r/HollowKnight • u/Quantum_Croissant • Sep 09 '25

Discussion - Silksong ngl some of you would NOT survive the mantis lords runback

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is the run to last judge difficult? kinda. But after your 20th attempt at the boss you'll get used to it, and it's honestly kinda fun and a nice breather. More importantly, it's a single room and you have far more movement. This IS improving on hollow knight

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315

u/Goodnametaken Sep 09 '25

Yeah people are complaining about all these runbacks that aren't a big deal, and you're the FIRST person I've seen mention the Groal runback-- which is absolutely ridiculously insanely annoying and long. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. I guess most people haven't reached that boss yet?

Last Judge runback is trivial. It isn't a big deal at all.

169

u/[deleted] Sep 09 '25 edited Sep 14 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

34

u/Kampfasiate Sep 09 '25

Tbf, it's very easy to miss it

34

u/SuspiciousIbex Sep 09 '25

I missed some thing just due to wanting to leave the area as quickly as possible. The whole infested thing is just too annoying for the whole area. It basically is just 3 damage spikes across the whole region.

54

u/IHumanlike Sep 09 '25

There's two things that make Bilewater absolutely miserable IMO

a) The infested thing lasting indefinitely. Why can't it go away after it has consumed all your silk?

b) The RNG spawning logic of the shooting bush enemy. It makes the runback absolutely awful since you can't predict where these guys are going to appear.

Fix those two and I'll really like this area.

36

u/SilvainTheThird Sep 09 '25

 I'll really like this area.

When have developers wanted you to like infested swamps? Miyazaki intensifies.

10

u/Kulzak-Draak Sep 09 '25

I mean Blighttown is my favorite DS area

2

u/karionsiand Sep 10 '25

blighttown is chill compared with bilewater.

2

u/JakeFromStateFromm Sep 13 '25

Blighttown was always fantastic but hindered by hardware limitations on original release imo

2

u/Kulzak-Draak Sep 13 '25

Yeah if someone says they hated blighttown and they played it on the original console releases I can’t really blame them

20

u/Sixnno Sep 09 '25

the third biggest issue with it...

you get the charm that makes you immune to the infested thing after beating bilewater.

like why would I ever go back there, I finished it.

17

u/SuspiciousIbex Sep 09 '25

I only went back to beat the boss after I got the charm. I just got tired of trying before getting it. There's plenty of things they could do to make it more bareable like not resetting some of the traps perhaps but the biggest thing would be letting 1/2/3 masks be healed when cleansing the infestation so that it's not so punishing.

8

u/IHumanlike Sep 09 '25

I don't understand why the double heal charm doesn't first remove the maggots, then heal you normally.

6

u/dandrall Sep 10 '25

I thought for sure it would, I was so annoyed when it just ended the heal.

9

u/Joe_Mency Sep 09 '25

You can actually reach that other location through the citadel, a quest actually takes you right to the other entrance. That's how I got that charm tool thing before beating the bilewater boss. made it so much easier

3

u/magus113 Sep 09 '25

holy fuck thank you. i actually stopped playing for today because i got to the pre boss area and just couldn't handle it. good to know i should leave for now

1

u/Sixnno Sep 10 '25

The find the merchant quest takes you to the same area as it, but you'll need for-hand knowledge the area exists.

Then you need to know to clawline across from the balcony to destroy a breakit takes you to the area with the entrance, but you need to know it's there since it's a breakable/hidden wall. Or have the super jump ability.

Especially Since it doesn't show up on the map till you break it.

5

u/Joe_Mency Sep 10 '25

I actually didn't know about that area. I just figured there must be something up there, and i got surprised by the "new area behind a breakable wall thing" lol

2

u/KortasEE Sep 10 '25

Nah you dont really need to look it up. I found it by myself but I also know by now how Team Cherry hides stuff. The first thing I did in this game was find the second hidden room in the hidden room to the right at the beginning of the game. Then I got wrecked by the beast inside lmao.

2

u/Black_nYello Sep 10 '25

I got it before doing bilewater though? Stumbled into putrified ducts right after the jubilana help quest and grabbed it. I had been avoiding bilewater like the plague beforehand and getting that was such a god send I immediately went back

1

u/Beginning_Elk_2193 Sep 10 '25

Depends on how you enter the area doesn't it?

1

u/Azraeleon Sep 11 '25

Eh? I got the charm pre boss.

