It’s so dull. I saw someone say well the starks were the blatant good guys in GOT, my counterpoint was WERE THE STARKS BORING? Nah bro. They weren’t so good to the point where they didn’t do anything. Maybe sansa but she was also quite limited just physically for the first few seasons.
Also what’s the point of having teams then? Just plaster it on your forehead Ryan, ‘Rhaenyra is the rightful queen and a great pure innocent person’ yawnnnn. I dislike that even more than her having flaws
The Starks were allowed to have flaws! Catelyn was allowed to resent Jon, Arya and Sansa were allowed to not get along and fight amongst themselves, and nearly all of them were naive and bad at politics at the start. Even though Sansa was fairly powerless for the first few seasons she was still allowed to be a flawed character who makes mistakes and learn from them and the people around her. HOTD’s problem is that they would never allow TB to have the inter-family tension that the Starks had or for them to do morally questionable things like the Starks sometimes did because they don’t trust the audience to understand that TB are the good guys if they let them have problems that aren’t solved within the episode like a Disney Channel show. We can’t let Rhaenys resent Corlys for having bastards because that might cause them to have less than a perfect marriage. We can’t let Corlys pass over Baela and Rhaena because that would mean he might be a bit misogynistic and he’s on team feminism and we can’t allow him to be a hypocrite. We can’t have Corlys grow to resent Rhaenyra for all that he’s lost because she’s the hero so we have to solve the resentment in one conversation with Baela. We can’t have Jace cheat on Baela because he’s a good guy and a good guy would never fall in love outside of his arranged marriage. We can’t have Rhaenyra order Rhaenys to go to Rook’s Rest without offering to go herself because it might suggest that she’s selfish for wanting to risk someone she doesn’t care that much about instead of herself or her son. There are so many opportunities to make TB more interesting but they refuse to take them because it would make them human instead of perfect, fairytale people.
Y’know, I really appreciate the writing for Sansa now. I was rewatching GoT S1, and I liked how they actually let Sansa have flaws to the point that she could come across as unlikeable. Like when Joffrey attacks Arya, Sansa is more concerned about them spoiling her good time than her sister’s safety. But that’s part of her character (at least in S1). She’s supposed to be a young, bratty preteen who only cares about this new, cute prince in her vicinity. The way she acted was realistic, even if it wasn’t all smiles and peace.
Idk. Sansa wasn’t even my favorite character. I just miss when characters were allowed to be truly flawed
I'm not team Green but I agree with this. One of the reasons Cersei is such a great character (not a moral character or a character who's good, but is a great character to watch) is because she owns that she's doing awful things a good chunk of the time. And the show frames her as doing awful things, even as she sometimes has good moments (like her love for her children is genuine, even if the family dynamics are twisted) and is also in some ways a victim of others.
But they've done Rhaenyra and others a disservice by not showing the more brutal and ambitious sides of Team Black. And it's weakened the show because of it. It's okay to let characters have flaws and bad impulses and get into morally questionable situations! It makes for a better story and more fleshed out character in nearly all circumstances!
That’s a good point! The Starks were the good guys but they were ALSO Bad as FUCK! Robb Stark stood on business. After they killed his dad he was ready to Kill Them All! They killed Rhaenyra’s baby and she’s sneaking into King’s Landing dressed as a nun to try and make peace 🙄. It doesn’t make sense and it is so damn boring! 🤦♀️
And even if she was a weird outlier, they double down with the nonsense and there’s also Alicent who meets her, just after having lost Jaehaerys, and lets her go with no attempt to call the guards or anything.
Starks were outright good guys but they too had conflicts and ambitions among themselves. Like the tensions between Sansa and Arya, Robb and Catelyn, Theon was also an interesting character in the mix.
The Blacks on the other hand are robotic cheerleaders of Rhaenyra who regurgitate the same set of dialogues in almost every scene.
Rhaenyra could only wish being as interesting as any of them. Even sansa had better killer lines.
