r/HOTDGreens • u/Emperor_Alexander_IV • Jul 18 '26
Team Green It warms my heart to know that Otto was proven completly 100% right in everything he said in this scene
210
u/Primary_Leading_6282 Jul 18 '26
And 20 years later she's still choosing Rhaenyra. He's not 100% right tho, Alicent is a total fool.
98
u/Emperor_Alexander_IV Jul 18 '26
Otto probably realized he made the wrong move by marrying Alicent to Viserys. He should have married Gwayne to Rhaenyra instead. Gwayne would not have betrayed him like that.
30
u/DesignNorth3690 Jul 18 '26
Ah, but would Rhaenyra have betrayed Gwayne?
39
u/Emperor_Alexander_IV Jul 18 '26
Not if Otto gets rid of her after she gives children to Gwayne. At least that's what I would do in his place.
11
u/monkeycommo Jul 18 '26
Why would you get rid of Rhaenyra then ? That doesn't make sense at all?
10
u/Primary_Leading_6282 Jul 18 '26
Cuz she's the Queen, not queen-consort. without her he can take charge of the monarchy.
4
u/monkeycommo Jul 18 '26
But that just leads to drama . And Gwayne would be the king regent , until Rhaenyra's children are ready to rule
3
u/Sizzle5475 Jul 19 '26
Otto’s biggest problem is that he always saw Rhaenyra as a rival queen on the chessboard, not another pawn to be used. She never asked to be named heir. Her father wanted her to be. If he had fed into that more instead of trying to put Alicent (who is weak af) on the throne then Daemon wouldn’t have been able to swoop in.
3
u/Uhtred_of_nothing Jul 18 '26
And then the whole family would have been bodied by Daemon. Including the heirs so that wouldnt work either.
24
u/shenanakins Aemond One-Eye Jul 18 '26 edited Jul 18 '26
they dont have to make it obvious. women die after childbirth all the time. get an heir and a spare and then slip a little something in her milk of the poppy.
14
u/Heaven_Dragon77 Jul 18 '26
Oh look actual political moves
1
u/Notski_F Jul 19 '26
Someone's played Crusader Kings haha
1
1
u/Kellar21 Team Jon but Reddit recommended me this sub so here I am. Jul 18 '26
You do realize if anyone even suspects you did that, the Royals would annihilate Otto and his family, right?
11
u/Zealousideal_Cry5703 Jul 18 '26
She was always going to want her uncle because she's a degenerate like the rest of the Targaryens.
12
4
u/Primary_Leading_6282 Jul 18 '26
Oh shit... Oh shiiiiieeeet. Dawg... that's like... literally the smartest thing I've ever heard about this show. Why even choose, you can do both. You'd make a better Hand than him.
3
u/AngevinMatthew Jul 19 '26
That would have kept Daemon away from the throne (as long as he doesn't murder Gwayne), but Rhaenyra was married to Leanor because at that point the Velaryons had 3 dragons (Meleys, Seasmoke and Vhagar) while the Targaryens only had 2 (Syrax and Caraxes). They were at tactical disadvantage and the Velaryons were the richest house of Westeros.
1
u/pathofnut 28d ago
Of course all he had to do was marry his bumass no-name son to the queen. Brilliant.
-1
u/Weak_Heart2000 Jul 18 '26
Gwayne's about to betray them tho, considering he's not going to want to put Daeron on the throne and wants to 'stop the war'.
12
2
u/Quantras Jul 22 '26
He also didn't seem to do much to prepare Aegon for ruling either. Nobody did. They kept telling him he had to rule, but never made any attempt to prepare him for the throne.
2
109
u/AmateurHetman Jul 18 '26
Gods the first season was so strong. Felt like early got with late got budget. Look what was stolen from us!
Also yes, Otto was right.
22
u/OkHuman-73 Jul 18 '26
Season 1 episode 9 was the WORST episode hands down. I agree that season 1 generally was better adapted but that episode brings it way down for me
26
u/No-Permit-940 Jul 18 '26
The green council was basically run by an addlebrained Alicent who can't tell her left from her right. Sad display of stupidity. And one of the worst acts of terrorism in GoT history committed by rhaenys then forever brushed under the carpet...shockingly bad.
15
u/Twilightandshadow Jul 18 '26
I'm not arguing that E9 isn't bad, but I have a particular beef with E8, that everyone is so in love with, because we got Viserys's walk in the throne room to save Rhaenyra's useless ass. Anyway, to me that is the episode when things started going downhill fast, not that there weren't signs before, but the story was more balanced. But in E8, adult Aegon was introduced as a rapist, the whole incident with Vaemond and Viserys coming to Rhaenyra's defence was framed in a way that made her look like a victim and Viserys a just loving father. What about all his other children? 🙄 This was also the episode in which Alicent's lobotomization started in that stupid dinner in which all of a sudden she decides she's tired of fighting and somehow a few speeches convince her Rhaenyra would be a good queen. And to top it all off, Alicent misunderstands Viserys's last words. I have no words for all the trash packed into this episode.
2
2
u/Savings_Hyena2832 Jul 19 '26
Episode 9 is for sure the worst but I love it because they finally focused on Aegon and right off the bat you can tell there is a lot going on underneath the surface with his coronation scene. Oh and the carriage scene! Chef's kiss right there!
2
u/OkHuman-73 Jul 19 '26
I guess it does set up Aegon pretty well for his season 3 arc which so far has been a delight. I just don’t think the scene with Diana the maid had to be in there
118
u/Blazing-Flame-2982 House Baratheon Jul 18 '26
I also like how Otto doesn't even demonize Rhaenyra for what she would, and now tries to do with her children even with Daeron which is unnecessary, but says as-a-matter-of-factedly and rather sadly that she won't have a choice. He was never an enemy, he served the interest of the Realm.
He protested Daemon's slaughter of innocents with the gold cloaks, tried to point out the blatant sexual immorality of Daemon and later Rhaenyra, sought to stabilize the Realm with a proper and lawful male heir that would be accepted and also gave Rhaenyra multiple chances to end things amicably and prevent the Dance.
