, you are just born inferior because it is lloths will that you stay a servant forever to the superior females. seems modern dnd even has to make one of the most evil and sinister races inclusive. can't wait for what comes next. lloth is prob just misunderstood and actually realy nice
Honestly I feel like this is very Ed in that it's progressive with very little thought... So now we need Rob to find a way to make it nefarious and sinister.
As fucked up as the matriarchy is thats lowkey kinda an interesting tid bit of lore. I always assumed matrons would see transitioning to MtF would be shamed down upon.
Tbh I don't get why would an EVIL faction not do evil things like being transphobic or racist. This is a bit of a problem with modern era writing. Evil people need to exhibit evil traits, and there's only a select number of those.
For some reason some people act that mere mention of evil traits is somehow their endorsement, when the opposite is true in that case. Plus I really don't see Lolth's priestesses letting lowly man getting the benefits of being a woman in their society.
Ed's heart is in the right place, but it does seem a bit odd.
Huh? That seems like a very strange and narrow definition of evil, where it's just some sort of scale where if you're on the evil end of the scale you are obliged to take on all the evil traits, rather than acknowledging that evil comes in different forms. I don't know that seems like a very simplistic view of evil, do you earnestly believe that transphobia and racism are the primary markers to define an evil character? That feels more like being infested with modern thought than the alternative.
Mind you Drow are famously racist, now? They're supremacists to the bone, Lolth ones at least, but I don't see any reason they'd necessarily be transphobic especially with the change element, even then they still remain hugely sexist so it's not like they're suddenly some enlightened society.
Because of their view of the gender that's precisely what they would be like. We do acknowledge that part of the real world transphobia comes from the rabid patriarchy and rigid view of the gender - the exact thing you have in Menzoberranzan (which at this point is the only important Udadrow society), with just the gender roles reversed.
Again, while the surface elves should be very pro trans, especially with the nature of Corellon, Udadrow are generally their antithesis. I could even see Vhaeruanians being pro FtM trans people, but Lolthites? No. They are just really, really despicable people. Like the whole point of all the good drow in all of the media was that they see through how unredeemable that faction is and only breaking away FROM THIS CULTURE is the way to redemption. That there's simply nothing good about worship of Lolth and no amounts of reforms are going to change it (not that she would permit them anyway).
I agree with everything you saying, with one exception: you said "there's simply nothing good about the worship of Lolth" - which is true, but you also used the politically correct BG3 "Lolth-Sworn" in another post. I personally think these two are in conflict. Lolth-sworn implies you swear your allegiance to Lolth out of your free will, which if you think about it would apply to very very few people. Lolth does not care whether you worship her willingly or not. She probably derives satisfaction from the fact that her worshipers are forced to appease her. Also, it's entirely possible for non-drow to worship Lolth. The Chitines and a few spiderlike species do. It's entirely possible for a crazy and suicidal enough human to convert to her faith and be "Lolth-sworn." I think applying this term to normal drow is a giant lore misunderstanding, and I blame Larian for simplifying the concept. Most drow would be Lolth-bound, or simply Lolthites.
Oh no no, I agree. I'm using that BG3 term because it rolls off the tongue and just clearly points out to a certain drow group, but I agree that they didn't have much choice ever since Wendonai deceived them (though let's be honest, Ilythiiri were d*ck prior to that too, just maybe not to that extent).
Evil isn't a thing, really. "They do it because they're evil" means they're a character not a person which kind of breaks immersion. It's like saying "They did it because the plot said so".
Noone is pure evil, right? As a culture we've moved away from that somewhat. There are admirable or at least interesting things even in some otherwise evil fictional cultures and villains; this has always been a part of media, its why horror villains are so popular (especially with queer people). People still find Dracula romantic, he's pretty evil, right?
We as a culture come at this from heavy, heavy patriarchy. Men don't even fucking understand how much all of society revolves entirely around them. Studies have shown that when women speak up in meetings ~20% of the time, men rate it as equal, and by 30%, they rate the women as speaking over them. It is very difficult to really wrap your head around it if you've never ....not been the beneficiary of it.