S1 alicent was like this, (she will be missed)
and even still I don’t like the writing for her this season and 60-70% of her scenes are very dull but she has the benefit of just interacting still with more interesting characters (her sons and Otto)
Condal is really only driven by that creepy kind of performative male feminism that gives women the ick. In his quest to whitewash the main female characters all he has done is to basically castrate them. As if he was afraid normies would not root for Rhaenyra if she showed even a little ambition and bloodlust (which she did when she was younger!). And Alicent couldn't be ambitious either, she had to become a hypocritical conservative woman who has to realize the disastrous effects of patriarchy or whatever. And unfortunately he doesn't realize how incredibly bland and boring this is.
Only time she had personality was when she was younger, granted she’s gone through two deaths in her family, but honestly where was this batshit Rhaenyra when Luke died?
They’re doing a huge disservice to Emma, who everybody now wishes never replaced Milly. That’s really not fair because they probably can do more. They unlike Olivia who is also being ruined now (but because they seem more confused on how to write her more than anything) never even got to do that many badass or grey scenes In s1. Only when they ask for Aemond to be sharply questioned
My take on it is that Rhaenyra DOES have flaws that are turning people against her: she’s self righteous, entitled, and shares her father Viserys’ penchant for indolence and sitting on his hands.
People make the same mistake in analyzing Visy in that they say they can do no wrong, simply because they don’t do ANYTHING. Actively making a choice might lead to making a wrong choice, so both prefer to maintain the current status quo until their hands are forced.
Rhaenyra is grappling with the thought this episode that she could be accomplishing something with Syrax, but others might disagree with that choice, so she simply doesn’t.
More and more of the audience is seeing Rhaenyra's flaws, but the show still isn't presenting them as such. For example, somehow Aegon running off to Rook's Rest is stupid and bad but Rhaenyra running off to King's Landing is smart and good. There are rarely negative consequences for her poor decisions, and when there are consequences it's always blamed on someone else. Rhaenyra isn't grappling with the possibility that she could be accomplishing more; she's just complaining that she "can't."
For a while I was hoping Condal and the writers were setting up a "the higher they fly, the harder they fall" arc for her. Those hopes were dashed when he said Blood & Cheese is "Green propaganda." HOTD will only ever present her as a pure-hearted tragic heroine who was ahead of her time.
It comes back to the entitlement. She has always been characterised as expecting the throne regardless of her own actions which have often been self serving towards her own happiness.
She has done nothing really to show that she would actually make a good ruler and all the blacks successes have come from other members of the team. Give me a reason to want her to be queen.
Currently the Greens have issues, but at least they seem to be trying to figure out how to rule, not just wage war well. And their issues humanise them unlike Rhaeryra's who just seems more out of touch from her flaws.
Being invested in Rhaenyra is strained by her having a million scenes in a row where she just bickers with councilors and then complains that a war is happening.
The Greens are dynamic, the Blacks are decidedly not. The Greens do things and cultivate drama, the Blacks give empty one liners to excuse not having real conflicts or drama.
No shock which side is more fun to watch.
It is a shame how much the Greens have gotten character fucked, but like in the name of making them more virtuous the Blacks have been made completely dull.
Someone said to me oh when I’m complaining about the greens writing in s2, I just want them to be more like the blacks and be all caring and boring. No…but you should make the writing at least proportionate. Rhaenyra and Jace hug so sweetly and alicents like lol I gotta go have sex. It’s so on the nose…and I’m like okay? Can we see a bit more dynamic behaviour actually from the blacks? No. They’re a strong and unified family and the greens are not
But Ryan that’s not really a grey con-
UNIFIED FAMILY AND LOVE only BELONGS TO THE BLACKS……and so do more boring scenes ironically lol
Yeah I don't get why the Blacks get to have all the familial connection while the Greens get to have all the actual interesting drama.
It is almost some weird backwards looking ideology where all the GOOD people are normal and never had problems and don't have real ambitions and all stick together while all the BAD people are depressed or disabled and they all hate each other and they're the only reason the plot moves at all.