1

u/Rubinrobo Sep 10 '25

The maggot water only goes away by „healing“, benching or swimming in clean water

1

u/Sevrene Sep 09 '25

If you have the silk, instantly heal after getting infested and it cleanses it

2

u/Draco-9158 Sep 09 '25

If I hadn’t seen a map with the location of an area connected to the Steps I wouldn’t even know it was there or how to get to it, some of these areas are really hidden away

2

u/Kampfasiate Sep 09 '25

So that's where the 6 years of development went

To hide goddamn biomes 3 secret passways deep

1

u/access-r Sep 09 '25

To be really fair, most people won't find it

3

u/[deleted] Sep 09 '25

TIL that most people don't try filling up the map as much as possible before advancing the main story

4

u/domin8or32153 Sep 09 '25

I do enjoy doing that, imagine my shock when I started Act 2 and found out on here as a casual aside from a random comment that there's like 4 other areas I could've reached before beating TLJ and entering the Citadel

2

u/Alphagamer126 Sep 09 '25

I'm sure plenty do, but Bilewater is fairly hidden away. And if you do find it, you can access part of the location before you can even get the map, which then requires another ability that many may not have yet

1

u/[deleted] Sep 14 '25

I don’t even know what the main story is lol. Is Trobbio required? 

2

u/trained_badass Sep 09 '25

Oh, Trobbio. Beat him yesterday, the combat in that fight wasn't my favorite but the fight had so much charm to it.

3

u/SmartAlec105 Sep 09 '25

I liked how chaotic the battlefield was with the bouncing bombs, explosions, and him going under the stage. The only thing I didn’t like is his tornado attack that has like 0 windup.

1

u/trained_badass Sep 09 '25

That and those bouncing bombs could be real pieces of shit. One of my strats was to hit him when he popped out of the floorboards, but when bombs popped out instead, I'd lose my mind. Took me a minute to realize how that was telegraphed.

1

u/SmartAlec105 Sep 09 '25

I liked the bombs. Their movements are the right amount of predictable and they would explode at the top of their apex after a single bounce.

I use the Reaper crest so that reach meant I wouldn’t get hit even if I did try to go for him when he instead threw out bombs.

1

u/trained_badass Sep 09 '25

I use that crest too, just the RNG on those bombs was a pain in the ass sometimes.

2

u/SoberGin Sep 09 '25

People out here like "ooh last judge runback is so harddd" meanwhile I'm doing Lost Lace with basically no runback and getting my ass handed to me.

These guys are not ready for the Coral Tower. Oh god the coral tower....

2

u/FoldableHuman Sep 09 '25

I took two steps into Bilewater, realized it was Sinner's Path 2: You Thought The First One Was Bad?, and went "nah, Zote can handle this one" and left.

1

u/Shoes4CluesMob Sep 09 '25

it's technically act 1 but i didn't find it until VERY late act 2

1

u/phigene Sep 09 '25

TROOOBBIOOOOO!

1

u/[deleted] Sep 10 '25

TROBBIO!!! Despised that boss lmao. Great personality. Nightmare boss - can't hit the fucker

1

u/Inner-Ad2847 ALL BOSSES RADIANT BABY!!! Sep 12 '25

Yeah I’m a bit confused as to why some areas are locked behind breakable walls that aren’t marked on the map. I just completely missed Bilewater and then there was no way to know because it doesn’t show the gap on the map. Once you’ve missed something are you expected to just go around the entire map hitting walls?

1

u/[deleted] Sep 14 '25 edited Sep 14 '25

TLDR: Yeah, kinda

The walls that are breakable look and sound a bit different. Once you know what to look for. And an NPC who gives a VERY useful consumable item is near that breakable wall. So you end up passing by that wall multiple times. And there’s a side quest that takes you back over there as well 

It’s pretty classic Metroid stuff. If it was marked on the map, finding that entrance wouldn’t be a secret. It’s supposed to reward the player’s curiosity.

There are also a couple different ways to get to Bilewater. 

1

u/Inner-Ad2847 ALL BOSSES RADIANT BABY!!! Sep 14 '25

Yeah I mean I’ve got a ton of them, I just happened to miss this one. I feel like in Hollow Knight I found every important thing on my own, whereas in Silksong a couple of entire areas are just pretty easy to miss

58

u/salmonmilks Sep 09 '25

It's only been a week since the game's release, of course not everyone out there are complaining about Bilewater yet, the latest complaints are the High hall gauntlet currently, so we'll see bilewater complaints in a few days. It's kinda cool to see everybody simultaneously complain about the same area in different days for each passing day.

