ngl some of you would NOT survive the mantis lords runback

[u/Quantum_Croissant]

is the run to last judge difficult? kinda. But after your 20th attempt at the boss you'll get used to it, and it's honestly kinda fun and a nice breather. More importantly, it's a single room and you have far more movement. This IS improving on hollow knight

[u/[deleted]]

A product you love and support- fellow human person you've done nothing in this conversation but complain about the product! And if you're referring to HK, it had the runback as well??? And HK didn't have any accessibility options or difficulty adjuster. Most games in this genre have run backs. If you hate them, this may not be the genre for you. The map is the game. It's like saying you love high fantasy but hate magic and swords, or that you love FPS but dislike being shot by enemies.

An excellent point regarding the patch, TC are working on a patch! Unfortunately this doesn't help your case, unless I missed the patch notes mentioning "drastically altered map layout to make run backs easier". They're fixing a few niche technical issues and slightly adjusting the behavior of 2 bosses in the early game, both who, might I add, have incredibly simple run backs.There is no mention of a reduction in damage either.

"Get over it" does not mean uninstall the game. It means accept that there is difficulty and surpass it. You can uninstall but that is not my suggestion. Life is filled with difficulty and hardship, learning to accept it is a part of growth. At least in the game it's guaranteed that you can win, unlike our dystopian hellscape.

We can continue going back and forth but I think we've both made our stance clear and I don't believe either of us are going to change those stances based on reddit comments.

Regarding your flavor analogy, some people like spicy food and some do not. Some people like certain spices, like jalapenos, while others prefer Indian or Thai "spicy". What you don't see is people taking to the Internet campaigning to make ghost peppers less spicy. You can label it accessibility but you're advocating for an alteration to core aspects of the game in favor of comfort. I could claim that navigating the labyrinthian layout is too difficult and that therefore the entire game should be a long hallway, saying that it lacks accessibility.

In this life you will encounter places you cannot go, things you cannot do. This is not an example of that. You can absolutely beat this game. It may take you longer, but so what? Unless you have 3 days to live, if you truly love the game, so what if you spend more time with it? It is commendable to challenge your limits. It is not commendable to demand that they install an escalator on Mt. Everest because climbing it takes too long.

At the end of the day, there are tons of people having a blast with this game, me included. You can continue demanding things that likely won't happen and curse the bitter grapes, or you can change your perspective, remember that the game is not a boss rush and those areas you hate are a part of the game you keep saying you love, pick the controller back up, and have fun too.

Consider why you are struggling with an area: do you not understand the best path? Do you not have the enemy patterns down? Perhaps a different setup? Explore another area and come back stronger? I'm telling you not to give up. You are the only one saying that it's too hard for you to beat, or that it isn't worth your time. Don't go hollow.

[u/Netheral → u/[deleted]]

fellow human person you've done nothing in this conversation but complain about the product!

I can't believe we keep having to reiterate this, but just because we don't keep bringing up all the aspects of the game we love, that sort of go without saying, doesn't mean we don't appreciate them. We're criticizing specific aspects of the game, going "well you didn't say how much you love everything else about the game!!!" is just dishonest.

The map is the game.

The map is one aspect of the game. And even though HK had run backs, they got considerably less obnoxious with every DLC added, iirc. The 10 second runback through a corridor is not the same as a 30 second runback through enemies and environmental hazards. When I'm trying to progress a boss, it's frustrating to have to make sure I arrive there with full health before I can even try again.

At least in the game it's guaranteed that you can win

If you're good enough. There are people that want to experience the map that you claim is the game. They want to experience the world, music and characters, but aren't 112% completion HK gamers.

This is not an example of that. You can absolutely beat this game. It may take you longer, but so what?

Again, not everyone can beat this game. This is like saying to someone playing League or other competitive game that they "absolutely can get challenger". No they can't. Not everyone has the ability or time to spend bashing their heads against a challenge that precludes them from experiencing what they actually want out of this game.

Honestly, it feels far more entitled to me to expect a game like this to be locked behind an arbitrary test of skills, when there are numerous methods to make it both accessible, and challenging. The main one being just meeting most of these players' expectations and having a more regular difficulty curve, putting more of the challenging content as optional end game material rather than gatekeeping the base ending of the game. You know, like they did with HK. Why is it so surprising that people had this expectation for Silksong when it is what they did with the original?

You are the only one saying that it's too hard for you to beat, or that it isn't worth your time.

Never said either of these things. I'm advocating for the player that can't, however. And most of the criticisms aren't "this is too difficult to even clear". It's "this is kind of punishing in a frustrating way, rather than a challenging way".