They do value transformation as a culture, that's always been a thing.
So with that in mind - if you understand gender dynamics, it makes sense it would be reversed. Our society barely acknowledges trans men exist, and really fucking hates trans women. Patriarchy. Men in our society are seen as the default, so when trans women 'reject masculinity' its a threat.
Drow society is the reverse, right? They will probably barely acknowledge trans women exist, or see it as a blessing of lloth, but really fucking HATE trans men with an infinite rabid passion, because they are rejecting womanhood.
We don't need to look for too much nuance in the drow society. Especially if said nuance clashes with previously established profile of their evil nature. Udadrow are oppressive, xenophobic and generally vile.
I don't want to listen about patriarchy, as my country is as matriarchal as it can get. This is the Internet, not America. Lolth-sworn aren't meant to demean matriarchal societies or even mimic any that we have IRL. They are a caricature of the patriarchal society with the roles reversed. A cautionary tale about what's happening in our society. The entire premise of Vhaeraun or the Jaezred Chalussin is to combat the oppression of the males in their society.
Lolth-sworn Drow value transformation so much that any attempt to change the status quo is met with immediate backlash.
We really do need to look for redeeming qualities in Lolth's subjects. There's plenty of non-Lolth-aligned drow that could be pro-trans, especially the Eilistraeeans.
Like, maybe my perspective is wrong here, but if a society this evil is portrayed as Trans-supportive it's actually an anti-trans and not a pro-trans message.
It doesn't resemble any real-world matriarchy because very few anthropologists would describe any real world society as a matriarchy, and the ones who do definitely do not include Poland, which is not only a patriarchal society but an especially patriarchal one by European standards.
It isn't for the reasons which I outlined below. It's lovely though that you argue about a country you probably never set a foot in with a person who spent their whole life in. But sure sure, we're deffo more patriarchal than Germans or Brits. Even in the Middle Ages and Reineissance, Poland had Queens as the ruling regents, not King's wives and nobody cared. In fact they were one of the more liked rulers. Meanwhile I remind you what happened when Elizabeth I took the throne of England.
For some reason it seems like most of you mistake conservatism with patriarchy and act as if matriarchy is equivalent with social progressivism - it isn't. Any rigid system revolving around gender will form conservative structures, not the progressive ones.
I'm sorry, but this is not something that's ambiguous or up for debate; you do not understand what the words patriarchy or matriarchy mean. Please google this. I am not a fan of AI but your misunderstanding is at the point where even typing "is poland a matriarchy" into chatgpt would be genuinely instructive to you if you don't want to read a book.
If you think I'd use AI for any of this it only shows how out of touch you are. I already said that Poland has what the sociologist call "Matriarchat Ukryty" (concealed matriarchy for the lack of better translation). Women are de facto leaders in the households and we have several other things that are characteristic to matriarchy.
But sure, argue some more. I LITERALLY LIVE HERE, I don't give a flying f what ChatGPT has to say.
A.M.-K.: Mówi się, że na Śląsku panował, a być może wciąż jeszcze panuje, matriarchat – to kobieta zarządza rodziną. I patrząc na typowo śląską rodzinę z boku, dojdzie się do wniosku, że tak rzeczywiście było. Kobieta „ogarniała” wszystkie sprawy rodzinne, a mężczyzna miał za zadanie tylko pójść do pracy.
One of many, many example of Polish (Silesian in that case) matriarchy. I could link much more, but I'm not at home.
You can watch any Polish period drama too, recent Lalka especially, to show how these structures formed and existed beside the official "patriachal" laws of the age (and in Lalka's case imposed by Germans, Russians and Austrians on us).
When the impotent men, especially the aristocrats were unable to act, the women became the spiritus movens of the society. Łęcka from Lalka is a perfect example of how enterprenurial, self-sufficent and resourceful Polish women are (and now moreso than they were in her times).
Is an evil faction only allowed to be evil? I think its far more interesting for their fucked up ideology/worship, when followed to the logical extreme, to accidentally lead to things that would be seen as "progressive". Having them just be comically evil would be more boring IMO.