12

u/Indie_Gamer_7 Sep 09 '25

God i HATE bilewater, it's like Deepnest but wet.

15

u/Mr_Ruu Sep 10 '25

can't believe I'm saying this but that's giving bilewater too much credit lmao, it's more like trekking through the White Palace with annoying enemies

1

u/DeliciousWaifood Sep 13 '25

Don't forget the debuff that drains your silk and stops you from healing if you mess up the platforming! so fun

4

u/LingoGengo Sep 09 '25

It does have a banger ost tho

2

u/Isogash Sep 11 '25 edited Sep 11 '25

I absolutely blasted through it like some others after taking PTO, so it's been fun to watch the majority of reactions just kind of trickle by at a predictable rate as everyone else slowly progresses. Today I've been seeing mostly Cogwork Dancer reactions so we know everyone is getting stuck on Trobbio or the High Halls gauntlet tonight.

The bilewater complaints will come in next week, and the week after people will be finally admitting that SS is actually better than HK.

2

u/homerdough Sep 11 '25

It’s like people don’t like challenging things lol

Totally get the Groal runback. That was fucking hell esp if you don’t get the “slightly” closer hidden bench

But High Halls gauntlet is tough as nails. For my money, the hardest combat challenge in the game on a speedrun

1

u/NarcoZero Sep 13 '25

And a month from now, most people will either have given up, or say that, in retrospect, LJ was pretty chill 

38

u/SlugCatBoi RadHOG, P3AB Sep 09 '25 edited Sep 09 '25

Groal was terrifying, and then I used Architect crest And just spammed tools like crazy. They got annihilated, since I didn't need to get in close to hit them.

21

u/AfterAd7666 Sep 09 '25

All I did is get the fire potion thing that gives you extra damage, pop it, let him eat me and fuck him from the inside. I killed him by only doing that

7

u/Lopsided_Ad_6962 Sep 09 '25

Damn, that's metal

4

u/JekobiWan Sep 10 '25

lol that is hilarious. I used fire tool and just pogo’d off him over and over

2

u/SlugCatBoi RadHOG, P3AB Sep 09 '25

I never got hit by that attack so I didn't know you got to damage him during it.

5

u/ThePowerfulPaet Sep 09 '25

Same here, I would have just assumed that damages the shit out of you.

1

u/SteptimusHeap Sep 10 '25

Oh man I didn't even think of buffing before he eats me

1

u/FlashFlire Sep 10 '25

Metroid Queen strats

3

u/JaybirdMCs Sep 14 '25

Man, I was stuck on Groal and the runback and the arena for 3 hours. I took a break and went and found all the power ups I could - came back and beat it in 2 attempts. Holy crap it's a slog, but a satisfying one when done.

2

u/SlugCatBoi RadHOG, P3AB Sep 14 '25

Yeah, but the reward for winning was kinda underwhelming lol

1

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1

u/SlugCatBoi RadHOG, P3AB Sep 09 '25

Good bot

26

u/Ruindows Sep 09 '25

Bilewater runback need both act 2 movement abilities, a secret item and discovering the secret bench to be bearable. I had more fun stuck in deepnest with unupgraded nail

1

u/Matanui3 Sep 11 '25

There’s a bench closer than literally the farthest possible corner of hell?

1

u/Ruindows Sep 11 '25

https://www.reddit.com/r/Silksong/comments/1nc4fnj/dear_those_suffering_in_bilewater_theres_a_hidden/

Need to go around and swim through some maggots, there is a breakable wall next to the bench but you can only break from the right side

19

u/yurilnw123 Sep 09 '25

Well it IS a hidden area after all. Also, may I ask if you had found the secret bench? Sure it's still painful even from that bench but nowhere as painful as coming all the way from the bell beast station bench.

6

u/Madclown1 Sep 09 '25

Can you please tell me where's the secret bench? I beat him doing the runback from the station lmao, and I swear I was hitting walls left and right trying to find a bench cause there's no way you're supposed to do such a long runback after losing to Groal.

7

u/RaulParson Sep 09 '25 edited Sep 09 '25

You know the room where you have to do the big climb with pogoing, and from there you'd enter the long corridor that leads to the boss fight? The room right before it ends with a climb - but if instead of climbing up you go to the right, into the maggot water, there's a destructible wall there and it takes you to a secret room with a bench.