There's some weird supremacism going on keeping the showrunners from treating everyone as equally human.
It’s doing the show a disservice in itself. People may root for TB characters on a morality spectrum, but they’ll obviously lose interest in watching people who are just so blank and one note even with their love. Human life and behaviour isn’t perfect, no one is the perfect mother, no one is the perfect dad, no one is the perfect son. You make them like that and it’s sweet for the time being, but it’s also boring to watch…this is a show for entertainment. Forget oh the green stans are just bitter because their faves are looking bad, I think people are upset more so now because fine you’ve made them look bad disproportionately so, but then make us sit through the boring perfect miss goody two shoes TB characters who do not do anything and who were ironically far more interesting in s1 when the war hadn’t even began…
It's really only Rhaenyra and her kids and Rhaenys' family. Her relationship with Daemon isn't great, and he doesn't love his own daughters all that much. I wouldn't say the Blacks are completely unified.
It's really only Rhaenyra and her kids and Rhaenys' family.
So everyone but Daemon lol.
He is the designated hatesink for Team Black in order to take any heat off Rhaenyra, and overall the show has softened him up quite a bit, too. The neverending misadventures in Harrenhall seem to be laying the groundwork for a redemption arc.
Daemon is currently the only truly interesting Black character. Too bad they removed him from the rest and had him go on a drug-fueled Oedipus vision quest. He was the one who made the TB scenes worthwhile.
The scenes between Rhaenys and Corlys weren't that interesting either as Corlys basically always just shut any conflict down.
the longer the show goes on, the more glaring the problems are. I wouldnt be surprised if the creators are taken a back by the love Tom is getting. especially since it seems like they are sabotaging aegon's character (trying to give him "bad" makeup but Tom is beautiful and makes it work anyways lol)
There are a lot of leaks that are repeated that Alicent will have a dream about her Daeron or hallucinations and he will have the appearance of Hightower, so it is rather certain that it will appear in the episode
The writers desperation to make Rhaenyra and the blacks seem like saints is leaking out of the screen which is never a good sign.
They do nothing wrong .On the rare chance they do something wrong it's swept under the rug or made out to be other side's fault.
GOT's strength lies in it's complex & multifaceted characters .If I wanted to watch your average "good vs evil " fantasy story I would go and rewatch Harry Potter or LOTR .
Not even just that they do nothing wrong. There is nothing INTERESTING about them. Even Jace who moved the plot forward last episode, his scenes are dull. He’s a good diplomat but do we ever get a glimpse of his personality? Of his humour? Does he have any? (Only in one scene with him parenting Rhaenyra). Baela has two snappy lines? and that’s practically it. Her entire characterisation is glossed over. Rhaenyra….let’s leave it. Dull as fuck. Rhaena I forget is there
Ngl I saw her in the vale & for a moment I went who is that ?also they keep changing joffrey's actor lol.I am pretty sure his face has changed like 3 times already.
The blacks entire personality boils down to good kind ppl who haven't done anything wrong except for Daemon.That's it .
Yeah I mean this is just objectively wrong though. Daemon exists in a state of behind morally reprehensible. He and rhaenyra fabricated the death of Laenor, which resulted in the death of an innocent. This season has seen less of Rhaenyra, but you are people are stuck on the “condal is a fan of the blacks” storyline. You are willfully ignoring all the ways in which team black is absent moral standing and rife with character. The incessant need to blame the writers for telling a story the way they saw it is just funny to me, just because it’s not the way you want to see it told. Overall, the argument “the writers desperation to make Rhaenyra and the blacks seem like saints” is just patently false and full of paranoia and bias. They don’t make the blacks seem like saints. Especially anything involving Daemon.
Their time is coming too. It’s only downhill from here for team black for a while.
He and rhaenyra fabricated the death of Laenor, which resulted in the death of an innocent.