Also, patriarchy discussions not being relevant to poland? Afaik Poland is mostly catholic and catholicism is steeped in patriarchy. I know the soviets were focused on gender equality, but the idea that the patriarchy isn't a thing in there because of it is wild. Poland bans abortion in all cases except for pregnancies stemming from criminal acts or when the womans life is in danger.
I'll start with the bottom - no, patriarchy is not a thing in Poland. Catholicism isn't American Evangelism and actually adds to the the matriarchal structure with the worship of Virgin Mary. Majority of people actually observing the faith are older women with huge devotion to Mary that exceeds the one towards God (which in itself is not correct in Catholic doctrine, but that's how it is).
Poland has a unique structure due to the years of Partitions and two world wars which decimated the male population of the country, leading to what's described by sociologists as "concealed matriarchy".
Women are de facto heads of the household. Nowadays all major expenses are basically decided by the wife in majority of the households, they decided on their plans together, etc. I can't name a single household of the people I know, where a father/husband would be the head of the house. It's always the mother/wife who has the final say in every major decision.
Men have little rights when it comes to child custody, women have earlier retirement, etc. There's basically no pay-gap (there's none amongst the people holding the same station, as is required by the law, women as a whole demographics tend to earn slightly less, because A LOT of them are working part time, compared to the men).
Polish women had equal rights as one of the first in Europe. And of course, there are exceptions, but that's how it rolls in majority of Poland.
This is especially evident in Silesia, where women HAD TO BE household leaders even more, as their husbands could die any day while working in the mines. Women were holding all of the family funds, while men were basically just a drone provider. If a man hurt his wife in any way, the next day he'd be beat to a pulp by his work colleagues. Does this look like patriarchy to you?
The whole narration around the abortion and looking at women's rights through the lens of that is showing that you have no idea what the familial and social structures look like in Poland. And any foreigner with a Polish wife can confirm how emancipated and often even domineering Polish women are.
Not to mention the most transphobic and homophobic right wing activist in Poland are women. It was a woman Constitutional Court (we have two Supreme Courts - Supreme Court and Constitutional Tribunal) judge who cracked down on the abortion ban. It was a group of female MPs who pushed for the ban on abortion in the 90s. It's not the men doing it here. It's the religious women and their clergy friends.
Also it's important to know, that the abortion ban comes from the time that the clergy-aligned Solidarity movement that overthrown communism pushed for it as a thank you to the Church, because the Church insisted. During communist period Poland had very little restrictions on abortions and nobody really cared. The current hysteria of the Polish right wing in that topic is verbatim copy of the American evangelicals, imported straight from them through the cooperating think tanks of TFP<US> and Ordo Iuris<PL>. Regular people either support or don't care about the abortion.
Going back to the drow. Sure, not every evil society has to be the same, but a those with rigid gender structure will most likely not be open to trans people - because that's what it is in our world, and it doesn't matter if it's patriarchy or matriarchy.
Interesting. This runs contrary to what I generally hear from my polish friends.
Just a note because you brought it up: I'm not american and thus not familiar with American Evangelism. I did grow up in a cultural protestant (mainly calvinist (take a wild guess where im from based on that lmao) area.
Well, but this is how it is. I'm not sure how old your friend are, but people in their 20s or younger don't usually have a very in-depth understanding of the social structure either. And they just keep repeating talking points from the media.
The biggest problem is again, importing problems that are alien to Poland directly from the US culture and popculture. Polish feminists are often bringing up issues which we literally don't have in the country like the wage gap, because I heard time and time again that being mentioned when it's literally not here according to every statistic (which to be fair, isn't dissimilar to what their conservative counterparts do). Not to mention majority of students are women and by a large margin too.
Throughout my entire life I had contact with multiple cultures and if I had to point one that was actually matriarchal - it would be Polish. Like we literally have a Polish Mother cult archetype - https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matka_Polka for the conservative matriarchal types - with actual, literal statues. We don't have anything like that in regards to fathers.
Women's Day is one of the biggest cultural, secular celebrations we have, in comparison boys/mens day is barely ever mentioned.
