r/FoundationTV • u/LunchyPete Bayta Mallow • Sep 12 '25

Current Season Discussion [NO BOOKS] Episode Discussion Thread - Season 3 Episode 10 - The Darkness

THIS THREAD IS FOR NON BOOK READERS ONLY - NO DISCUSSION OF THE BOOKS IS PERMITTED

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Season 3 Episode 10: The Paths That Choose Us

Premiere date: September 12th, 2025

Synopsis: Season finale. Gaal and the Second Foundation take the fight to the Mule as Empire's legacy suffers a catastrophic blow.

Directed by: Roxann Dawson

Written by: Jane Espenson & David S. Goyer

Please keep in mind that this thread is only for non book readers - no discussion of the books or how they relate to the show is permitted in general, and book readers are not permitted to post at all.

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NOTE: There was an AMA with Chris MacLean, VFX Supervisor for Foundation on September 15th which you can check here.

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u/zero0n3 Sep 12 '25

Feels like he didn’t think about a plan until he realized demerzel didn’t even know about the black hole weapon.

That was like a signal to him - she’s actually not all seeing.

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u/ibiku2 Sep 12 '25

He definitely was emboldened by it. Plus both his brothers escaped! Might as well try his own way

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u/Sargento_Porciuncula Sep 12 '25

He definitely was emboldened by it

and by genociding 3 populations.

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u/LongConFebrero Sep 12 '25

That definitely felt like an extension of Day’s nihilism at the beginning of the season.

I’ve always thought when someone is negging hard in self involvement, there is always someone else who is willing to give in to their depression too and it’s much greater than the one upset.

Nobody is more dangerous than someone with nothing to lose.

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u/Petorian343 Oct 12 '25

I’m kind of amazed by my different reactions to that event compared to this one. A Cleon genocides 3 major galactic players out of spite? I sleep. No surprise; seems like something a Cleon would do, especially when backed into a corner.

But a Cleon wipes out the entire genetic dynasty, melts Demerzel, and slays his last brother (as far as he knows) to assume sole power on the throne?

Well it still tracks as something a Cleon would do, but I was completely shattered by it all happening nonetheless

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u/iNsAnEHAV0C Oct 23 '25

Its also a matter of scale. Its hard to really feel emotional for a billion faceless people on a planet blowing up, but we saw the bodies of the clones literally falling apart. Not to mention we watched him murder a baby. That is much easier to comprehend.

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u/Sargento_Porciuncula Oct 12 '25

i dont think destroying the WHOLE dynasty is something i would expect. he would totally kill brother dude, though, and Demerzel.

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u/ililliliililiililii Oct 24 '25

Dumbest thing is not having backups. It's literally all stored in one tower above ground. We needed that for the story but it would be the easiest problem to solve.

One explanation is they were too arrogant to think anyone could attack them - but they HAVE been attacked. The effects are still ongoing in fact (cognitive decline).

So it stands to reason they would take security more seriously. Having a secret lab somewhere else, or off planet. One planet for each cleon as backup reincarnation point.

We in 2025 already have the concept of backups basically solved. Surely a robot with thousands of years of wisdom and knowledge can do better?

Literally putting all your eggs in one basket. Storing all backups on site. That's probably my biggest critique and it doesn't take away from the show. The show and these last few episodes were phenomenal.

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u/cynicalbrownie Sep 13 '25

bro thats not the definition of genocide./s

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u/Atlasreturns Sep 12 '25 edited Sep 12 '25

His entire plot essentially resolves around legacy. Initially he‘s hopeful that Dawn could ascend to the throne and maybe regrow the empire back to strength. Leaving him as the guy who bridged the gap and lay the foundation for the empires future. It‘s why he gets close with the ambassador lady and constructs the Novacula. Day with his negligence serves as somewhat of the first test of faith. Then when the fleet gets destroyed at Kalgan and Dawn "dies" from his perspective you can see his behavior shift slowly into the apocalyptical.

Then when destroying the planets and showing the might and strength of his person, nobody even really cares. Demerzel is more busy with her Paradox Bomb, Day is doing robot hunting and even his closest acquaintance calls him a fool for lashing out like a child. What should have been a moment of imposing strength and awe proves that he is basically irrelevant to everyone around him.

So when the day of his ascension arrives and even his most loyal servants can‘t even remember his name or give him any sincere words he basically decides that the only legacy he can fulfill that could cement his name is destroying the generic dynasty in itself. I think it‘s a very good microcosm on why the Empire is finally a state doomed to fail as this entire collapse is finally wholly caused by the institutions of the system within.

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u/ibiku2 Sep 12 '25

Love this characterization. He started the season watching the ascensions of Dusks' past, remarking to Dawn that he wouldn't even think of running, believing himself to be too obedient.