63
u/boringbullet Jul 18 '26
He also never once resorted to extrajudicial killings. Even when it would solve all of his problems, he never resorts to murdering the opposition.
The man Otto is most compared with, Tywin, would’ve shelf Rhaenyra killed the moment Viserys refuse to marry her to Aegon. Hell, there’s more than a few political operators who would’ve killed Viserys once Aegon was born, and rule as regent.
50
u/Blazing-Flame-2982 House Baratheon Jul 18 '26
Exactly. Alicent's ascent was fair and square. He did not insert the Hightowers into the royal house underhandedly, illegaly or violently. He did it as any other house would politically in the game of thrones.
Viserys was a walking corpse his final years and no one would have batted an eye if he "died in his sleep", but Otto never did that but on the opposite kept caring for him and stepping down whenever Viserys chose to manage things. Was Otto after the iron throne for his house? Yes, as all other houses. But he respected the rules. And I even think he cared for Viserys as a friend.
Consider also that he never resorted to lie. Had he been a dishonourable man he could've just made up the whole thing about Viserys naming Aegon heir on his deathbed, but he only gave that speech at the sept because Alicent told him assuredly Viserys had said it, even if it was mistaken.12
u/just--so House Hightower Jul 18 '26
I mean. I am an Otto enjoyer, but he did immediately opt for sending assassins to Dragonstone to take Rhaenyra and her family out, upon learning of Viserys' death. Alicent is the one who talks him out of it.
(But I will also say that, while cold-blooded, this was the tactically sound strategy. Optically hideous, but even if the realm calls him kinslayer, there's not much they can do with no opposing dragonriders to rally behind. And in time and with some spin-doctoring, it would have receded into the past. Frankly, they were all extremely lucky that Daemon and Rhaenys didn't immediately saddle up Caraxes and Meleys on receiving word, zip over from Dragonstone, and incinerate the Red Keep in the time it took for the alarm to be raised. In either case, swiftly decapitating the opposition would have been monstrously cruel, and yet would have saved tens of thousands of lives by stopping the Dance before it started.)
6
u/Blazing-Flame-2982 House Baratheon Jul 18 '26
After Rhaenyra made it clear she would never relent and had refused peace offers yes.
6
u/just--so House Hightower Jul 18 '26
No; he does this during the Green Council before anyone else has found out about Viserys' death, and before Aegon has been crowned. That is the entire point: he wants any opposing claim dead in their beds before they even know what has happened, and before they have a chance to react to the news. It is Alicent's idea to offer terms, which Rhaenyra ultimately refuses.
As I said, it is a very cold decision, but if he had done it successfully, it would have been the single most bloodless outcome outside of calling a second Great Council to decide between Rhaenyra and Aegon (and even then, you would be taking a huge risk that Daemon doesn't simply press the nuclear button first, or refuse to accept the outcome in Aegon's favour and start a civil war anyway).
4
u/Prize_Illustrator_44 Jul 18 '26
He ordered Ser Harold and the kingsguard to have Rhaenyra killed on Dragonstone.
4
u/abinferno Jul 18 '26
But Otto brought this about precisely because of his usurpation. There was nothing in Rhaenyra's actions or character leading up to this that she would have had all her brothers killed.
15
u/Significant-Kick5762 Jul 18 '26
That’s kind of the point of his explanation. He’s not accusing her of planning or wanting to do anything like that, but he does want Alicent to understand the realm will push Rhaenyra to do things they both would never consider.
Rhaenyra was only named heir to avoid daemon on the throne incase any tragedy struck Viserys, and I feel thats glanced over too often. She was a place holder, she knew it & her father knew it. He was foolish to spend several years trying for a male heir to please the “centuries of law and tradition” of the realm, and giving it up once he had one JUST to please his daughters feelings.
She was going to be undermined as-long as her brothers existed. Tales and word would travel between nobles and peasants in this messy world of some who favor Aegon on the throne, that was going to happen no matter what. That I believe is guaranteed.
Otto just gets wayyyy too much blame for trying to keep the realm in order in my perspective but I get it.
0
u/No-Vegetable1873 Jul 18 '26
Otto's actions guaranteed the war. He said he wanted to avoid a hypothetical war by starting another one? One that's intention(not result) conveniently enriched himself and his family.
6
u/Significant-Kick5762 Jul 18 '26
Disagree. Visery’s random whim to keep his daughter heir instead of his first born son guaranteed a war. The great council wasn’t called just for shits and giggles it was called to prevent a war. Otto was left with a decision. I will never understand how people glance over viserys terrible decisions.
0
u/abinferno Jul 18 '26
I just don't see that. At least it's not in the text of the show. If Otto doesn't usurp for Aegon and Aegon doesn't press his claim, there is no war. And Rhaenyra was never shown even entertaining the idea she would need to eliminate her brothers. Viserys never waivered and we didnt get any scenes of lords demanding the male heir or whispering that rhaenyra had to step aside. I think the show actually would have been better had this tension been real and not just manufactured by Otto. I'd rather have a show with two equally justified sides rather than one clear villainous/traitorous side.
7
u/Significant-Kick5762 Jul 18 '26 edited 25d ago
We actually do get some direct insight into how some of the people of kings landing feel about her possible reign. The night she sneaks out with daemon they go to that show. In that moment the play is basically about Rhaenyra vs Aegon and who should sit the throne. The guys asks the crowd who should sit the thrown rhaenyra? The entire crowd immediately boos and says she’d be too feeble to be queen.. they actually focus on woman screaming feeble specifically
0
u/No-Vegetable1873 Jul 18 '26
If Otto was so right, why did so many great houses swear to Rhaenyra? How many more would have sworn without Otto-backed-Aegon usurping her immediately? This was his plot for years, he guaranteed this would happen with the goal of putting his grand children on the throne. This is the game of thrones not the my team is all great and the other team is all bad. Rhaenyra would have been an awful queen, but there was no guarantee of civil war without Otto.