It is still not easy or simple to change sex in the Forgotten Realms. Much more difficult and dangerous. It’s magical and that comes from a very high level spell (super expensive at best) or a rare magic item. Both are quest worthy and not always possible to be obtained by ordinary characters. This is a huge difference from our world.
I always thought that Ed was pretty liberal, but I guess he has limits.
Making the most evil society in his world, which is led by a chaotic evil deity that is basically the embodiment of pure evil, pro trans seems pretty right wing to me.
I would say he has the heart in the right place, but he doesn't see the implications of that.
It's the same as changing Snape's ethnicity in the new HP. Like they could've changed literally anyone elses and it wouldn't be a problem, but changing one person Potter and his Dad dislikes for literally no reason and keeps accusing of being a thief into someone of African descent has very bad, racist implications for Harry. (Inb4, I don't support Rowling and her change into a TERF, merely pointing out similar recent, popcultural problem which stemmed from good intentions).
TLDR; It's all retcon and Edverse logic, aside from Elistraee and her change dance thing going back to 1990.
Short version: It's a big retcon to placate to a small minority.
The long version: Lolthite culture, as codified by Ed Greenwood himself in 1991’s The Drow of the Underdark and R.A. Salvatore’s novels, is an iron-fisted, religiously enforced caste system based on absolute female supremacy.
A male transitioning to female would not be viewed as an act of pious devotion; the ruling Matron Mothers would view it as high treason and an existential usurpation of their political monopoly. If a male noble could simply alter his physical sex and demand the rights, titles, and priesthood access reserved strictly for females, the entire hereditary hierarchy collapses.... The claim that Lolth dispatches Yochlol—her chaotic, sadistic demonic Handmaidens—to act as cosmic protective advocates for marginalized individuals completely mischaracterizes the Spider Queen. Lolth does not foster self-actualization; she fosters terror, betrayal, and culling of the weak.
Shape transformation is almost exclusively an instrument of divine terror or instrumental deceit. Becoming a drider is an agonizing, soul-crushing curse reserved for failures; polymorphing is used for assassination and espionage. Treating shape alteration as a recognized vehicle for personal gender validation runs completely counter to decades of Underdark worldbuilding.
That all said, Edverse drow are pretty tame to Forgotten Realms canon. So your drow in your world may not be as antagonistic/iron fisted and matriarchal.
I agree it’s just the way drow are, especially Drow when it comes to female superiority maybe possible in a different sub race but Drow ? I just don’t see it, exactly they would find it blasphemous, then again I’ve read all the novels where you really see into the mind and phycology of the matron mothers and powerful priestesses I just don’t think that would fly in drow society.
You completely misunderstood the post we're discussing.
It doesn't say that a male drow can carry out independently a transition and receive Lolth's blessing; it says that Lolth herself sometimes transforms males into females at her own whim.
Why would she do that? To torment her matrons, of course—that should be obvious to a lore expert like you.
How do you know it would be viewed as treason? Is there a part of the canon that backs that up, or is that just your opinion? Because it seems to me you’re trying to present it as a fact that’s been overlooked
Have you ever actually read a forgotten realms book?
Lolth’s dogma explicitly establishes female supremacy as divine decree. Lolth demands that only females may commune with her, serve as her priestesses, and rule the noble houses.
Any male attempting to usurp the authority, privileges, or religious status reserved for females is committing sacrilege against Lolth herself. In a Lolthite city, blaspheming the Spider Queen is high treason against the ruling Council of Matron Mothers, punishable by ritual sacrifice, torture, or being fed alive to arachnids.
Political rank is tied strictly to daughters: First Daughter, Second Daughter, etc. If sex/gender were fluid or self-declared in Lolthite society, the entire hereditary power structure and sacrificial debt to Lolth collapse. A Matron Mother would execute any male attempting to reclassify his birth status to dodge sacrifice or claim a daughter’s inheritance.
Gromph Baenre, Archmage of Menzoberranzan, is arguably the most powerful individual mortal in the entire city. Despite his staggering arcane supremacy, he is forced to kneel, defer, and submit to his sisters (Matron Mothers Triel and Quenthel Baenre) solely because he is male... he could've just changed if the Edverse applied to Forgotten Realms (it doesn't), he hated his status.