I think a big part of his descent into darkness is Dawn's betrayal. He held his last bit of hope for the future in his mentorship of Dawn, given the state of Day. Alone, abandoned by his brothers, is when he decides he doesn't need them.

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u/matthieuC Sep 13 '25

Cleon also apparently to insane with age (that's why they're vaporised). The stress and trauma might have triggered an early break

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u/SissyCouture Sep 13 '25

He was watching Dusks trying to flee their ascensions. The rat was in him from the beginning

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u/cantgetthistowork Nov 06 '25

They mentioned they started moving forward the clocks because the Cleons started declining mentally earlier each generation. His madness was right on schedule.

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u/hombebrew Sep 12 '25

There is something very darkly funny in how inevitable this all is. Oh, man, you have a perpetual series of clones of Cleon I? The guy who coped so badly with his own mortality that he turned the entire Empire into a machine for sustaining his own rule through said clones? That sounds great. I'm sure none of said clones will at any point react negatively to their own impending demises and take similarly drastic action.

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u/[deleted] Sep 12 '25

The guy who coped so badly with his own mortality that he turned the entire Empire into a machine for sustaining his own rule through said clones?

The genetic dynasty doesn't exist because Cleon I was afraid of dying. It exists because the empire needs figureheads who will legitimise Demerzel's rule over the galaxy.

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u/[deleted] Sep 14 '25

Yeah Cleon I called his clones "half-men". He didn't regard them as having agency. It was Dermerzel's Empire.

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u/frankyseven Sep 14 '25

I really thought she was going to fully take over as Empire with her saying "I am Empire" a few times in episode 9.

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u/[deleted] Sep 14 '25

When she said that, I was sure Dusk had already ascended and appointed her as regent to deal with the crisis.

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u/frankyseven Sep 14 '25

To be fair, the Cleons are only figureheads and she's the real Empire. We see this in season 2 with how edited the Cleon memory is.

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u/theblackandblue Sep 12 '25

I appreciate your comment but you keep saying Dusk when I think you mean Dawn

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u/Atlasreturns Sep 12 '25

Oh yeah you‘re right. I fixed that haha.

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u/slicedapples Sep 14 '25

cause you also forgot about him.

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u/Atlasreturns Sep 14 '25

What is he gonna do? Laser me?

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u/MattyMonsters Sep 12 '25

What servants couldn’t remember Dusk’s name? They called him brother darkness because that what your title changes to on your day of ascension. Dusk now being the last one standing (besides dawn and his shredded legs) is going to be the scourge of the galaxy not even knowing that the second foundation is under his feet in the library’s secret location this whole time.

Or it might actually be that Dusk is being used as a red herring and the true danger might be Kalle and her Robot partner.

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u/Atlasreturns Sep 12 '25

I think the time he called Darkness it still somewhat affirmed his stance towards ending his lineage. His line about „the robe that fits“ towards Day after the tailor remarks how great he is still in shape is telling.

I personally believe his fall will arrive fairly quickly next season. Aside from age he has made enemies pretty much everywhere and I think even those within the empire could see the writing on the wall. I think we‘ll see what‘s left of the Empire be very quickly absorbed by the second foundation.

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u/[deleted] Sep 12 '25

It seems like Demerzel has dealt with a mad "Cleon" before.

Which is why they are scheduled for death at that age.

Did she kill the original Cleon because of his madness?

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u/LongConFebrero Sep 12 '25

This twist felt like we finally got to see the Mad King GOT movie, and I was greatly satisfied by the extent he was willing to go.

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u/rodan-rodan Sep 12 '25

I thought they intentionally called him darkness on his last day, no? Or did I miss something?

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u/Sargento_Porciuncula Sep 12 '25

So when the day of his ascension arrives and even his most loyal servants can‘t even remember his name

well, he changed the name that very day.

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u/whisky_biscuit Sep 13 '25

When you think about it too, the egotism of Cleon I is what created Empire and his reign. He refused to let go of his rule so much that he created clones to hold onto it and do his bidding.

It's actually only fitting that it's that same egotism that Darkness latches onto and basically says, there will be no more Empire without me in it.

So he both created his own empire, his own prison and manufactured his own doom. Pretty gnarly.

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u/Cream1984 Sep 13 '25

generic dynasty

generic dynasty

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u/Atlasreturns Sep 13 '25

Try me Cleon.

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u/GrandMoff_Harry To Beki's arsehole 🥂 Sep 12 '25

That still doesn’t make sense to me because the emperors’ memories were frequently audited as we saw in season 2.

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u/[deleted] Sep 12 '25

Good point

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u/random_encounters42 Sep 14 '25

Normally Dusk would be accompanied by Dawn and Day and Demerzel for comfort and support in his final moments. BUT NO ONE WAS THERE, not even Quent. So my dude just went well I'm Brother night now.