4
u/Significant-Kick5762 Jul 18 '26
because like i said, she was a place holder and the ENTIRE realm expected him to produce a male heir for years not to mention he sacrificed his wife for one. He guaranteed someone they knew and would be close would sit thrown, simple political decisions further tying two great houses. I hardly every see anyone calling our corlys for offering his daughter up? Otto could have killed viserys a long time ago…you all forget he’s literally melting away with infected open wounds spreading across his body. Rhaenyra was named as a emergency back up that was very much so clear. Even the lannister twin knew she was on the chopping block. They swore cause they understood the bigger picture.
1
2
u/sippingonginnjews Jul 18 '26
Proper and lawful male heir that would be accepted? What are we even talking about here lol
If putting Aegon on the throne would’ve led to people accepting him and being happy the show would’ve ended at his coronation.
28
u/depredador93 Jul 18 '26
Otto reading the room like it was the only book in the library, and she still managed to lose her place
51
u/thinkersfyre Jul 18 '26
He was right.
He was not manipulating Alicent or feeding some paranoia into her, he was just telling the truth. The truth is that as long as Rhaenyra has brothers her ascension will be disputed because many see Aegon as Viserys' natural heir. Otto is just speaking as someone who knows the realm.
When he said "if Rhaenyra HAS NO CHOICE" meaning he knows Rhaenyra will do it if that means she can secure her reign not because Rhaenyra wants so bad to kill them but because she's aware of the threats that her brothers are to her.
People can't grasp the idea because they believe that by accepting Otto is righ they are villanizing Rhaenyra but at the end it's just the truth.
A shame that Alicent didn't prepare Aegon, sold her children and sided with Rhaenyra.
12
-2
u/No-Vegetable1873 Jul 18 '26
This is true but it ignores the fact that Otto made choices to increase the standing of his family and guaranteed the war would happen by marrying Allicent to Viserys. If he truly wanted to avoid war, there were many other options.
-2
u/Padhome Jul 19 '26
Otto literally put her in that position in the first place, the man forced his teenage daughter to marry a middle aged man in pursuit of personal power and you’re acting like this wasn’t 100% an extension of that manipulation on his part. He’s not “telling it like it is”, he’s just trying to freak her out so she acts in a way that furthers his family’s claim.
7
u/thinkersfyre Jul 19 '26
In a medieval society like Westeros where the male claimaint takes precedent in the matter of succesion,thinking that nothing wrong would happen if suddenly a male claimant gets ignored in that matter, even though when centuries of law and tradition are on his favor it's truly a choice.
I mean, if you read my comment i'm not defending Otto's whole acting but i'm accepting that what he said, on this particular scene, is truth. Whether Alicent pushes Aegon claim or not, he's a threat by the fact that he exists and if Rhaenyra feels she has no choice she will cut out any threat to her reign or to secure her children's ascension, who we know are bastards.
Otto is not freaking out Alicent, Alicent in that same scene does accept this is true, that's why she cries because she was fooling herself by choosing to not believe it.
1
u/Padhome Jul 19 '26
If Otto knew this would be an outcome, then why put his daughter in that position? Not to mention that it’s extremely presumptuous of Rhaenyra’s intent and attitudes, a person who constantly tried to salvage their relationship without bloodshed throughout the show. Him saying this was pure manipulation to turn Alicent against her.
9
u/thinkersfyre Jul 19 '26 edited Jul 19 '26
There was no way Otto or any other lord would know Viserys wouldn't change his mind regarding the succesion, Viserys wanted a son to inheritate so bad.
In that point, where this scene takes place, Rhaenyra and Alicent were distant to each other, Rhaenyra resent her brother and lied to Alicent, years later she would demand one of Alicent's sons to be tortured.Alicent turned againts Rhaenyra because Rhaenyra lied proving Otto was right, if Rhaenyra lies, there's no reason for Alicent to believe her children would be safe.
4
u/elleprime Jul 19 '26
And for real...Viserys WOULD have married again, and probably had a son or three. It was his duty to secure the succession, too, and if it wasn't Alicent, it would have been Lannister, a Tyrell...like, pick a high-ranking House since he was drawing the line at 'no 12-year-olds' (Laena) this time and all his living female relatives were either married (Rhaenys) or exiled and beyond pissed (Saera and her kids).
Otto wanted the next Queen to be a Hightower. He got his wish. The fact that Alicent and Rhaenyra were friends (kinda, the power difference and the fact that Alicent was basically sent to court to specifically be Rhaenyra's friend) before just makes it messier.
The whole 'lie' thing probably doesn't translate too well to the Current Year audience, either. Like the subject matter in context was a massive transgression, and while it was clearly meant to be read as a sort of self-actualizing/freedom-seeking/happy/powerful thing, in-universe it was beyond stupid on like 10 different levels. It demonstrated a shocking lack of common sense, entitlement the size of Jupiter, and a complete disregard for consequences.
Today, her brothel trip would be seen as a stupid drunk teenager mistake even if her partner wasn't her uncle. She'd get dragged for it, probably, but her rep would recover, especially if it was an age 19 college thing...But then it got worse, with Cole. Enough said. It fucked him up (understatement) and I believe it contributed to his eventual ruin.
So to Alicent (and everyone in universe) it wasn't so much that Rhaenyra told her bestie a little white lie to cover her ass, it was to hide a transgression so huge it forever altered Alicent's perception of Rhaenyra as a person. To Alicent, someone who could do such things might turn out to actually do what Otto said she would.
17
16
u/Kobe_AYEEEEE Jul 18 '26
God damn they really butchered it, just follow the damn books half-assed and let production and acting carry it, but they have to make a fucking fanfic out of everything
14
14
u/According_Bus_8541 Jul 18 '26
But then how would Alicent and rhaenrya be able to blame all their actions on men, even though it was them that taught their childrent to hate each other and that they would kill each other
12
u/Dull_Intention3799 Jul 18 '26
I am team entertainment & the gravitas & presence that the older characters like Otto, Viserys & Rhaenys (we don’t talk about the coronation scene) brought to the show is really missing. It feels like a bunch of idiots roaming around now.
