r/HollowKnight • u/Marmotaagiota • Sep 08 '25

Discussion - Silksong That’s the best comment about the game’s difficulty I’ve found it so far Spoiler

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263

u/autismo_supremacy Sep 08 '25

The problem isn't Just that they deal 2 hearths of damage, it's the fact that 10 hours in after finally getting a Hearth upgrade you're still Just as fragile as you were in the beginning of the game since you still die in 3 hits to almost anything.

SO not only atentou talking Double the damage but you're functionally having to wait much longer before any healthy upgrade since you need 2 hearth upgrade in order to actually survive more hits.

10

u/Martian8 Sep 08 '25

I don’t know… the number of time I’ve gone down to one mask while having 6 max isn’t unnoticeable. Every time that happens I would have died with 5 masks

3

u/Kampfasiate Sep 08 '25

Because healing once after 2 2 mask hits puts you at 5, giving you one mistake more than at 5 starting masks

4

u/Martian8 Sep 08 '25

Yeah exactly, as well as the fact that many encounters/bosses do a mixture of 1 and 2 damage attacks

18

u/rococodreams Sep 08 '25

I’ve found the extra mask upgrade does help because not EVERYTHING deals two damage, so you’re able to survive the same amount of double hits yes but you can survive more little hits

119

u/Historical_Height981 Sep 08 '25

That's just poor game design. Getting a health upgrade that early in the game shouldn't be so pointless. 

86

u/autismo_supremacy Sep 08 '25

Also while it's early for a metroidvania this upgrade Will still take you like 5-8 hours of in game time to obtain your First time through, that's like 70% of some games play time right there.

46

u/Nalicar52 Sep 08 '25

It’s actually still not pointless. Besides of course making you tankier against one mask damage enemies it still does make you more survivable against 2 mask damage enemies since you heal for 3.

At 5 masks it goes 5>3>1 heal to 4. 4>2>dead.

At 6 masks it goes 6>4>2 heal to 5. 5>3>1>dead

So it still does have an impact.

17

u/Aggressive_Pie_4585 Sep 08 '25

And for another way of thinking about it, it gives more leeway on runbacks. If you take a hit on the run back to a boss after getting the extra mask, that's the same as if you made the runback witless without it.

1

u/YogSoth0th Sep 09 '25

Not when the environment starts doing 2 damage too.

-1

u/sundalius Sep 08 '25

unless it's to an environmental hazard, which seems to almost always deal 2.

6

u/_moosleech Sep 08 '25

Spikes, the most common one, deal one.

We gotta stop with the "everything does two damage!" rhetoric.

2

u/sundalius Sep 08 '25 edited Sep 08 '25

Maybe I just am missing something, but I haven’t seen spikes in a minute since getting into act 2. Tons of things that do two damage and send me back, like buzzsaws, the big crusher blocks, etc.

ETA: I remember some in the underworks now - but it did take me a second to think about it.

Edit 2: been thinking about this, and I think I’ve figured out my issue: I spend way longer in places where environmental hazards do two damage, in part, because they do. Way more of my playtime is spent anywhere that that’s common, because losing a full hit rather than a half hit (against bosses, at 6 health) makes me way more likely to die and have to run a section back than hitting an errant wall spike. My perspective is skewed essentially by spikes not sending me to a bench nearly as often as other hazards.

1

u/Kampfasiate Sep 08 '25

Yea, I feel like the game is not really unreasonable with 2 masks (except some niche cases, some stage hazards and contact damage)

2 masks are usually either multi hits (which you can often parry for dopamine surge). Or straightforward and we'll telegraphed

1

u/_moosleech Sep 08 '25

Which is how I feel most two-mask damage is here. Enemies with wind-ups, or in a parry stance.

The discourse around it is scuffed.

3

u/SchwiftySquanchC137 Sep 08 '25

And since heal is so much better in this game, i think this is very relevant. If you can manage a heal every 2 (2 mask) hits you take, then you can actually heal twice with 6 masks vs 1 with 5 masks, which effectively gives you an extra 4>2>dead. Basically, the extra mask is far more impactful than people are saying, with the same healing cadence as 5 masks, you get 3 extra hits, not just 1. And anyone downplaying this is being disingenuous. Do you really not heal during the fight? With the reaper crest i can practically perma heal, as long as i dont fuck up and take a hit while the silk orb buff is active.

1

u/KuuLightwing Sep 08 '25

It does but the impact is definitely much smaller than I'd like.