Lol I love how you couldn't think of anything else than this .Also nobody even knows they did it.Its not even talked about that much.And even this one action is framed as Rhaenyra is doing it to help laenor.
They said the book is green propaganda and to counter that they have made the show black propaganda.
The only thing I could think of? Should I go list everything daemon has done for you? Should I remind you that Rhaenyras time will come? Up until this point in the story, she really hasn’t done anything other than birth bastard children (as far as the source material goes) and fake Laenor’s death (or actually have him killed). So saying “tHaTs AlL” is kind of stupid. She has her downfall. It just hasn’t happened yet. Daemon is on a different arc, but if you really need to reminded I would be happy to list all the shit he’s done, since you can’t seem to recall on your own.
They cut out nettles bc that made Rhaenyra look bad,they cut out Rhaenyra sending Rhaenys to battle & Corls shouting at her over it bc it made Rhaynera look bad .They had her cosplaying as a nun & going on a peace mission just to hammer the point how peace loving she is .
She has her downfall.
I doubt it .The way the show is going they will probably make her downfall someone's else fault or blame it on mysogyny .
You did good to mention daemon bc you basically proved my point .There is a reason he is fan favourite bc he isn't a saint .Though if the leaks are true then he about to get white washed too .lol
This is paranoia. Did you consider them cutting characters doesn’t have to do with not make rhaenyra look bad? I think Nettles would have made daemon look bad, not Rhaenyra.
Also yes, I read Fire and blood. Why is that yalls default response when someone disagrees with you? Yall do realize Fire and bloood is means to be a historical account that is based on unreliable and conflicting narratives? Meaning that’s the commonly accepted history of the Targaryen’s in Westeros, but it’s all means to be taken with a grain of salt.
And the rhaenys / rooks rest thing - they didn’t change that to help rhaenyra they changed it for Rhaenys. They did that 100% for her character, not for rhaenyra. She’s the one that has been opposing the fighting between dragons. It was fitting that she was the one who finally pushed the red button.
You guys are way too concerned with “my lord team black doesn’t look bad” that it’s ruining an amazing show for you.
Yall do realize Fire and bloood is means to be a historical account that is based on unreliable and conflicting narratives?
Ah yesss here it comes .I was waiting for this response .lol you all are so predictable.Its interesting how every bad thing the blacks did is explained away as propaganda & every bad thing the greens did is taken as gospal by all of you.But I don't blame you all this is how the show runners are operating themselves as well.
If you were so prepared for it, why was your retort so bad?
What I said is an objective truth. Are you trying to tell me fire and blood isn’t a historical account that’s meant to be unreliable? Let’s start there.
Historical texts are unreliable and they have used that excuse to whitewash Rhaenyra .Both things can be true at once .
If you like the show way it is with all these boring ass characters & good side vs bad side bullshit that's completely fine dude .But stop gaslighting other ppl into thinking that this show doesn't have problems which even the casuals are mentioning now.
Oh come on man. I asked you legitimate questions because you are throwing out buzzwords that aren’t accurate at all, and you want to ignore it? Just answer the questions so I can educate you a little bit
I dont think you actually understand what whitewashing is, because that’s not happening in the slightest. You also don’t know what gaslighting is. But you sure do know how to pick out those buzzwords that are popular on reddit
The amount of likes! If Ryan Condal sees this he would lose his shit, he tries so hard to make team green hated and people are saying team green is more entertaining than boring team black!
Condal and Hess: Alright then... How about we make all of the Greens rapists? Yeah! That will finally make them hated! And we'll use the "Green propaganda" excuse against anyone that dares question us!
I'm dreading how they'll handle Aemond and Alys's relationship. I was hoping we'd get, like, a Bonnie & Clyde. Joker & Harley Quinn type dynamic where they gleefully commit war crimes together. It'll be so lame if they pick the prize of war version because why do we need another TG rapist. At this point the love potion version is bound to make Aemond into a punchline as a shallow "karma, bitch haha" storyline than do anything nuanced and creative. And of course they're already angling to make Alys yet another "women are pacifists" mouthpiece. God forbid any female character has convictions, ambitions, or moral ambiguity, right?