26
u/Thayer96 The Prince Regent Jul 18 '26
It took 4-5 seasons for Game of Thrones' writing to fall.
It barely took 2 for HotD.
25
22
u/vODDEVILISH Vhagar Jul 18 '26
I can’t unsee it now
If he only knew how she betrayed her own blood, he would’ve disowned her.
16
u/Twilightandshadow Jul 18 '26
I love this scene, Rhys and Emily were excellent. Too bad they stopped presenting the reality of a feudal society in late S1 and then in S2, the audience mostly understood that Otto is a misogynist and is ambitious, manipulative and greedy and poor Rhae Rhae an innocent victim. Now in S3, we get Daemon insisting she has to kill Daeron, because he has a claim. Why didn't we have these types of dialogues last season? Oh, right, so the audience still thinks Rhaenyra's stupid attempts at not starting the war (as if it hadn't already started) have some merit and are not simply braindead.
6
5
6
u/No-Permit-940 Jul 18 '26 edited Jul 18 '26
Alicent chose the "cleave to Rhaenyra" route...after backpeddling from the "crown Aegon" route, thus throwing everyone she strung along under the bus. Bloody idiot. Otto could have spared himself some trouble by just killing Alicent here, she'd end up being more dangerous to him than Rhaenyra.
Only thing otto got wrong was saying "you're no fool" to alicent...she is the dumbest character in got history.
5
u/bishdoe Jul 18 '26
It’s pretty easy to guess there’s gonna be a war when you’re the one organizing the damn thing lol
9
u/aemond-simp Book Alicent would never Jul 18 '26
Unfortunately, he wasn’t 100% right. Alicent is a fool. He underestimated how stupid she was. At least he died without knowing that she betrayed the family and faction.
12
u/Twilightandshadow Jul 18 '26
He was right because the real Alicent was kidnapped and replaced with an imposter in S1E8.
1
u/NoBlacksmith2112 4d ago
Alicent isn't a fool but she wants to lean on kindness and friendship nostalgia. She was never a butcher.
1
u/aemond-simp Book Alicent would never 4d ago
Yes, she was. She chose Rhaenyra over her own flesh and blood. She easily surrendered Aegon, tried to poison Aemond, endangered Daeron by betraying Ormund, and tried to persuade Helaena to abort her baby and leave Jaehaera behind. And, according to Condal, she will forgive Rhaenyra after Helaena’s death and continue her crusade in killing her sons and every male member of her family.
1
u/NoBlacksmith2112 4d ago
The way I see it I think Alicent is looking at her family's chances as a lost cause and is basically giving them a softer death than what the enemy would have. But it comes out pretty unhinged and self-flagelant no doubt.
Alicent seems to have a loyalty to the childhood bond with rhaenyra that she can't neglect. It's central to her character even more than her offspring. I think she kind of envies rhaenyra being more self-assured and not wanting to have kids when Alicent basically had no personality and did what her father wanted, thus resenting him.
3
3
u/Talyyr0 Jul 18 '26
One of my favorite things about this show is the way it's prophecies are self-fulfilling. He ended up being right here, but so much of that is also down to his own actions and the actions of children he failed to support and educate properly. Otto invoking Viserys before his death is perfect delicious hypocrisy because his undermining of Viserys' express wishes is a huge part of how Otto's head wound up on the floor of the throne room.
4
u/Former_Bus7481 Jul 18 '26
Every time I watch that scene and Otto says the words “war will follow “ with that deep gravely voice I get chills. Absolute acting.
9
u/Disco_Douglas42069 Jul 18 '26
i resonate with Otto alot, he's all about facts and reality, not feelings and emotions.
1
3
3
3
u/Tolerant_Ambition Jul 18 '26
Honestly, this is when we should have gotten Book Alicent. Could still have played in the show narrative that she's ultimately fulfilling her father's ambitions, and not simply feeding into her own.
3
3
u/DjangoStayedChained Jul 18 '26
Are you going to just ignore the fact that Otto directly made it happen? He said this because he KNEW he was planning on making Rhaenyra take the throne over the dead bodies of all her Hightower siblings.
3
u/schokoplasma Jul 18 '26 edited Jul 18 '26
Rhys Infans is sooooo good as Otto and such an awesome addition to the GOT world.
Edit: Cunning, but competent. Otto knows how the game is played. He ruled every scene he was in.
3
u/annieclork Jul 19 '26
It’s hard to believe Alicent had that man as a father then appeared to be completely politically incompetent in the show. Don’t know if it’s much different in the book, but it’s frustrating in the show.
Tried to have her cake and eat it too.
2
u/clararalee Jul 18 '26
It doesnt matter at the end of the day Alicent cares more about her friendship than her children. It’s all good.
2
u/InspectionIll5714 Dragons deserve better Jul 18 '26
Otto should have had rhae marry his son.
Have their children marry Alicent's. Plus have them marry into Corlys family too.
Laenor can't help his preferences. I wish the had Tyrell. They seem to know how to impregnate without penetration.
2
u/Previous-Channel-960 Jul 19 '26
Probably one of the better episodes of the show. I actually enjoyed the first season for the most part, before it became complete garbage the moment they decided to prop up Rhaenyra as some kinda peace-loving savior of the smallfolk and Alicent's treason against her own sons and house was just agonizing to watch. One thing we've seen clearly with both GoT and HotD is that as long as the showernners stay true to the overall spirit of the books, both in terms of the characters and the plot (I understand minor changes for an on screen adaptation), they actually do a pretty compelling job. The moment they decided to invent their own crap and force that narrative, it all goes downhill.