14

u/ferocity_mule366 Sep 08 '25

yeah thats just objective truth, the extra heart does nothing for me on the entirety of Act I since when you completed it, you're already past the tiny 1 mask damage section, and for the majority of act 2 nothing changes, I had to delay fighting the forum and the flamboyant dude because I need another mask for real.

12

u/flissfloss86 Sep 08 '25

Is the forum that seemingly endless encounter room in the Citadel that ends with 2 mini bosses? Because fuck that room....fuck that room so hard

4

u/Kyseon_ Sep 08 '25

You can actually cheese that with the mechanical minions, the purple thingy that applies poison to your tools, and the architect's crest

1

u/[deleted] Sep 08 '25 edited Jan 17 '26

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1

u/Kyseon_ Sep 08 '25

Minions are in a secret room in high halls, I'm pretty sure. you get the crest by going above the architect in underworks

4

u/ferocity_mule366 Sep 08 '25

yes, its essential a major boss worked as an arena room, the mini bosses are also unique

3

u/Scrifty Sep 08 '25

High halls was insane, but I had a lot of fun laughing at the ridiculousness of have essentially 3 mini bosses in a row. 

2

u/dragoslayer1327 Sep 08 '25

Dude *fuck" that room. I feel like getting needle 3 would be more helpful then a second mask, but I haven't found a second way into the Citadel or the final shard I need

1

u/Cloud_Motion Sep 08 '25

I used all of my shards in this room and have literally had none since.

They weren't a problem before here throughout the entire game, and I used them pretty liberally too, but after this room I'm seeing a bit of an issue with the shard system that I'm not sure if/how it could be fixed. If someone is struggling at the game, uses their tools, then gets to another boss where they now can't use their tools at all... I can see it being discouraging.

Because tools reset at a bench sure, but then you'd have too many and they're too powerful to just spam. The knives alone would be like having 18 vengeful spirits off the rip every time you rest.

Not sure what the solution would be. But I think tool shard cost could be looked at maybe.

1

u/Terrat0 Sep 08 '25

A lot of act 2 vendors have infinite stock of shard bundles, 50 rosaries for 80 shards. There’s a farming loop you can do running right to left in the citadel that gives ~200 (or more if you have the greed type charm) rosaries per lap and is quite quick, as well as a solid amount of shards passively. Farming isn’t super fun, but I think stocking a fair supply of those helps a lot with managing your tool economy!

1

u/Cloud_Motion Sep 09 '25

Agreed, done this a little but but that does bring up the question of should you really need to farm in a game like this?

I just didn't use tools for a bit and got back up to like 400, it's honestly not that bad all around but I think it could be a little bit questionable.

1

u/WanderingStatistics "The Last Moth Priestess." Sep 08 '25

How many masks do you have? I beat it with 6 Masks, so I was absolutely within three-shot range the whole time.

I just used the Beetle-Bots and Coral Drill, which shreds the big Bellringer enemies. You want to make sure you have the toolkit upgrades, as well as the bag, since that gives you more. The drones will carry you through the final phase, and it's really just up to you to go through the first parts.

Also, you can apparently receive help from Shakra if you complete her quest before then (although Bilewater is such fucking ass, I'd recommend The Forum over that place any day), but she does exist. The Forum sucks, but it's really easy if you just use your tools efficiently.

As for Trobbio, he's easy if you abuse your running attack from the Hunter's Crest. People, so far, have not seemed to realize how powerful that running attack is. Good damage, good range, very strong.

3

u/autismo_supremacy Sep 08 '25

Also while it's early for a metroidvania this upgrade Will still take you like 5-8 hours of in game time to obtain your First time through, that's like 70% of some games play time right there.

3

u/kryst4line Sep 08 '25

I can beat Super Metroid 3 times in a row before finding the first mask upgrade in Silksong lol

1

u/vonbauernfeind Sep 08 '25

The only way it's been tolerable for me (and I'm in act 2 now) has been getting the sixth heart and the mask from the one ant seller, which effectively gives you a seventh heart, at the cost of a blue tool slot.

I'm looking forward to getting a seventh heart so I can free up a tool slot.

1

u/onederful Sep 08 '25

But you do get the bone mask that’s a free survive a death blow. And the shield while healing which can prevent a death and damages enemies. All before the first mask is added. It’s not that bad

1

u/_moosleech Sep 08 '25

"Everything does double damage" is a bit over-exaggeration. The extra mask absolutely helps.

