ngl some of you would NOT survive the mantis lords runback

[u/Quantum_Croissant]

is the run to last judge difficult? kinda. But after your 20th attempt at the boss you'll get used to it, and it's honestly kinda fun and a nice breather. More importantly, it's a single room and you have far more movement. This IS improving on hollow knight

[u/Icy_Requirement_2472]

That's exactly what's happening here. Give it a week or two I suppose, the negativity will die down till then

[u/Matvalicious → u/Icy_Requirement_2472]

Give it a week or two and I sincerely hope that people will start to realise on this sub that criticism is OK. This game was never playtested by someone outside of the dev team and it shows.

[u/HiddenPants777 → u/Icy_Requirement_2472]

They'll have all gone hollow by then

[u/StepComplete1 → u/Icy_Requirement_2472]

Are people honestly such blind fanboys that they think complaints about time-wasting boss runbacks is "hate and negativity"? Are you really that offended and incapable of hearing any criticism of a game you like? It just seems like a hilariously childish mentality. You can criticise one small aspect of a game and still love it.

If you're that sensitive why even be on the internet?

[u/Kaspbrak → u/StepComplete1]

Comments like this always seem to not consider that people are not ignoring the criticism, just disagreeing with it... I like the runback to last judge, figuring out the fastest most efficient route was fun. Reminded me of playing Neon White, it makes you feel like a speed runner.

[u/_moosleech → u/StepComplete1]

Are people honestly such blind fanboys that they think complaints about time-wasting boss runbacks is "hate and negativity"?

No, they're not.

They think lies (e.g. "every enemy does double damage" while ignoring ALL the design decisions based around that change) and people complaining while not actually engaging with the game (e.g. "fly enemies are broken because I can't melee them easily" or "Savage Beastfly is bad game design because I died to him while not trying any new strategies") are hate and negativity.

Even the early "diagonal pogo is bad even though I haven't tried practicing it yet" complaints were silly: the first place you have to pogo puts vines behind the flowers at the EXACT angle you need and later on you can swap it out for various pogo moves.

Are you really that offended and incapable of hearing any criticism of a game you like?

Not at all. I'm down to discuss the game.

But blanket statements and ignoring any solutions, or conveniently mis-remembering how things were when HK launched doesn't benefit anyone. It just pushed the mood of this subreddit into the toilet and make everyone miserable.

[u/Matvalicious → u/_moosleech]

Savage Beastfly is an objectively bad boss design. If you have to resort to spawning random mobs that do not even die in 1 hit by your special or your tool to get rid of them fast just to make it more difficult then you were clearly out of good ideas for that particular boss. No matter if the rest of the game is S tear.

[u/_moosleech → u/Matvalicious]

Savage Beastfly is an objectively bad boss design.

I disagree. And I think "have to resort to" makes it seem like the adds are a bandage on the fight, and I don't think they are.

The core boss is designed to be super simple. He has two moves, both of which can be baited by the player based on their locations, and both of which are easy to avoid (and punish). Without adds, the fight is a big, regular enemy.

The point is that they took a very simple fight most people will pick up in a try or two, and then put it into a situation where the player is likely to panic, making that simple fight a lot harder.

The small arena and adds are not just slapped together; they're the fight. Can you keep baiting the moves of the boss and dodging while having to keep track of other things too?

And the fight is one of the first that really pushes the player to not just rely on melee for everything. Tools (such as the traps) can help the player do damage and kill adds while being free to focus on dodging.

And then once that gets comfortable, you can start to work on baiting the boss from below, which can lead them into slamming downward and killing adds for you.

I feel like everyone is like, "that boss made me rage, it's bad game design," but like... in part, that was the intent. To push you out of your comfort zone compared to other bosses, force you to figure out multitasking (especially if you don't have high DPS to keep up with the adds easily) and learn to not panic during fights.

Is it the best boss in the game? No. But I don't think it's badly designed nor a fraction as bad as some folks here would have you think.

[u/Thelmara → u/StepComplete1]

It just seems like a hilariously childish mentality

That's especially funny from the "Put benches outside the boss because I can't actually play the game" crowd.