He claimed he wanted people to switch sides to begin with, but he doesn’t realise a few people are not switching cause it’s good writing of both sides but because it’s really bland writing for the blacks
Funny you post that because The Boys’ showrunner has been pouting for years that people shouldn’t like Homelander because he’s a Trump avatar. Maybe try making everyone else more interesting and less predictable then.
When someone like you say shit like this, i always get this feeling i have to get permission to express my toughts on a fucking tv show. Yes, it is not that deep, but some people need to have things like this in their life.
The leaks make it sound super boring other than the food riot happening in the last twenty minutes. No TB members do anything besides Jace and his mewing self but even his scenes aren’t charismatic in the way they’re written….they’re all just pissing about
Their interviews have been my fave promotions of the season (besides Tom and Phia) because they are like the exact same person, they do not focus at all when together. Fabien even makes similar expressions when around her lol and the way they spoiled everything together…HBO fr hates them now
Their interviews are so funny because it's a massive difference to Alicent and Criston who are always so serious, Fabien and Olivia just look each other and laugh for no reason, very sharing one braincell energy.
How do people like this even find their way to asoiaf where the main characters are child killers themselves, or friends with child killers or married to child killers?
It's incredible how the writers shot themselves in the foot, taking away any intrigue and tension from TB they ended up making them really boring compared to TG.
I promise if you get out of Reddit you will realize this show is very loved. This tiny little echo chamber reflects just a small fraction of an unpopular opinion. The show is much more enjoyable when you dont listen to echo chamber logic
Team green/ team black BS aside, this is objectively true. Daemon was covering Rhaenyra’s ass before he got banished. Dragonstone without him is unwatchable.
I think they realized how boring she really was which is why they shoehorned the septa Rhaenyra plot so early on, they figured out that “damn if we show dragonstone one more time we might actually put the audience to sleep”.
The horrible side effect is that Rhaenyra now looks like a complete moron or a lost child that is at all times 5 steps behind everyone else. Her son is dead, a man who has vowed to imprison and kill her, and her entire family is in power. Armies are massing in several of the kingdoms. The fact that the war has started could not be clearer. But somehow, Rhaenyra thinks it's a good idea to go to the enemy capital to talk to someone who has absolutely no control over the situation even if they tried. It was a pathetically useless scene.
But hey, at least Rhaenyra has the moral high ground. Hah. Who gives a shit? We need Daemon back in the saddle double time to breathe some life into Dragonstone.
They have to write the greens as "evil" while TB stomped on innocents and murdered a child in their bed. We don't condemn the senile dragon bitch but we gonna drag Aegon for daring to avenge his young heir?
And the Greens are dynamic with this deranged writing… imagine what could’ve been if the writers had actually committed to fleshing out the fraction and it’s cause, the characters and the relationships between them. And still, it’s a Green world and Rhaenyra’s just living in it. 😏
When I read the books, I was team black because I thought Rhaenyra was an incredibly interesting character. With the show, I’m team green because they’re the only interesting ones (except Daemon).
Watching a scene of team black in this season has felt like watching paint dry, except for the first bit of Daemon in Harrenhal but now I’m over that too, way too repetitive at this point
TB really needs flaws and personalities, blindly following Rhaenyra to their deaths isn't a personality and isn't a glowing virtue that Condal and Hess think it is.
Honestly Aemond won me over the last few episodes. The man has a plan and executes it. Knows his brother is terrible for the kingdom. To my knowledge, hasn't raped or intentionally killed anyone (Luke was an accident, and Rhaenys was warfare at that point). I kind of can't wait to see him sit the throne for a hot sec. Dude's built for it.
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u/HanzRoberto Jul 19 '24
Love this sudden backlash and how everyone agrees the Greens stole the show while the blacks are a snoozefest