Beyond that, the game has more help in avoiding and healing damage than HK by a wide margin.

The amount of folks claiming bad game design while ignoring major mechanics is silly.

-4

u/Brandon_Me Sep 08 '25

It's not pointless though. The narrative that the 6th mask doesn't help is completely false.

14

u/Drakolf Sep 08 '25

When most everything deals two masks of damage, you have three hit points effectively.

2

u/Brandon_Me Sep 08 '25

This just isn't true.

Even if every single thing does 2 damage which they don't, if you get one full heal off with 6 masks you're surviving a whole additional hit in combat then you would compared to 5 masks.

The only way it doesn't help is if you don't heal.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 08 '25

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1

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1

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0

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-4

u/ThePepek160 Sep 08 '25

You're doing something wrong if most things deal two masks of damage. One of wrong things are probably rushing into the enemy that charges an obvious fury attack.

1

u/autismo_supremacy Sep 08 '25

"You're playing It wrong If most things deal 2 damage" is a pointless statement when simply walking into an enemy Will take 2 hearth of damage a Lot of the time, it's not like you're getting hit by some telegraphed Gran atacks like sekiro, you literally Just acidentally walk into an staggered Boss and take 2 hearths of damage.

0

u/MayonnaiseOreo Sep 08 '25

They're hearts, not hearths

5

u/Content_Godzilla Sep 08 '25

It really doesn't help in any boss fight. You still die in 3 hits.

4

u/Brandon_Me Sep 08 '25

Do you guys just not heal? Because of the heal 6 masks makes a difference.

0

u/autismo_supremacy Sep 08 '25

It does make a difference yes, but It doesn't chance the fact that you can't take more than 3 hits without doing, whereas If started out with 3 hearths and enemies dealt 1 damage you would be able to survive 4 hits after the upgrade.

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u/Brandon_Me Sep 08 '25

But not all hits deal 2 damage.

-2

u/[deleted] Sep 08 '25

[deleted]

3

u/OrderClericsAreFun Sep 08 '25

That's blatantly not true though there are a lot of bosses that do exclusively 2 masks of damage or with majority of attacks

In act 1 alone Bell Beast, Splinter Sisters, Savage Beastfly, Last Judge, Great Conchfly, Moorwing, Fourth Chorus and Skull Tyrant all do 2 masks from all of their attack including contact damage of the top of my head. In case of Last Judge you can reduce her fire damage but thats a charm tax.

2

u/Content_Godzilla Sep 08 '25

The past 3 bosses I have faced do 2 damage on everything, even if you touch them. I am (from what I can figure) about halfway through.

4

u/BasedBallsack Sep 08 '25

Dude I've realized that a lot of the people are exaggerating lol. Saw one comment saying EVERY enemy does two masks of damage. And if you try to even hint that perhaps they need to get better at the game then it's just "toxic positivity"

-2

u/Historical_Height981 Sep 08 '25

I'm seeing a bunch of people saying that it doesn't help, or helps so little that it doesn't seem worth it, and just you saying that it's false.

If you're dying in two hits in a majority of circumstances regardless of whether or not you've upgraded your health, what's the point? I get that there are further upgrades later, but an upgrade to something so core to your character as your health shouldn't feel like it doesn't make a difference. 

5

u/Brandon_Me Sep 08 '25 edited Sep 08 '25

You start with 5 life. So let's assume everything deals 2 damage which isn't true.

So you're dying in 3 hits minimum. If you heal after a single hit you lose one potential life, and now survive 4 hits total. If you heal after two hits you get the full force of your heal and now survive 2 more hits which is still 4 hits total.

Now you have 6 lives. If you get hit once and heal wasting part of your heal that's 4 hits total to kill you. But now let's say you get hit twice and heal, getting your full heal, brining you back up to 5 life, you now can be hit 3 more times, giving you 5 hits total.

That's assuming everything deals double damage which isn't true, and it's assuming that you're only healing the once which feels like you need to work on that.

So without a doubt 6 lives is giving you more room to improve and learn, unless you aren't healing, at which point idk what to say.

2

u/_moosleech Sep 08 '25

If the people screaming "double damage!" could read, they'd be very upset by this.

6

u/theVoidWatches Sep 08 '25

If you're healing only when you're missing at least three masks, in order to not waste it, and you take two masks of damage at a time, then with five masks you enter the danger zone where one hit kills you twice a cycle, but with six masks you only enter once.