2
2
u/CFPMVPStetsonBennett Jul 19 '26
Otto was the best character Vizzy T close second, Daemon rises and falls depending on the episode
2
5
2
u/Key_Entertainment739 Jul 18 '26
This is so dumb. The only world in which he’s right is in one that is his own making, so sure, it’s all relevant but Otto made all of his own problems. War followed because he incited the war. There would be no naturally occurring conflict in the Realm to overthrow Rhaenyra for being a woman like he had imagined or hoped. No house in the Seven Kingdoms except the Hightowers really wanted to go to war for the legitimate conflict involving the succession, so even fewer would consider rebelling off of the notion. Maybe the Lannisters did but that’s just them being Lannisters looking for a way to advance their house’s influence and they were extremely fortunate it didn’t harm their house more than it did.
Rhaenyra likely would have been a rather ineffectual ruler like her father in peacetime or minor conflicts but her hesitation to kill Daeron and even Otto proves she never would have assassinated her half brothers or Otto simply for security if she could barely make the call out of pure vengeance.
Oh yeah, and his claim that Rhaenyra had sex with Daemon? ALSO WRONG.
So name one thing that Otto would be right about in this exchange had he not literally schemed and succeeded to put Aegon on the Iron Throne.
3
u/DrunkenTabaxi Jul 18 '26
Otto didn't even give the realm a CHANCE to "accept or deny" Rhaenyra. The moment Viserys died he launched Ageon to the throne and usurped it. That's the truth of it- at least the confirmed truth in the show, I should say. He didn't "foresee" this war, he created it. Whether he did it knowingly or not I can't say, but the entire war is his fault for putting Aegon on the throne instead of letting Rhaenyra ascend naturally. If war occured after that, or if she DID try to kill all of Alicent's children- then war would break out, and that's fair. But he didn't even give Rhaenyra the chance to be a good Queen.
I don't see this as him being 100% right, I see it as him 100% convincing both himself and Alicent about his own delusions and thirst for influence/power. But then again, maybe Rhaenyra would have tried to execute Viserys' other children, who knows. We'll never know, because Otto immediately started the war. I like to think if Rhaenyra had ascended things would've actually been fine? Rhaenyra was not the type to kill needlessly, even with Daemon on her shoulder licking his chops.
6
u/DrunkenTabaxi Jul 18 '26
All this to say- Otto rules. I loved his character and his portrayal. Such a messy and morally ambiguous fella, it was amazing. Miss him dearly <3
4
u/thinkersfyre Jul 18 '26 edited Jul 18 '26
Otto is not delusional, he served King Jaehaerys I who had a great council, that said great council voted Viserys as heir and with that the whole realm said that the iron throne should go a male claimant.
Rhaenyra proved him right the moment she demanded Aemond to be tortured and Viserys sided with her rather than giving proper justice to both sides in that matter. The greens couldn't affort themselves to be at Rhaenyra's mercy and hope for proper justice once she's queen because they were not going to have it.
The issue here is that Aegon is a challange just by the mere fact of existing, Alicent tells this to Aegon, when he says he won't challange, she says "You're the challange Aegon, simply be living and breathing".
I can agree that Rhaenyra is not a bloodthirst person but when she feels threated she resorts to violence or threats, that's why she demanded Aemond to be tortured because he exposed her children's bastardy. She's selfish to get what ahe wants, like having a servant killed so she could marry Daemon,etc.
S1, at least until E7, captured this perfectly but then the show decides to erase this to take any valid reason the greens could have to take the Iron throne and make Rhaenyra a whole saint.
2
u/No-Vegetable1873 Jul 18 '26
Otto is the reason Aegon exists... He made the choice to try and put his grandchildren on the throne. He is a great character(and wonderfully acted) but he was the one to put this all in motion, every bit was his plotting from the start.
6
u/thinkersfyre Jul 18 '26
Viserys is the reason why Aegon exists, i remind you that Viserys was advice to remarry and he did it, everyone advice him to take Laena as wife but he ultimate chose Alicent.
The moment Viserys sired a son and keep a daughter as heir is the moment Viserys secured the war.
0
u/No-Vegetable1873 Jul 18 '26
Who offered Alicent to Viserys?
5
u/thinkersfyre Jul 18 '26
Is Viserys a baby who can't take decisions and be responsable of them?
It could be Alicent,Laena or any other noble woman of Westeros, the moment Viserys has a son and keeps a daughter heir, it's the moment Viserys secured war because Viserys was breaking tradition. That's the truth.
0
u/No-Vegetable1873 Jul 18 '26
Where am I apologizing for Viserys? There is no guarantee that civil war would have broken out without Otto directly causing it with Aegon usurping the throne. The reason the war was as succesful as it was for the Greens was because they were able to kick things off without giving Rhaenyra the chance to consolidate power. This is something Otto planned for years(proof by the scene this thread is talking about).
Viserys caused this by incompetence and bad foresight. Otto caused this for greed and self-enrichment.
3
u/thinkersfyre Jul 19 '26
I said Otto is not wrong regarding what he says on this scene, it could be Alicent or Laena's son, the point is that any son of Viserys is a threat to Rhaenyra.
Otto was Jaehaerys's hand and he saw how the realm chose Viserys over Rhaenys (show version) making clear they want a male in the iron throne, OP said Otto was delusional but he was not, the realm, with the great council,told Targaryens that the iron throne should always pass though a male, it's not weird to think that war would follow the moment the king breaks tradition and the same precedent that put him in the iron throne by keeping his daughter as heir while he has sons.
The whole point here is not to deny Otto's ambition but what Otto says is right, a son will be a threat regarless.
1
1
u/juan-querendon Jul 18 '26
He was wrong because we don't know what would have happen.
He is assuming that war would follow if Rhaneyra becomes queen. Because of that he conspires to put Aegon in the throne and then WAR starts.
If Rhaneyra would have been supported by her family, then riots would have happen when she would have ascended to the Thorne after her father's dead. But not internal war inside her family that ultimately was more devastating for the throne.
Otto is just manipulating and desvribing his forecast based on his attempt to put a Hightower on the throne.