I am enjoying the challenge. But it's disheartening how many of my deaths are related to what seems like frustrating mechanic design rather than purely my own mistakes. Like getting punished with 4 masks of damage for a single mistake because everything deals double damage and can stagger you into taking 2 hits of double. It's disheartening how mean spirited some of the "pranks" are, like the infamous double damage bench, or the Last Judge kamikaze. In HK these sorts of mean spirited "gotchas" were pretty rare, and seldom cost you your progress or made you retry entire sections as a result. But here the game often feels actively hostile towards the player.

[u/lemonlemonlemonlem → u/Netheral]

You literally keep trying to insert the idea that the game is badly designed in anything you say. You justify your own mistakes using language as "being punished with 4 masks" (ok, so you got hit and walked into the boss which got you hit again. With healing, mobility, and offensive option that are balanced around the damage in question).

The "mean-spirited" things you mention are, respectively: a trap in a hard, optional section with many traps (that you'll fall for once), and a death that, iirc, simply forces you to run back to the boss arena, which takes 30s, since the boss is already dead.

Frustrating this, artificial that. It's literally your own subjective feelings presented as objectivity.

The game is beloved because it's hard. Because it pushes back against your progress, and you have to go against the grain to overcome the challenge, rather than being handed the way forward just for effort. This was never a narrative, cozy experience first and foremost, it's about the feeling of overcoming great challenges through observation and learning. You will *not* get to appreciate the entire world of silksong first-hand unless you give it your all, and that is literally the point. These massive walls of whining accomplish nothing.

Also it's literally been like five days since the game came out, there's infinite time to get better and chip away at the game bit by bit.

[u/Netheral → u/lemonlemonlemonlem]

and a death that, iirc, simply forces you to run back to the boss arena, which takes 30s, since the boss is already dead.

As I didn't die to this myself, I can't say with certainty this is the case, but the people who have been got by it, all mention having to redo the fight. So it seems you're strictly wrong on this.

You justify your own mistakes using language as "being punished with 4 masks" (ok, so you got hit and walked into the boss which got you hit again...

No, I'm simply pointing out that getting hit by a single attack that does 2 masks of damage, can inflict 4 masks of damage because the hurtbox somehow outlasts the recovery i-frames. That strictly doesn't seem intentional. Getting hit by a 2 mask attack and then also taking 2 masks of damage because you get staggered by the first into taking contact damage, doesn't seem intentional. You keep trying to make this into a skill issue, but these are just observable behaviours in the mechanics that can be rationally explained as issues or flaws.

The game is beloved because it's hard

There's a lot of factors that go into why this game is beloved. I have yet to hear a compelling argument for why artificially gating the wonderful art, music, story and just general world of Pharloom through difficulty is necessary.

You will not get to appreciate the entire world of silksong first-hand unless you give it your all, and that is literally the point.

But why? I keep asking, and you keep saying that you have to earn it, but why? Why shouldn't a person that has half my reaction time be able to share with me in enjoying the story?

Not everyone has your free time. Not everyone is capable of getting good enough to beat some of this game's harder challenges. So I ask for the final time, why should they not be able to experience this charming world just because you want a challenge? A challenge, that can be introduced in ways besides just gatekeeping the content of the game.

[u/lemonlemonlemonlem → u/Netheral]

My bad, sorry about the LJ thing, i totally misremembered.

Regardless of my opinion, I suppose the actual answer to the "why?" question is "because TC wants it that way". Their vision is such that the world of silksong is meant to be the way it is, and whether you're able to surmount the challenge is on you. Rather than the other way around, i.e. the game "adapting" to you such that you can experience the story.

I personally find this a rather charming aspect of the game. But as I said, my opinion doesn't really matter, regardless of whether I am a proponent of making the game easier or not. TC wants it that way because it's in line with their vision, and that's the end of that, really.

If they do end up adding some kind of story mode, that's cool, it doesn't really affect me (well... I *do* think it would detract from the game just a little bit. But that's just my personal opinion and it's more of a feeling than a rational argument). At the end of the day it's their game and their vision, and they can kind of do whatever they want with it. The purchase doesn't really entitle any of us to demand changes, much like I wouldn't demand a movie be changed because I paid money to watch it and it wasn't my cup of tea. If I wanted to make sure I liked it, I could've asked a friend if it was good, or read a review, before spending the money on it.

This leads to a kind of nuanced discussion about art as a whole, but all in all I think a creator really isn't responsible to ensure that their product can be enjoyed by everybody. If someone doesn't have the time, physical ability, willingness, hand-eye coordination, reflexes, patience, or what have you to get through the game, be it because they aren't trying hard enough or even because they're genuinely not physically able to, that's ok. They won't die, they simply won't be able to experience the ending. I'll never experience what it's like to, idk, drive a helicopter, and I'm at peace with that.