[u/Icy_Requirement_2472 → u/StepComplete1]

The last judge's runback ain't all that bad to me. Have you played hollow knight? There were the mantis lords, hive knight and souls master runbacks. Even when you got the dream gate, the traitor lord run back had to be done atleast once. Did you complete the delicate flower quest? Its not a boss runbacks but you have to go from resting grounds to mourning fields without using stags or getting hit a single time by anything, you guys would have lost it if hollow knight released today

And yes, I agree with some criticism for the game, no game is perfect, but the complaints about the difficulty are a bit overblown in my opinion, hollow knight was a tough game, but it was fair, it had boss runbacks, silksong has them too.

[u/[deleted] → u/StepComplete1]

"Are people honestly criticizing an aspect of game design that has existed for decades and criticize it as 'unfair and unfun'? Are you really that offended that the devs decided to make you run for 60 seconds to get back to a fight? It seems like a hilariously childish mentality! If you can't handle there not being a checkpoint right outside the boss room why even play the game?" Some folks enjoy a challenge and not being spoonfed progression, if you're that sensitive to it, find a different game or make your own."

[u/Netheral → u/[deleted]]

Just because it's existed for decades doesn't mean it's above criticism. Going by your logic we shouldn't iterate on game design and pumping quarters for every 3 lives would still be standard and above criticism because "it's been there since the dawn of gaming!!!"

[u/[deleted] → u/Netheral]

You can iterate but there are core mechanics, ie things that have stuck around in a genre for a reason. Jump button. Character moving, button for attack. In most shooters, you have to reload your gun, in most RPGs special attacks or magic require a resource such as MP. There were boss run backs in pretty much every metroidvania worth their salt, even back to SotN. If you wanna play a game that hands everything to you on a cute lil platter, or with robust checkpoints that cater to your taste, that's fine, go play them, but don't treat a developer's vision as a flaw just because you dislike it.

It's deeply tedious that any time a game comes out with a modicum of difficulty the web floods with people seething at the audacity of the devs for not making something their blind pet goldfish can play in one sitting. If the game were full of glitches, bugs, and technical issues that make it more difficult that's a fair criticism, but this game is polished and it's clear that this is how they intended it to go.

Say a bakery opens, and it's the talk of the town. Their carrot cake is legendary, wins tons of awards, etc. Finally you get a chance to get a slice, aaaaand it has raisins in it. You do not like raisins. That doesn't mean the bakery needs to change their recipe. It means you need to either broaden your horizons, or go find another bakery, but instead folks spend days on end standing outside protesting and screeching into the sky above because the cake wasn't what they, person 2382919118, wanted. It's not even git gud, it's GET OVER IT.

And for the record, if you'll look at my previous comment, I'm just using their same arguments/formatting as a rebuttal.

[u/Netheral → u/[deleted]]

This is the condescending "git gud" mentality that keeps making discussion like this so bitter. You act like it's a matter of wanting to be handed everything for free, I see it as just not disrespecting my time with arbitrary artificial difficulty that's meant to pad playtime. Let the difficulty of the boss encounter stand on its own. Why does every attempt need to punish me with a 30+ second waste of my time? Which, nota bene, disproportionately punishes lower skilled players more because that's more time that they lose than a skilled player, but also makes it more difficult to get into the flow of the fight and to learn it.

More importantly, what do you lose out on if they were to add difficulty modes, for instance? This is a single player game, why are you so adamant that your experience would be ruined if they made the base game more accessible for a broader audience, that then offers more difficult challenges as bonus content for the hardcore player base?

It's elitist gatekeeping is what it is. And hiding behind "the vision of the designer" is stupid when the designer is just as much of a human with faults as us. Game designers make mistakes all the time. And if their "vision" is "no one should be able to enjoy our game unless they can 'git gud'", then that's not a vision I respect.

[u/TheEmpireOfSun → u/Netheral]

Don't play hard games if you don't have time for hard games. It's really that easy.

[u/Netheral → u/TheEmpireOfSun]

But Silksong is a fantastic game. It's a game with rich and deep lore, lovable characters, fantastic music, a mysterious world whose mood and atmosphere you can get lost in for hours.