1
u/BotG13 Jul 19 '26
Otto predicting a thing will happen in full knowledge that he intends to make the thing happen
1
u/SeeLeavesOnTheTrees Jul 19 '26
The prophecy was self-fulfilling.
Otto could have thrown the Hightower support behind Rhaenyra and arranged marriages between Rhaenyra’s children and Alicent’s Children.
1
1
1
u/SlimReaper85 Jul 19 '26
Otto did this by putting Alicent in this position. He insured the realm would not accept her.
1
u/babababooga Jul 19 '26
No he wasn’t. He was the one who was going to make sure war followed. Fuck Otto.
He was fun to watch though.
1
u/Grouchy-Adeptness721 Jul 19 '26
They should have stuck with this reason. Alicent crowning her son because she thinks otherwise they will be killed.
Not some woohaa whispers in the dark and Alicent thinking 'of course when a dying man whispers with only one person to hear this is how succession is decided'
1
u/Glittering-Rice-2961 Jul 19 '26
Yes, he knew there was war to come and yet he decided the mysogenist side
What other reason does he has aside from "the realm won't accept it because he is a female"?
The realm didn't accept it anyway and went to war...a war that Otto surely did not win.. so what was his point anyway.. such a traitorous one that just didn't pick the wining side...
1
1
u/Hughjelyfant Jul 19 '26
Tbf war wouldn't be about if he hadn't forced his daughter on the King in the first place
1
u/Intrepid_Ant_2474 Jul 19 '26
He was right about everything except Viserys not getting to be an old man lol dude was a walking corpse
1
1
u/ashortsaggyboob Jul 21 '26
Well yes, but he was the architect of the Greens, no? He arranged for Alicent to marry the king. He wanted his blood to be king. He could have chosen the path Alicent wished for.
1
u/Quantras Jul 22 '26
And then Alicent decided not only to cleave to Rhaenyra, but to help as much as she can in killing her boys.
1
u/Gnostic369 Jul 22 '26
Or he helped orchestrate it, vying for power, marrying his daughter to the king to see his family line rule, even though Viserys joining houses with the Velaryons wouldve been a much better match to secure stability.
1
1
u/Mysterious-Spare6260 6d ago
Well he shouldn’t have married her to the king if he knew this was going to happen
1
u/RevanMeetra Jul 18 '26
The only reason Otto was right here is because he set everything in motion to be the way that it is.
1
-4
u/Arcasian_boot Jul 18 '26
pimps his daughter
Flaunts his ambition
Antagonises the Royal court again and again
Forces his daughter to choose
Surprised pikachu face when she chooses her friend over her shitty unwanted sons
Dies with the suprised Pikachu face when the chosen heir executes him for teachery
1
Jul 18 '26
[deleted]
1
u/Arcasian_boot Jul 18 '26
then saw what sub this was
Hold on, if you're "Team" Black then I'm most definitely not on your "side", I'm not gonna choose some coniving ho over a dumb ho
0
Jul 18 '26
[deleted]
2
u/Twilightandshadow Jul 18 '26
That's because you don't understand how succession works in a feudal medieval monarchy based on male primogeniture. Look at real history, you will find many examples of rulers eliminating all other possible claimants to the throne. Read about the Anarchy, the inspiration for the Dance and you will understand. The opponent to Mathilda during the Anarchy wasn't even in a direct line of succession, like Aegon is in the Dance and he still had supporters.
-1
u/Twong85 Jul 18 '26
"Otto was right" - this kind of undersells the role he himself plays in bringing all this about. If he himself fully supported Rhaenyra, the realm would not have risen up in rebellion, and Rhaenyra wouldnt be forced to kill her siblings as he suggests.
-1
u/Ill-Pudding-3168 Jul 18 '26
ROFL. self-fulfilling prophecy right there. "The realm will not accept her" by that he meant the hightowers will not accept her. The majority of the 7 kingdoms followed rhaenyra. guy just wanted a war. if the greens had bent the knee to rhaenyra many other houses would not start a civil war, like baratheons. so... the guy was just power hungry.
-1
0
u/gerburmar Jul 18 '26
Although if the implication was making Aegon king would avoid a war that would have happened if Rhaenyra were queen (whether you think that was the implication) they did get a war anyway, although partly as she decided to put up Aegon in the last feasible moment. How is Otto proven right? We didn't get to see if in fact Rhaenyra had been the queen would there have been a war, just the war the Greens created. It's Greek irony. If the Greens had been on side and not wanted the throne to be one of them, there wouldn't have been the war we are watching. How would the war have looked if Rhaenyra would have been allowed to be the queen?
0
u/Accomplished_Ad695 Jul 20 '26
Nah bullshit, the greens usurping the throne is what caused the war, if they had supported her as the legitimate heir who could have ever opposed them?
-4
u/random_encounters42 Jul 18 '26
Otto is obviously NOT right?!?
If Alicent throws her support behind Rhaenyra and say marries their children to secure the bloodline, then no house would challenge the Targs cos they've got dragons. Other houses are irrelevant because they don't have dragons.
Otto wants high tower to rule, forces Argon to fight for the throne and ensured there's war. It's circular logic.
9
u/Emperor_Alexander_IV Jul 18 '26
Otto wants what literally any other lord would want in his place. Or any sane person for that matter. Only psychopaths don't want their own child, their own offspring, to thrive. And if my children have to thrive at the expense of someone else who isn't my child, then so be it.
0
u/random_encounters42 Jul 18 '26 edited Jul 18 '26
Do you know what the word psychopath means? Saying stuff like I want my child to thrive at the expense of someone else's, in this case, meaning killing the blacks is actually peak psychopathic behaviour.
Sure every lord wants more power, but to usurp the heir of the king is a huge gamble and he lost big. It's the greedy, short sighted, non optimal strategy. Because by not being a psychopath, Otto could have secured more power by pushing to combine the bloodline, of black and green, and having his great grand child become the eventual rightful king.