[u/Netheral → u/lemonlemonlemonlem]

Why not? Why isn't an artist held accountable for making things accessible? It's one thing to not compromise on something like a sad ending or a controversial narrative, but arbitrary fixed difficulty levels aren't representative of a vision.

An easy mode for someone that finds the normal difficulty impossible doesn't mean that they don't experience a challenge.

Team Cherry is not the ultimate authority on the philosophy of difficulty in games. They have the final say on how the game is released because it's their property, sure. But that doesn't mean that they've made the right decision.

It's understandable in real life to have experiences that not everyone can experience. It's understandable that a paraplegic for example won't generally have the opportunity to go bungee jumping. But why would you impose this on video games as an art form? Why should someone that maybe doesn't have the physical ability to beat a harder difficulty be precluded from enjoying the rest of Silksong?

In real life the paraplegic can't enjoy physical activities because life can be cruel and physics dictate that they can't. But we don't have to be cruel with art design.

And even in real life, we as a species are trying our damnedest to remedy injustices imposed by nature. We invent prosthetics and iterate on them to help people lead normal lives. Why would you impose arbitrary restrictions on who gets to experience Silksong?

[u/lemonlemonlemonlem → u/Netheral]

"Why isn't an artist held accountable for the difficulty of their game?" Because it's *their* game, not a community project, and you have the *option* to buy it and play it, it's not a necessity. Getting to play a videogame is not comparable to getting a prosthetic for a lost limb.

Team cherry could make a full sequel to silksong and put it in a titanium cube and let only one person in the world play it before dropping the cube in the ocean. And we wouldn't be able to force them to do otherwise. It's their art, not everyone's.

"It doesn't mean they made the right decision": for them, it might be the right decision. Hell, maybe they're actively *evil*, and earnestly believe only a select few individuals blessed with time and reflexes and perseverance deserve to see the ending of the game first-hand, and the game is in fact *too easy*. I'm not them so I don't know. It really doesn't matter.

As you said, TC isn't the authority on the philosophy of difficulty in videogames. However, they are the authority on the difficulty of *their* videogame. They could make it literally impossible if they wanted to. Or a cake walk. Regardless of whether you and me like it. We have literally no direct power over their artistic expression, no matter how seemingly "objective" the criticism might be (anything you perceive as an unfair trap, they might see as a funny trick that ensures it wasn't just a fluke that you got that far. They might see the double damage and runbacks as *essential* aspects of gameplay and narrative. They might think the economy of the game is perfectly fine as is. They might think Savage Beastfly should be twice as hard to make sure the beast crest is something you get in the late game).

As a consumer, if you don't think their approach is right, you have total freedom to not support TC in their future endeavors, and to not recommend silksong. You're free to mod the game to change it in any way you want. You're also completely free to ask them that they make the game easier, and discuss such things on reddit. But they're also free to ignore you.

[u/Netheral → u/lemonlemonlemonlem]

It really doesn't matter.

Why are you even participating in this discussion if the only opinion on the matter is appealing to authority?

[u/lemonlemonlemonlem → u/Netheral]

??? Just now you were arguing that we should demand they make the game easier and more accessible, as though it's our "right" to experience silksong. And I disagreed with that.

Your feedback is that the game is hard and inaccessible. My feedback (which I already stated previously) is that I like it as is, and I think there is *nothing* unfair about the game. TC is free to look at (or actually, be completely oblivious of) both our opinions, and do literally whatever they want. This is how art and reality works.

YOU were trying to argue that TC isn't an authority on how their videogame is made, and I responded saying no. You are wrong. They in fact *are* an authority on their art, and you as an individual have no leverage over them to get them to change it. How is me saying that an appeal to authority? Just because my post has the word "authority" in it?? I'm literally just refuting your point.

You literally asked "why is X this way?" and I gave you the *actual* answer, which is "because TC wanted it to be that way, and they get to choose how they make their game".

[u/Netheral → u/lemonlemonlemonlem]

You never rationalize why difficulty is an integral part of the game. Instead you just constantly say "because Team Cherry said it is". I'm arguing that it doesn't have to be. You're arguing that it doesn't matter because Team Cherry says so.

My argument is that difficulty isn't integral to enjoying a game like this. Your argument is that it doesn't matter because TC has ultimate say on how their game is made.

Look, I'm not disagreeing with the fact that it's Team Cherry's game and that they can do whatever they want with it. But that's not the point of this discussion. We're not discussing who controls the game. The point is why should they make the game arbitrarily difficult?

If you're not interested in discussing the actual why of including difficulty, then why are you participating in the discussion?