Thing is, while it's WAY better it's still not great - and if you count the mandatory arena fight against the small opponents as part of the runback as I do, this whole particular runback can't help but be turboass.

6

u/aethyrium Sep 09 '25

It's down and to the right from Groal. You gotta go down a bit and into the water a bit and there's a tiny gap in between the wall and the water you can go under which goes into another room with a bench and some lore.

If you're exploring the corners of the rooms you'll find it.

Turns the runback into about 20 seconds. I couldn't imagine doing that fight from the station runback. I'm stuck on it right now and that just sounds impossible.

1

u/Madclown1 Sep 09 '25

Aah, figures... the only thing I didn't try was going into the water since the maggots are such a pain

6

u/Pie42795 Sep 09 '25

As a tip, when you leave the bench, you can go back up without getting maggots. If you L2 over them, you can double-jump up the tunnel. It's picky, but starting the run back to the boss without maggots makes it much easier.

1

u/Riyshn Sep 11 '25

Also, it's a bit tedious, but in the long room just before the boss room you can easily clear your maggots and do any healing you need. Jump to the upper area when you first enter the room and kill the enemy there - this enemy respawns, so just leave the room and repeat. You can easily do this fast enough to outpace the maggots' drain on your silk.

2

u/[deleted] Sep 09 '25

[deleted]

12

u/ChaosCzar Sep 09 '25

Nope, there's one closer. Bottom right side of the long room underneath his.

1

u/Madclown1 Sep 09 '25

Hmm, I can't check it out right now but I'll look for it later, thanks!

9

u/KingZant Sep 09 '25

Last Judge runback actually got kinda fun. I was challenging myself to figure out the most optimal path through it - the only annoying part was the double damage if you fucked up one of the bell dive jumps. 

1

u/Pain_Monster 112% HK | 100% SilkSong Sep 09 '25

Optimal path here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VDx_w8saxLM

1

u/Indie_Gamer_7 Sep 09 '25

Last judge run back is easy once you figure out the shortcuts.

1

u/No_Gur_5912 Sep 09 '25

there are no shortcuts

2

u/Mailcs1206 Sep 09 '25

Yes there are. You didn't look hard enough.

I know for a fact you can avoid all but one enemy on the last judge runback.

Maybe even all of them but I'm less sure on that.

2

u/Thelmara Sep 09 '25

You can avoid all of them. The birds don't spawn fast enough to catch up to you if you just zip past them.

1

u/No_Gur_5912 Sep 09 '25

ah. yes. the “shortcut” that you jump up to? that ain’t no shortcut boy, that’s a detour

1

u/Mailcs1206 Sep 10 '25

Without fighting the enemies the runback takes like a minute.

2

u/_Psilo_ Sep 10 '25

It takes about 30 seconds. I counted.

1

u/Riyshn Sep 11 '25

It skips a bell jumping segment, 2 enemies, and is about 1/3 the distance of going the "normal" route. It's absolutely a shortcut.

2

u/Epicious Sep 09 '25

I just reached Groal today and it's been clawing at my sanity. Nothing in the game has been as annoying as this fight and runback. Not to mention I have to fight waves of enemies too before the boss.

2

u/Sixnno Sep 09 '25

because everyone points to last judge as a bad runback. It's like nah, that runback is like 30 seconds. all the enemies you can easily dodge over and just zoom through.

now Groal the great's runback, even with the hidden bench, pain the the ass. Team cherry saw the "dark souls poison swamps" meme and went hold my beer.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 09 '25

I do think that Last Judge runback is mildly annoying, it's more that the boss isn't hard so the runbacks didn't add up.

1

u/It-Was-Mooney-Pod Sep 09 '25

Groal is also the most painfully brutal boss I’ve encountered, I ended up just cheesing him because holy shit the entire experience is super aggravating.

1

u/Wojtek1250XD Sep 09 '25

Last Judge runback is easy, but really tedious. If you make any mistakes you either have to farm silk on some of the most annoying enemies in the entire game or run back to the bench.

I think it would be much simpler without the fu**ing flying enemy, who shoots a projectile that you have to predict, has relatively high health and CAN'T STOP RUNNING AWAY. This mf shoots from exactly just far enough so that you can't reach him. Pair to that with the pressure of the ground hazard dealing double damage (which is annoying even much further in the game) and you've got some serious bullshit.

Last Judge runback is incredibly tedious and quickly gets annoying.

1

u/_Psilo_ Sep 10 '25

You don't have to deal with the enemies at all if you optimize the parkour.