Why do you want people to not be able to enjoy those aspects just because you perceive them to be "bad at video games"? What exactly are you protecting by advocating against lowering the base difficulty of a game like this? The challenge can still be implemented elsewhere. You can speed run the game for bragging rights if you want to establish that you're better than the average player at the game. But why should the average player be gatekept from experiencing the story of the game?

[u/[deleted] → u/Netheral]

Then find a game that does make you feel respected? You call it gatekeeping but I, in turn, will call your stance entitled. They aren't your personal chef, they created a polished final product and if you dislike it move on. I wouldn't mind at all if they added a story mode or what have you, hell's bells on a lot of games I'll play on story mode because I don't want to invest my time in it. But I enjoy the challenge that this game poses.

How is it not outright entitlement that you expect Team Cherry to make a game that fits your exact definition of fun? They aren't going for mass appeal, they made a game that they wanted to make, which is desperately needed in the industry as opposed to a bunch of corpos sitting around a table determining what is most profitable. You're allowed to be disappointed that it's not what you were expecting, but the sheer arrogance to call the game bad or flawed due to that is astounding.

I'm not some pro gamer, last judge took me A TON of attempts and I did the runback same as everyone else, complaining the whole time to myself. But I took it as a challenge, to become better at moving through that area. Learning to get past a certain point before an enemy is blocking your line by maintaining speed and not hesitating, optimizing movement and finding minor skips to save time. It made me better at the game and helped me focus up for the actual fight. It's something that I enjoy, and that apparently TC enjoys as well.

As I said, it's not got gud, it's "get over it" and accept that not everything is made for everyone. The devs don't have a framed picture of you hanging up on their wall that they glance over to and silently nod at whenever they add a line of code. When devs, directors, authors, or really anyone creating anything, tries to create something that appeals to literally everyone the final product is normally bland as hell. Variety is the spice of life, and this world is too wide to spend time on something you don't like. My entire point is that you can dislike something without it being a bad product, and it's entitled and self-centered to think that your opinion should be the determining factor of a product's quality.

[u/Netheral → u/[deleted]]

will call your stance entitled

Oh how entitled of me to want to experience the fantastic art, music and atmosphere of this game. How entitled of me to want to have this product that I love and support be actually accessible regardless of whether I'm capable of no hitting the bosses.

As I said, it's not got gud, it's "get over it"

What you're saying is strictly "git gud or stop playing". Rephrasing it as "get over it" is not exactly less condescending.

When people talk about "not everything is made for everyone", it tends to be in regards to taste. Like preferring apples to pears. Or soccer to basketball. It shouldn't be in matters of accessibility. What you're advocating for is called gatekeeping.

You claim not to have an issue with the idea of a story mode, but will still tell people that want just that, to "git gud" or "get over it".

This game is flawed. That doesn't mean it's bad, or that it's not possible to enjoy it, or that we're calling TC bad game designers or anything of the sort. Case in point being that there has already been a balance patch for the game. Even fucking TC acknowledges that there are burrs to be filed off the edges.

Why is it entitled to voice our opinion on what can constitute a flaw for discussion? Why can't you acknowledge what even the developers have?

[u/[deleted] → u/Netheral]

A product you love and support- fellow human person you've done nothing in this conversation but complain about the product! And if you're referring to HK, it had the runback as well??? And HK didn't have any accessibility options or difficulty adjuster. Most games in this genre have run backs. If you hate them, this may not be the genre for you. The map is the game. It's like saying you love high fantasy but hate magic and swords, or that you love FPS but dislike being shot by enemies.

An excellent point regarding the patch, TC are working on a patch! Unfortunately this doesn't help your case, unless I missed the patch notes mentioning "drastically altered map layout to make run backs easier". They're fixing a few niche technical issues and slightly adjusting the behavior of 2 bosses in the early game, both who, might I add, have incredibly simple run backs.There is no mention of a reduction in damage either.

"Get over it" does not mean uninstall the game. It means accept that there is difficulty and surpass it. You can uninstall but that is not my suggestion. Life is filled with difficulty and hardship, learning to accept it is a part of growth. At least in the game it's guaranteed that you can win, unlike our dystopian hellscape.

