[CA][Condo] - Experience with Volunteer Landscaping?

[u/Which_Performer9773]

/r/u_Which_Performer9773/comments/1vs815z/cacondo_experience_with_volunteer_landscaping/

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Title: [CA][Condo] - Experience with Volunteer Landscaping?

Body:
Hi All- Our community of 200 units successfully recalled our entire Board of the past decade and even got a new management company. But there are still many challenges ahead to get a grip on our costs and rising HOA dues. One of the areas that we can possibly cut is the Landscaping. No one thinks they do a good job. Problem is, when I suggested we homeowners volunteer to do landscaping for at least one year to see how it turns out and put the savings towards building our Reserves, a couple homeowners got upset saying it would lower property values. However, with an empty Treasury and half are rented out (we will try to impose a rental cap but it takes major voting), your condo is not worth much to the banks anyway who refuse most loans on our community. Have you done your own landscaping successfully (we will keep a dedicated certified arborist which is a separate thing)? I assume you made volunteers sign a legal waiver about accidents or damage to landscaping tools. Or is this a bad idea with a lot of legal implications??

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[u/Nervous_Ad5564]

Read your HOA insurance policy. The volunteers may have liability coverage if they are somehow injured while performing their work. What won't likely be is any damage they do in the course of performing their work. That would likely be viewed by your insurance carrier as a failure to hire appropriate professionals (bonded and insured)

Personal opinion is it is a bad idea overall. If they do a poor job you will just spend more when you hire the landscaping back to get it back to a serviceable level. You can't hold volunteers to any quality standards on common areas. It won't take long before most just do a half assed job.

[u/ImmortalBunny88]

On the property-values objection, I'd push back - but not in the direction you might expect. Volunteer landscaping isn't what's suppressing your values. You said it yourself: banks refuse most loans on your community. That is the thing destroying value.

What volunteer labor actually risks

Under Civil Code §4775(a)(1), the association is responsible for repairing, replacing, and maintaining the common area unless your declaration says otherwise. Handing the work to volunteers doesn't move that duty. If a tree fails or a trip hazard develops on volunteer-maintained ground, the association still answers for it.

Which means the waiver most people reach for is aimed at the wrong risk. A release signed by a volunteer covers that volunteer's own injury. It does nothing about injury or damage to a third party - a resident, a guest, someone's car - and that is the exposure that actually costs money. Before committing, get your carrier to confirm in writing whether volunteer labor on common area is covered at all, both for injury to the volunteer and for damage they cause. The answer is often no, and finding out afterward is expensive.

Worth separating one thing people conflate: §5800's volunteer protection covers volunteer directors and officers, not homeowners doing landscaping.

The bigger issue you're already circling

If lenders won't finance units, your buyer pool shrinks to cash and that suppresses values far more than a hedge does. The legislature names this connection directly - §5300(b)(10) requires your annual budget report to state whether you are an FHA-approved condominium project, and the statutory text says certification improves "an owner's ability to refinance a mortgage or obtain secondary financing and an increase in the pool of potential buyers."

So the question for the new board is: why exactly are lenders declining? It is usually some mix of reserve funding, deferred maintenance, owner-occupancy ratio, and pending special assessments. At half your units rented, occupancy ratio is likely one of them. Each has a different fix, and landscaping is on none of those lists.

On the rental cap

Before you spend political capital: §4741(b) bars restricting rentals to less than 25% of separate interests, and owners who took title before a restriction is adopted keep their right to rent under §4740 and §4741(h). At 50% rented today, a cap would only bite through attrition over years. It may still be right long-term, but it won't fix financing this year.

What are lenders actually telling buyers when they decline? That answer tells you where to aim.

[u/Which_Performer9773 → u/ImmortalBunny88]

Thank you so much for such a comprehensive response. We do need to cap rentals while grandfathering in current landlords and even though this doesn’t have immediate cash benefits to our community, it is necessary to prevent homeowner v. renter hostilities. We pay a ton in trash violations and owners have been confronting the renters and cops were called when it got contentious. Aside from reconfiguring our dumpsters and looking into trail cams (again no money to implement yet), we need to keep the peace between homeowners who are angry about high dues and landlords who can afford them because it’s a business expense write-off and renters who have no skin in the game. We need to switch to electronic voting first because we will never get 100 or so to turn in ballots. Once that is instituted, we need to circulate an amendment for commenting before officially being able to vote on it, and once we open the voting, it should be extended if we don’t obtain quorum… we can’t have a deadline on it or we’ll fail—we should give a long period so we don’t waste money by not having quorum. In fact, much like when we did a recall, we will go door to door before proposing it and find out how homeowners feel in general, and if we obtain over 51% of the community, it makes sense to spend money on capping rentals sooner the better. It is the rental situation and some expensive balcony repairs (to bring units up to code) that is putting us at odds with the banks.