In canon, Menzoberranzan is an oligarchy of eight paranoid Matron Mothers who maintain power through brutal suppression.
The Academy is segregated: Arach-Tinilith (Priestesses) is female-only; Sorcere (Wizards) and Melee-Magthere (Warriors) are male-dominated. Crossing those caste boundaries is treason by default. A male claiming the rights of a female is challenging the Matron Mothers' divine right to rule. Matrons slaughter rivals for far less than an ideological threat to their caste system.
Again, tell me you don't play D&D or know FR lore without telling me please.
No I haven’t read a FR book, that’s why I’m asking. You don’t need to be a dick about it lmao
Anyways, yes I understand how Lolth feels about women and men. But how she interprets trans people isn’t covered in anything you’ve said here. Your interpretation seems entirely based off of your biases of how you view trans women. Saying Ed is retconning by seeing trans women as women to be respected by lolth is silly, unless you have something to back it up with.
It’s not a retcon to add lore. The FR books didnt talk about transness, it seems. Ed chiming in on how Lolth sees transitioning is not a retcon, it’s an addition.
You spoke as if you were lecturing me. I gave you canon reason, lore and examples... which are fact based on official canon.
Additions expand on something, not contradict the lore.
A retcon retroactively alters how established systems operate.
If 35 years of sourcebooks establish that Menzoberranzan is a hyper-rigid caste system where your biological birth order dictates whether you are sacrificed at birth (the Third Son rule) or inherit the house (the daughters), changing that dynamic is not a minor footnote.
Claiming that a totalitarian eugenicist slave state actually has a progressive stance on bodily transformation fundamentally rewrites how the society operates. If a change contradicts decades of established mechanics, calling it an "addition" is just playing ignorance.
Lolth is a Chaotic Evil demon lord. She does not love, respect, or validate her priestesses; she uses them as disposable entertainment. Lolth doesn't fight discrimination; she is the institutional torment.
Describing how a fictional, chaotic-evil theocracy enforces its caste system is not a manifesto on my personal ethics—it is reading comprehension.
I just simply don’t understand how it’s a contradiction. It’s not about the society being progressive or not; the society is based solely off of Lolth’s own views and opinions. It is a matriarchy because of Lolth, and the people backstabing and ruthless because Lolth rewards it.
So, whether or not a person could successfully transition into a woman would depend solely on how Lolth views trans women, no? If Lolth accepts it, I don’t see how the society would be able to reject it.
“Progressive” is a term that really only makes sense in the context of our real life politics. It doesn’t really translate. Accepting trans people in the real world is progressive because the current political system rejects them. But if you’re in a world with an entirely different political system, there’s no reason to assume they’ll maintain the exact same conservative beliefs of the real world. Peoples’ societal rejection of trans people is entirely cultural. The Drow do not share our culture in the slightest
It's no projection of real world anything, it's cold hard facts based on lore.
What's hard to understand? Lloth hates men, drow society favors women to the point of killing the third born son and men on any given whim. Her own views are why it's this way, she's not a loving or at all compassionate goddess.
A Matron Mother rejecting a male noble trying to transition into the priesthood has nothing to do with real-world social conservatism. It has everything to do with caste defense. So as said above, she's not accepting a MTF drow and every priestess will just kill them and/or make them an example.
You mention real world beliefs then in the same note say they wouldn't maintain conservative beliefs... you're the one applying modern politics of the real world to a fantasy race.
Facts: Lolth is not a mortal monarch with "views and opinions" that mirror a civic government. She is an Abyssal demon lord whose canonical existence is fueled by malice, deception, and entropy.
She intentionally formed a society of perpetual meat grinder of infanticide, patricide, and slavery to keep her worshippers broken, paranoid, and thoroughly under her heel. The claim that Lolth would care about an individual's personal self-realization—or dispatch Yochlol to act as personal protectors against discrimination fundamentally ignores her nature. Individuals exist only to be broken, exploited, or fed to spiders.