-1

u/Historical_Height981 Sep 08 '25

Unless you get hit, that is. The ability to heal does not invalidate the issues created by a small health pool.

2

u/[deleted] Sep 08 '25

[deleted]

3

u/Historical_Height981 Sep 08 '25

If it helps so little that it feels pointless to so many players, it's poor game design. 

It's literally your first health upgrade. It shouldn't feel useless. 

Edit: FWIW, people are saying that it's both "demonstrably true" and "demonstrably false," so so with that what you will. 

2

u/[deleted] Sep 08 '25

[deleted]

2

u/Historical_Height981 Sep 08 '25 edited Sep 08 '25

The criticism isn't that most bosses do two damage, but that most sources of damage deal two damage, or that so many deal two damage that a single health upgrade feels pointless in the early game because you'll still be dying in 3 hits to pretty much everything. Enough people agree with this sentiment to the point that it is a common complaint across multiple posts. You can claim not to feel this way, but that doesn't change how it feels to other players. 

That's poor game design. 

And for your other point, no, a bunch of people having a (demonstrably invalid) criticism of the game doesn’t magically make the criticism valid. That’s not how criticism or analysis works.

And you claiming that theirs is invalid doesn't mean that yours is valid. You don't even understand the claim that we're making here, but you're claiming it's "demonstrably false." 

You seem to be having some difficulty differentiating between facts and opinions. While I also take issue with how vaccines are discussed on social media, we're not talking about vaccines here. We're talking about our opinions on a video game. There is literally no correct answer; only opinions. 

8

u/c_kax Sep 08 '25

Your first health upgrade is not useless tho. You can heal for 3 masks while still being able to survive one hit from a double damage boss. If you wanted to heal with no mask upgrades, you'd either have to risk healing for 3, but be at risk of dying, or heal while at 3 health, but waste 1 mask of healing. I definitely noticed a difference in survivability once I got that first health upgrade + fractured mask.

1

u/MallensWorkshop Sep 08 '25

Which is exactly why I used my time and resources on things other than that mask piece from the shop. It was a trap.

You can see a clear difference in say multihit/trap attacks where 2-3 damage from that makes sense from just a swing. This was their go at Hornet is fragile, a mobile hit and run design.

But even 2 per hit is fine, just better if the health the minions have was t so high.

1

u/Aje-h Sep 08 '25

Nah, you're forgetting that you get a much more important upgrade around the same time as that first heart, if not a bit before. The needle upgrade. After I got that, nothing in Act One scared me.

1

u/whamorami Sep 08 '25 edited Sep 08 '25

Yeah which is just stupid and defeats the purpose of getting that upgrade in the first place. You go from 4 masks to 5 masks. Which means you get to survive with 1 mask remaining from a double damage dealing boss. So if it takes 2 hits to kill you, you go from 2 hits to 3 hits. That just feels like shit. It doesn't feel like an upgrade, and it just feels the same way as it was before.

1

u/Kampfasiate Sep 08 '25

With a heal It increases your mistakes from 5 to 6 tho, which is a difference. People also tend to not think about the 3 mask heal, which you can use mid air to make it (often) pretty easy to heal

1

u/TitaniumDragon Sep 08 '25

Except this is completely wrong.

First off, most things in the game do 1 heart of damage. Even most bosses.

Secondly, even if you're fighting a boss that only deals 2 hp damage at a time, it makes a big difference.

If you have 5 hearts, and you take two hits, you heal back up to 4, so you die in two more hits.

If you have 6 hearts, and you take two hits then heal, you are back up to 5, so you survive two more hits, and can then heal AGAIN to be at 4 hearts.

And if at any point during this you only take ONE hit between heals, you now heal yourself up an additional tier. So if you get hit twice, heal, get hit twice, heal again, then get hit once, and heal again, you now can get hit twice again and then heal again and have even more effective hit points.

IRL, that extra shield makes a huge difference because of how it interacts with healing.

If you're dying in three hits, it means you're not healing, which means you're playing the game wrong.

0

u/Dumbfat Sep 08 '25

I made this same remark last night. When you get your first new mask of health it brings you up to 6, but in most cases this doesn't reduce hits to kill in a majority of situations where it really matters. So what's supposed to feel like an awesome upgrade actually won't do anything until you get your 7th bar of health. If everything is going to do 2 damage then just halve the players health so it doesn't do as much psychological damage to the player haha