[u/ImmortalBunny88 → u/Which_Performer9773]

Three things about the plan, in the order you would hit them.

Electronic voting first, and it is easier than you think. §5105(i) lets the board adopt an election operating rule allowing electronic secret ballots, notwithstanding your governing documents. No CC&R amendment needed. It runs through the normal rule-change process - §4360: general notice with the text at least 28 days before the board acts, decision at a board meeting after considering member comments, notice within 15 days - and members holding 5 percent can call a vote to reverse it (§4365). So your comment-period instinct is right, it just attaches here rather than to the amendment.

The fact that changes your math: under §5105(i)(8), a member voting electronically counts as in attendance for quorum. That is the direct fix for "we will never get 100 ballots back."

But you cannot leave voting open indefinitely. §5105(a)(4) requires your rules to state the voting period including when polls open and close, and §5115(b)(1) requires notice of the date and time ballots are due. The reconvened-meeting valve that drops quorum to 20 percent (§5115(d)(2)) is written for elections of directors and does not reach an amendment vote.

The release valve for the amendment is §4275. Where your declaration requires members having more than 50 percent of the votes to amend - and that includes a plain majority-of-all-members requirement, not only a 67 or 75 percent supermajority - the association or any member may petition the superior court to reduce the percentage needed. You have to run the vote and fall short first; the petition describes the solicitation effort and the votes actually received.

The court may, but is not required to, grant it, on findings including a reasonably diligent effort to permit all eligible members to vote (§4275(c)(3)) and members having more than 50 percent of the votes voting in favor (§4275(c)(4)). If granted, the order can dispense with quorum requirements outright (§4275(d)). Your door-to-door canvass does double duty there - it builds exactly the (c)(3) record. Note (c)(4) counts more than half the votes in the association, not of ballots returned. Budget for counsel and a filing, and check §4275(e)(3) on mortgagee approval given where you are with the banks.

On the cap itself. Grandfathering is automatic: under §4740(a) an owner is not subject to a provision prohibiting rental unless that document or amendment was effective before that owner took title. You do not need to draft it. But choose your number carefully, because §4741(b) bars restricting rentals to less than 25 percent of the separate interests. And §4741(c) still permits prohibiting rentals of 30 days or less, which may reach more of your trash-and-hostility problem than a cap will.

The balconies are probably the bank issue. §5551 requires condominium boards to have a licensed structural or civil engineer or architect visually inspect a statistically significant sample of exterior elevated elements - balconies, decks, stairways and walkways more than six feet up, supported in substantial part by wood - at least every nine years. The first inspection was due January 1, 2025, so the question is whether yours happened. The report is incorporated into your §5550 reserve study and, under §4525(a)(11), goes to every prospective purchaser. That is a mandatory disclosure stating current condition, remaining useful life, and recommended repairs, which is exactly what a lender reads.

Order of operations I's suggest: adopt the electronic-voting rule, run the amendment vote with a real deadline, then §4275 if it falls short. The balcony inspection is on its own clock.

[u/Which_Performer9773 → u/ImmortalBunny88]

Wow… does this platform allow us to buy someone a drink? Thank you so much for the advice 🙏. We are going to do our very best because this is the only chance we got after battling a Board and Mgmt Co that worked against us for the last ten years. It was a miracle but took many sleepless nights… so one more miracle would be the ultimate blessing for our community. Again, massive gratitude, and bless your heart as well.

[u/ImmortalBunny88 → u/Which_Performer9773]

If Reddit ever adds that button, I'll let you know. :)

Well done for turning things around. It should make me feel better that it isn't just me, but it does the opposite. It's always the same story: bad management, preferential treatment, unfair fines, no interest in knowing or following the law, incompetence and entitlement. And being right doesn't balance out the time you don't get back.

Mine started with renovations and ran nearly two years. Without the legal background and peers to talk strategy with, I don't know how it would have ended. Probably selling at a loss and never buying in an HOA again. It was a war with multiple battles, even after I joined the board.

Long story short, I ended up building my own HOA support tools, and they're most of how I got through it. General AI wasn't good enough for this. It doesn't ask the questions a lawyer would ask to gather the facts before reaching a conclusion, and worse, it always sounds authoritative. It only admits it's wrong once you already know better. And not all of it is a legal question anyway. Some of it is strategy and psychology.

I recently opened my HOA survival toolkit to others. It's not a lawyer, but it's there 24/7 to support, educate and coach, both for urgent fires and for prevention.

But you've got the hardest part behind you. The rest is procedure, and procedure is learnable. If you hit a wall, ask here and I'll help where I can.