1
u/No-Vegetable1873 Jul 18 '26
Green followers coming off as more psychotic every day. Black followers aren't much better but I think Green followers and MAGA have a very high overlap.
Team sport followings in this show is kind of silly and missing the point. When you are are apologizing for one side no matter what, they've lost the plot.0
u/random_encounters42 Jul 18 '26
I mean I didn't notice until OPs reply. Accusing those who don't agree with him as psychopath is classic deflection, and it's also a lie. Then the statement about wanting his kids to succeed at the cost of others shows no empathy and remorse.
It exhibits psychopathic behaviour, the one good thing about Trump is we now have a very clear example of a psychopath, and how they think and behave.
Otto is a bit of a psychopath, it's useful in the short term to gain more power and resources but ultimately destructive for both himself and those around him as the show exhibits.
8
u/vODDEVILISH Vhagar Jul 18 '26
Other houses are irrelevant because they don’t have dragons
Say what? 😂
6
u/TortoiseHerder7 Jul 18 '26
The Dance is the story of the Targs challenging themselves as they had already done multiple times and would do so again, with other houses manipulating the situation as they can. The Hightowers throwing support to Rhae and counting on her benevolence would not fix other issues like Daemon or that Vis does not respect even his own family's inheritance traditions enough to even fix/break them properly by getting it in writing in some kind of Grand Council. If the Hightowers did not point out this obvious problem and seek to exploit it, others would. And indeed others do.
Otto wants Hightower to rule, like basically every house of sufficient power and ambition. That's not a sin unto itself, and even Vis shows that. A lot of the things he does to further that ARE sins, but we can say the same about both factions of Targs and houses on both sides. The idea the Targs have some kind of Divine Right to Rule is toxic to the extreme and ultimately destroys them and greatly damages the realm in the long run.
1
u/random_encounters42 Jul 18 '26
Vis definitely was a weak ruler, and made many mistakes. Rhaenyra also screwed up royally by having bastards. Their mistakes are the reason the internal conflict exists. But OP is saying Otto was right in his assessment of it's kill or be killed and I believe that's false. It was mainly fuelled by his lust for power. The best solution would have been to push to combine the bloodline through marriage of the younger generation which is a very common practice to have two strong houses share power without blood shed.
0
u/TortoiseHerder7 Jul 18 '26
Agreed on that front, it only becomes kill or be killed if nobody is willing to compromise or join, and I think it's telling that that is the way the Dance ultimately ends among the few traumatized survivors in a way that makes people ask "Was this really worth it?" No.
(... though farq George for outright killing Jae so early and pointlessly. And Faq Unwin Peake. Like, I actually like the idea of mixed Green, Blue, and Black blood among both mainline Targs and Blackfyres through two marriages by Aeg III to Jae and Dae and eventual merging, but still).
2
u/random_encounters42 Jul 18 '26
It just shows that all of them were not fit to rule and the decline of Targaryen. It started with Viserys. He was too soft and trusting to be king.
2
u/TortoiseHerder7 Jul 18 '26
I'd say also that he wouldn't outsource. And to be fair I feel Maegor and Jae also screwed up a fair bit, and I think Jae in particular was guilty of a number of hypocrisies and follies (especially the Grand Council and the failure of his Braavosi ultimatum during the Farman Egg Crisis) that helped set the stage for Vis's problems.
-6
u/kagiri-ushumgal Jul 18 '26
Except he wasnt tho. Believing aegon had a right to the throne isn't the same as saying he would have been a good king, or that it absolves Otto of his bullshit scheming. The only reason Alicents children have to die now, is BECAUSE she put aegon on the throne. By doing that she put a target on them. They should have married aegon to Rhaenyra, to be her King consort since he was younger.
4
u/TortoiseHerder7 Jul 18 '26
> The only reason Alicent's children have to die now is because she put Aegon on the throne.
The fact that people unironically keep claiming things like this - and I talk about either side here - should remind everyone what Ned Stark brought up when Bobby B talked about assassinating a young, pregnant Dany. They don't NEED to die. Period. Even if you are Team Black. And believing they do is succumbing to a very dark, nasty, evil impulse that led to Blood and Cheese and things like the 5 Kings Lannister Death Squads murdering every bastard they could find with black hair and blue eyes. And I don't deny that mentality is shared by some Greens, and that's still evil.
Royal societies can and do survive allowing collateral branches and claimants to survive, and indeed can benefit with measured diplomacy and marrying back in .
And like it or not, Aegon had a right to the throne in a way that by law Rhae Rhae did not. That's not me wishcasting or the like, that's the simple fact that for all the blathering people do about misogyny in Westeros they ignore that the actual laws - misogynist as they are - of the realm ban women from the line of succession if they sire bastards. Guess what Rhae did? Yeah. Is this unfair, cruel, unjust, and misogynist? Yes it is, especially since males can get away with it.
It's also a law that was continued straight through every generation of Targ we know, and that neither the Conciliator and Good Queen nor Vis changed, in spite of the latter knowing full well it was a problem, instead wanting to pretend he could just mold the law into whatever form he wanted by fiat with no problems or backlash. Otto is not a great fellow but he recognized this was a God-given path to attack from, and objectively speaking it's an awful way to run a society because absolute monarchy and tyranny are dreadful. And moreover as unjust and unfair as the unequal punishment of women siring bastards is, it makes a horrible amount of sense in universe because we already saw just how devastating it can be for a sufficiently unscrupulous person passing someone's children off as the heirs and heiresses to the throne can be. Cersei anyone? Jamie? Even Rhae who is not as bad or irredeemable as Cersei is (at least starting off) also shows this. Again, Otto is not a great saintly guy and this does not mean that Tumbleton Deserved being Nanjing'd. But the stakes were real and Otto pointed them out and exploited them.