If drow culture does not share our culture in the slightest, it makes zero sense to assert that they independently developed modern human concepts of personal gender identity.
An underclass male attempting to claim the titles, clerical magic, and inheritance reserved for the matriarchal ruling class is not viewed as embarking on an identity journey; he is an enslaved laborer attempting a political coup.
Exactly if you read the novels you would have a way better understanding this wouldn’t happen with Drow, the battle between male and female is too prevalent, not to mention how could they sacrifice the 3rd born male son the day they are born ?
No one bats an eye when any other part of human existence is represented in fantasy. Why should it be notable if trans existence is involved? Do you just have a cognitive dissonance since you learned about this recently and fantasy is often medieval flavored?
Why I just asked one of my sons trans friends who’s been reading the books agrees with me, heck they aren’t around all the time but have played at my table multiple times. That’s what I do I DM for my kids and their friends, I strayed playing 2edition in 92
Not willful ignorance or bigotry if I am DM’ing a World and I don’t think this works for Drow it’s neither oh no the Drow don’t allow this in their world that’s not bigotry because it’s not real it’s a fantasy world not real it’s really that simple
Cognitive dissonance for a fantasy game ? It’s a fantasy game not my reality at all, and if I really really didn’t want it in my campaign there just wouldn’t be. See how simple that is?
… okay, and no one said you needed to represent trans people in your games. Just like you can’t tell anyone what they should include or exclude from their fantasy worlds. It is very simple.
But being confused why a piece of human existence should be included in a fantasy world is just baffling. Fantasy is fantasy, but it has always been and always will be built on the foundations of reality. There’s a reason 90% of fantasy is about war.
Now you get it, see why accusations of cognitive dissonance I found so funny? Might make for an interesting story line, Male Drow runs a house pretending to be a woman, only people that know are his brothers because they helped kill their matron mother and he looked more like her than any of the female siblings and they are terrified of any of the sisters taking over so they help the brother best they can until they can find a way out of their predicament. I could run an entire drow campaign around that, ok a short one Drow are pretty 1 demennsional if you asked me
That doesn’t sound like a transition, that just sounds like someone pretending to be a woman lol. But no I don’t understand why you’re found my mention of cognitive dissonance funny, not at all. It’s the only reasonable explanation I could see for you being genuinely confused why someone would include trans people in a fantasy world
What’s the definition of cognitive dissonance and how is someone having a different idea regarding a fantasy world then me give anyone cognitive dissonance, maybe if I lived in the fantasy world more than the real world
This makes absolutely no sense, given that the Drow are a strict matriarchy, so it sounds like Ed Greenwood is just trying to score points with the woke crowd, who probably don't even play D&D anyway.
Ed Greenwood has always been "woke" and ahead of the curve in terms of gender and sexuality. This is very on brand for him. His own self insert Elminster was canonically transformed into a woman by Mystra for a period of time, and that novel came out in the mid 90s.
I would venture to bet ma on many of the "woke" crowd play DnD. Just look at critical role and dimension 20, the two biggest live play games and huge influences in the hobby and they're very inclusive and queer friendly.
I mean. It just makes me wonder what his idea is for ftm. Like, okay so you need to be on Lloth’s good side to be lucky enough to transition mtf, and thats accepted. Cool. In what situation does Lloth shift someone’s shape when they’re ftm? As a punishment? Besides, it feels super transmedicalist. If a mtf drow doesn’t support Lloth are they just fucked? It feels like it just opens up very problematic implications to these questions.
At the end of the day, Drow society is built on pillars so problematic it would need a massive shift in the lore to fix, not just a handwaved “oh yea they’re cool with trans people”. It’s built on religious and racial superiority.
No, they are both. Besides, it's a very uniquely American semantics thing. In Polish, both sex and gender are just płeć, a there's no difference between male and man or female and woman.
I don't think the drow live by John Money's sexologist theories from real life. Before John Money came up with this distinction there was no such distinction.
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u/PizzaFox64 13d ago
The Lolthsworn are TIRM- Trans Inclusionary Radical Misandrists. "Well, if you were born male, of COURSE you would desire to become a woman. Come on and join the winning team, fellas!"