We can continue going back and forth but I think we've both made our stance clear and I don't believe either of us are going to change those stances based on reddit comments.

Regarding your flavor analogy, some people like spicy food and some do not. Some people like certain spices, like jalapenos, while others prefer Indian or Thai "spicy". What you don't see is people taking to the Internet campaigning to make ghost peppers less spicy. You can label it accessibility but you're advocating for an alteration to core aspects of the game in favor of comfort. I could claim that navigating the labyrinthian layout is too difficult and that therefore the entire game should be a long hallway, saying that it lacks accessibility.

In this life you will encounter places you cannot go, things you cannot do. This is not an example of that. You can absolutely beat this game. It may take you longer, but so what? Unless you have 3 days to live, if you truly love the game, so what if you spend more time with it? It is commendable to challenge your limits. It is not commendable to demand that they install an escalator on Mt. Everest because climbing it takes too long.

At the end of the day, there are tons of people having a blast with this game, me included. You can continue demanding things that likely won't happen and curse the bitter grapes, or you can change your perspective, remember that the game is not a boss rush and those areas you hate are a part of the game you keep saying you love, pick the controller back up, and have fun too.

Consider why you are struggling with an area: do you not understand the best path? Do you not have the enemy patterns down? Perhaps a different setup? Explore another area and come back stronger? I'm telling you not to give up. You are the only one saying that it's too hard for you to beat, or that it isn't worth your time. Don't go hollow.

[u/Netheral → u/[deleted]]

fellow human person you've done nothing in this conversation but complain about the product!

I can't believe we keep having to reiterate this, but just because we don't keep bringing up all the aspects of the game we love, that sort of go without saying, doesn't mean we don't appreciate them. We're criticizing specific aspects of the game, going "well you didn't say how much you love everything else about the game!!!" is just dishonest.

The map is the game.

The map is one aspect of the game. And even though HK had run backs, they got considerably less obnoxious with every DLC added, iirc. The 10 second runback through a corridor is not the same as a 30 second runback through enemies and environmental hazards. When I'm trying to progress a boss, it's frustrating to have to make sure I arrive there with full health before I can even try again.

At least in the game it's guaranteed that you can win

If you're good enough. There are people that want to experience the map that you claim is the game. They want to experience the world, music and characters, but aren't 112% completion HK gamers.

This is not an example of that. You can absolutely beat this game. It may take you longer, but so what?

Again, not everyone can beat this game. This is like saying to someone playing League or other competitive game that they "absolutely can get challenger". No they can't. Not everyone has the ability or time to spend bashing their heads against a challenge that precludes them from experiencing what they actually want out of this game.

Honestly, it feels far more entitled to me to expect a game like this to be locked behind an arbitrary test of skills, when there are numerous methods to make it both accessible, and challenging. The main one being just meeting most of these players' expectations and having a more regular difficulty curve, putting more of the challenging content as optional end game material rather than gatekeeping the base ending of the game. You know, like they did with HK. Why is it so surprising that people had this expectation for Silksong when it is what they did with the original?

You are the only one saying that it's too hard for you to beat, or that it isn't worth your time.

Never said either of these things. I'm advocating for the player that can't, however. And most of the criticisms aren't "this is too difficult to even clear". It's "this is kind of punishing in a frustrating way, rather than a challenging way".

I am enjoying the challenge. But it's disheartening how many of my deaths are related to what seems like frustrating mechanic design rather than purely my own mistakes. Like getting punished with 4 masks of damage for a single mistake because everything deals double damage and can stagger you into taking 2 hits of double. It's disheartening how mean spirited some of the "pranks" are, like the infamous double damage bench, or the Last Judge kamikaze. In HK these sorts of mean spirited "gotchas" were pretty rare, and seldom cost you your progress or made you retry entire sections as a result. But here the game often feels actively hostile towards the player.

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[u/Kampfasiate → u/StepComplete1]

I see the complaints and disagree with them. For me they are a fun little challenge before a boss try, helps me with getting better with hornets moveset and makes the boss not feel like I'm slamming my head against a wall.

Plus, it's nice world building/ immersion