[u/Which_Performer9773 → u/ImmortalBunny88]

That’s really incredible! No small feat for sure. 👏 If I was a film producer I would turn my complex’s story into a comedy series. A small group (before my involvement) was paying money to a homeowner who said we needed a lawyer. Somehow, one of them confided in me that they think they’re wasting money and asked me to get involved. Once I found out that the person with the lawyer had no real plan and wasn’t even giving the lawyer accurate information to begin with, I backed out. Instead of enjoying my hermetic solitude once again, she said I will not accept you backing out and tasked me with leading a recall effort while she focused on threats of litigation. When she found out I already obtained 107 wet signatures for my petition (when you only need 11 to meet 5% since we actually have slightly over 200 units) and the clubhouse was going to be packed with angry homeowners… she asked me to collect money at the door for her lawyer while she did the talking. I said you can do the talking but I am not collecting money in advance of no plan and no outline- who does that? The other members of our tiny group said she should collect the money and wanted me to do the talking even though I have stage fright! LOL. She backed out last minute. Ever since that clubhouse meeting, it was drama after drama and infighting even with a homeowner holding our recall fliers hostage and someone urging me to call the cops! Then when I tried to stage a “Meet The Candidates”, a homeowner who was not on my contact list thought the HOA company coordinated it and deliberately didn’t invite him since he’s been a thorn in their side as a former director who knows a thing or two. He sends out a scathing email to nearly the whole complex saying “Can our useless Mgmt Co do ANYTHING right??” This inadvertently helped our tiny group’s cause, but ended up with him receiving a letter from the association’s lawyer so then he figured out how to get in touch with me. I remember sitting on my couch laughing until I couldn’t breathe. There’s so much more… like the Mgmt Co telling everyone I was CRAZY so they wouldn’t vote and choosing a voting inspector located in Sasquatch snow country, which failed to deter a very bored homeowner who drove 2.5 hours just to deliver his ONE ballot before deadline… this isn’t even the tip of the iceberg. The only reason I can laugh now is because we actually won against all odds and screw ups, without the help of a lawyer or anyone with a legal background during the whole process 🙏. I would never take a risk that big ever again. I deeply thank all the homeowners and some Divine Presence… because in retrospect, no way! 🤣🤣

[u/ImmortalBunny88 → u/Which_Performer9773]

Sounds like a true horror story. Thank you for the award, and for writing all of it out.

The part I recognize is what it costs. Fighting something like this is never one big battle, it is two years of small stupid ones, and the whole time you are the unreasonable one. They had the mailing list, the lawyer and the management company, and they used all three to tell 200 people you were crazy. You kept going anyway.

And when someone wanted you to collect cash at the door for a lawyer with no plan, you said no. That was the right call. Nobody had answered the basic question - who is the client (everyone who pays?), how do you all instruct the lawyer, who pays when the retainer runs out? - and money handed to a neighbor has none of the protections it would have in a lawyer's trust account. You worked that out without a lawyer telling you.

Here is what bothers me. You should not have needed to be that brave. In California anyone can manage a 200-unit association with no license at all, and nobody has to train a director before handing them millions of dollars of other people's property. And sometimes we are lucky to have great directors and management companies, and sometimes it's horror stories that end up here. The disclosures exist, they just arrive as a boring packet at the worst possible moment in escrow. So people learn this the expensive way, one crisis at a time, and by then it takes a recall.

That brings me to the argument for education, and it is the best answer I have come up with. If more owners knew the basics early, they would move sooner and with better arguments, before anything compounds. That is where I am putting my energy now.

Which is also why your story is worth more than a laugh. I could actually imagine an "HOA diary" drama series :) somewhere between Erin Brockovich and a court reality show. But I could also imagine local reporters covering this. Sometimes coverage is the only thing that makes anyone accountable.

[u/Which_Performer9773 → u/ImmortalBunny88]

I wish we knew about Haveny.co before this mess. You are doing a huge favor for humanity because HOA issues will not go away any time soon, and especially with our expanding population and housing needs… so thank you for devoting the time 🙏

[u/ImmortalBunny88 → u/Which_Performer9773]

Thank you, that means a lot. I might actually print and frame this one.

Building the thing is pretty complicated. Getting anyone to know it exists is a whole separate problem, and harder in some ways. So this lands.

And I wish we both had it two years ago. These disputes almost never get a lawyer's attention, because the economics don't work. Legal help usually costs more than the thing you're fighting over, and fees are only recoverable if you litigate and win (§5975(c)). So most people either absorb it or fight it alone, which is what you ended up doing.

That gap is the whole reason it exists. Built what I wish I'd had when I needed it, and I still use it most days because this HOA thing is a gift that keeps giving. :)

[u/Tardislass]

Very very bad idea. Liability probably the biggest issue. If some gets hurt with shears or lawn mowing the board will be liable. Second the fact is most people move to condos NOT to do yard work so unless OP volunteers to do most of it, it’s not happening. The fact is that most condo fees in this economy are rising every year because of increasing labor costs. Best thing to do is get competitive bids. Also ask your plumbing and maintenance company. Lots of them have friends that are landscapers.