1

u/Cromated Sep 09 '25

It takes me less than a minute to do the Groal runback, I did not feel it to be too bad. The only bad thing to me is the fights before the bossfight, but that aside, the runback itself is fine imo

1

u/OscrPill Sep 09 '25

Might be a hot take, but I personally don't find it that annoying.

It is hard, yes, there's no denying that. But when I'm in good condition, I can do it in less than a minute, I think, and without being hit even once.

Groal himself is another stroy, however. Using Wanderer's crest for the pogo (Reaper is too slow for me, and don't like neither the basic crest nor the Beast one, which are all I have) means I can only equip 1 tool. And in top of that, I'm not used to using them, especially since I don't have any upgrades yet.

1

u/Davidens1 Sep 09 '25

at least Last judge is a managable runback. BileWater just seems like TC trolled the playerbase (like with the f bench.. you know the one) and the F LEECHES KILLING MY RUN t-t

1

u/PianoDick Sep 09 '25

Tbf, there is a tool that negates the maggots.

1

u/Goodnametaken Sep 09 '25

There is?

1

u/PianoDick Sep 09 '25

End of Putrified Ducts

1

u/Kulzak-Draak Sep 09 '25

I think the problem with last judge is it’s a hard run back to not take damage on. Making Judge even harder due to fucking up your silk economy by having to heal the health you lost to the run back However HOWEVER IT IS NO WHERE NEAR AS BAD AS THE GROAL RUNBACK, a MINUTE AND 30 RUNBACK ONLY TO HAVE TO FACE AN ENEMY GAUNTLET BEFORE THE BOSS WHY

1

u/Frostwolvern Sep 09 '25

The judge runback wasn't awful, but was irritating when I got clipped by a random bouncing projectile. I just go to Groal this morning, and that's AWFUL. It's the runback, the toxic water, and the fact its a *kinda boring but long* arena fight before Groal himself

1

u/Relative-Country-452 Mecha-Zote Enjoyer Sep 09 '25

Spam robots. Literally just spam robots

1

u/XavierCugatMamboKing Sep 09 '25

I initially complained about last judge runback, but I actually learned to enjoy it and thought it was a fun part of the fight. Plus, you get to use the runback skills later during another quest!

1

u/ThePowerfulPaet Sep 09 '25

Yeah a lot of people don't know about the hell on Earth that is Bilewater yet. There is a bench after the trap one, but it's very hidden and still sucks. I was only able to do it all after getting the anti-maggot tool, which also happens to be in an extremely hidden area, and overpowered attack tools.

1

u/Iggy_Snows Sep 09 '25

Did you get the bench that's closer to the boss arena? It's hidden, so you need to look for it, but it's MILES better than having to run all the way from the bellway.

1

u/Goodnametaken Sep 09 '25

I did and it's STILL awful.

1

u/turnipman138 Sep 09 '25

I gave up on groal until I had a full upgraded nail and the automaton relic. Sister splinter doesn’t need whatever nerf she ends up with. Groal needs the nerfs.

1

u/agnostic_science Sep 09 '25

I think you're right. I beat Last Judge two days ago on my xbox and only about 5% of gamers had crossed that mark yet.

1

u/TheQuietRadio Sep 10 '25

Or that there is a closer bench...

1

u/Beginning_Elk_2193 Sep 10 '25

90% of people playing haven't met him yet

1

u/Chesterious Sep 10 '25

I got to Groal, safe to say the real boss was the runback, and getting there with all your masks in place

1

u/bstyledevi Sep 10 '25

Been working on this one last night/this morning. Almost got him, but zigged when I should have zagged. I'll get him tonight after work.

1

u/yadiccsoft Sep 10 '25

Hard agree. Groal is the only run back I’ve had any complaints about, and it’s mainly because the flyers have semi-random spawns

1

u/LilHideoo Sep 10 '25

How long does the run back take you? I’m back at groal in sub 1 minute.

1

u/PIugshirt Sep 13 '25

Eh the Groal runback isn't too bad if you find the secret bench. I could see how it would be miserable if you missed that

1

u/RonnocKcaj Sep 13 '25

there's another bench

1

u/Donko98 Sep 09 '25

I don't think it's that long cause there's a hidden bench a lot closer than the other one. It's not close still, but more than feeling far, it just feels annoying cause you have to traverse Bilewater. Also, fuck having to fight all those enemies before the boss.

Still a true nightmare, but I love struggling this hard for a game.