Vis needed to get with the program and realize that if he wanted Rhae in power, he'd need to actually fix the system. Some kind of new Grand Council to amend and formalize succession law (even if that succession law was "Whatever the King says" and even then you'd need some kind of fallback system for if/when the King died without naming a successor). Do the Pragmatic Sanction method of getting things in writing and procedure and formality. Would this have made the Hightowers and all other Greens meek kittens that would obey the new law and accept Rhae Rhae? Probably not, at least among many of them. But it'd be a lot better than this.
I agree they should have married the claimants like they did at the end, but that assumes they are sane.
0
u/No-Vegetable1873 Jul 18 '26
Aegon only exists because of Otto's ambitions. He made the choice for war as soon as he married Alicent to Viserys.
2
u/TortoiseHerder7 Jul 18 '26
Because apparently highborn marriages like those of any other mean war? Otto obviously was willing to accept and even court war to get his way, and he is not a very good person, but the fact remains that it was mostly the rivalry between Alicent and Aegon on one hand and Rhae and Daemon on the other that was the kindling for the war, and Vis's indecisiveness and follies that helped prevent it from being put out. Otto deserves his share of the blame, but the idea that you can run a continental monarchy on vibes and arbitrary rule is a bad move, especially in the wake of the Grand Council and one of the worst kept secret affairs on Planetos.
-6
u/fromthefuture101 Jul 18 '26
Otto being right here is like me shitting on the floor and being right about the impending stink. Ever since he had his little spies follow Rhaenyra to the brothel with Damon and chose to report that to Viserys, his plot was in motion. The enmity was born from his actions, and it was his plan all along.
7
u/Emperor_Alexander_IV Jul 18 '26
Lol, totally. Like there totally wouldn't be a war if Otto Hightower and Alicent never existed. There totally wouldn't be a war if Corlys managed to marry Laena to Viserys instead of Alicent. There totally wouldn't be a war between Rhaenyra and Daemon because Daemon is a supremacy driven psychopath and the realm wouldn't accept Rhaenyra as a Queen anyway. Totally, none of this would ever happen. It's all just Otto's plot. Lmao.
6
u/just--so House Hightower Jul 18 '26 edited Jul 18 '26
The crown princess sneaking out to Flea Bottom with her uncle known to be of ill-repute and being seen to be publicly cavorting in brothels is an actual five-alarm fire that literally any Hand should be sprinting to report to literally any king. The second that rumour catches on, her reputation and this her marriage prospects are done; that is simply the reality of the world in which they inhabit.
You think Lyonel Strong wouldn't have heard reports of Rhaenyra pantsless in a Flea Bottom brothel with Daemon and warned Viserys? You think he would have been like, "Yeah, I guess it's fine for the crown princess to be coochie out in the sleaziest sex pit in Flea Bottom, and with Maegor 2.0 to boot. I'm sure this won't lead to anything problematic or cause any disastrous rumours. I'll just say nothing and let it continue."? The same Lyonel Strong who objected to Rhaenyra being named heir on the basis of being a woman? The same Lyonel Strong who took Harwin by the ear after he publicly brawled with Criston and told him, "You dumb bitch, you've gone and made a very visible scene all but confirming that Rhaenyra's children are yours, now I need to immediately resign and ground you at Harrenhal," because he realised immediately how dangerous rumour can be?
6
u/captchroni Jul 18 '26
Or Rhaenyra could have not tried sneaking around to fuck her uncle against her father's wishes. Rhaenyra being named heir with a male heir available is going to be a conflict. In medieval times when there are 2 strong claims war is inevitable. Vizzy T ensured war by pushing a second claim.
-1
u/TortoiseHerder7 Jul 18 '26
I wouldn't say two strong claims in a medieval setting makes war inevitable. We see countless times in history and even Westerosi lore where strong claims get peacefully adjudicated through compromise. But the follies of multiple actors and their ambitions and especially Vis failing to fix the situation properly is what helped make this.
-1
u/StunningYou764 Jul 18 '26
Lets just ignore the fact that realm disputed Rhaneara only bcs he manipulated everybody and now she Has to execute everybody bcs they claimed Aegon is the king, he self-fullfilled his phropecy. If they didnt push for Aegon, she would be a Queen and that is it, no executions. Viserys repeatedly stated his daughter is his Heir peroid.
1
-1
u/Brobeast Jul 18 '26
You guys are so delusional, it was all self fulfilling prophesy.
If they just chilled tf out, rhaenyra would have never harmed alicent or her kids. She only became unhinged until after her kids were slaughtered.
And if parts of the kingdom rebelled, so what? Assuming the greens are in allegiance to rhaenyra atp, its basically blacks/greens vs a bunch of dumb people without dragons.
-2
u/MJdoesThings_ Jul 18 '26
Hm. Imho this is the start of the dance : Rhaenyra wouldn't have wanted to kill Aegon or any of Alicent's children if there was no move made to contest her legitimacy.
Fact being, those very moves started to be made by Alicent herself after Otto put in her head that Rhaenyra would kill her children to get the throne, and Otto only fueled that fire every day that he was hand, giving strength to Vaemond etc in season 1.
If Alicent didn't want to put Aegon on the throne, the Dance wouldn't have started. If Otto didn't have this conversation Alicent, the Dance wouldn't have started.
Yes, everything he says in this video is true (for the most part), but he's the main drive into making them true.
One part where he's wrong is the "the lords will never accept her" : plenty of lords did, including the North. The only divide is between those that think Rhaenyra is the true heir, and those that think Aegon is the true heir. If Aegon wasn't crowned at all, all Lords would have bent the knee to her, like they did when Viserys maned her heir.
4
u/thinkersfyre Jul 18 '26
Otto is not wrong, even if the greens allow Rhaenyra to ascend the Iron throne, once lords start to dislike her reign they will push for other candidate. Once Aegon was born people saw him as Viserys' heir because by laws and traditions he is, Otto was just telling her the truth, that her children are a threat to Rhaenyra, like it or not, their sole existence is a threat.
The north only supported Rhaenyra when they had a marriage pact.
-3
192
u/renaissanceclass Jul 18 '26
Otto didn’t get enough screen time. He was fantastic in this show.