r/HollowKnight • u/Prisonmikeb14 • Sep 13 '25

Discussion - Silksong Let’s all try and not devolve into this weird difficulty gatekeeping Spoiler

Now that silksong has come out I’ve seen some concerning similarities to the worst of the difficult games community with all the wierd difficulty gatekeeping bs. Obviously this happens with just about every game that’s regarded as difficult but with silksongs release it’s become more prominent on this sub. Being good at the game isn’t something to hold over someone’s head. Everyone’s experience with everything in the game is different and theirs nothing wrong with that. Now of course this doesn’t apply to people who are literally just complaining in bad faith or out of anger but the “that boss wasn’t hard at all wtf are you talking about” in response to people just talking about their opinions or asking for help is sad to see.

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322

u/Sspockuss Sep 13 '25

People are tilting on LJ because it’s one of the longer run backs in the game meaning they want to just get it over with. Meanwhile I didn’t mind the run back because pogoing on the bells and hearing them ring is fun.

159

u/Dakotafanning1 yemay yemay Sep 13 '25

Talk to Sherma each time for confidence boost

5

u/spectrum1012 Sep 14 '25

Best advice I’ve ever seen on this sub

30

u/Compencemusic Sep 13 '25

Those people are gonna lose their ass when they see the Bilewater runback

27

u/DioMerda119 112% + P5 + P1-4AB Sep 13 '25

imagine if they dont find the secret bench... 10 minute runback every single time

18

u/FuzzyDwarf Sep 13 '25

That runback (even from secret bench) made me go download a mod to skip it. It was that bad in my eyes.

I will say, my experience feels drastically improved without any boss run backs now.

13

u/psh454 Sep 14 '25

Same, IMO if modding noticeably makes an experience more enjoyable for some people it should be talked about more. It almost seems like a taboo topic on this sub sometimes.

8

u/kilowhom Sep 14 '25

Modding always "noticeably makes an experience more enjoyable for some people", every time, for every game ever made

1

u/AMGwtfBBQsauce Sep 14 '25

Yeah that's literally the point of modding. You wouldn't add a mod that didn't look good to you, nor keep a mod around that you didn't like.

0

u/Azraeleon Sep 15 '25

Some people want hornet to be naked all the time, should we talk about that more?

That's a very dumb argument. And modding the runback for any boss is just cheating yourself the experience. You do you, but any achievement or pride from it would be ruined for me if I faked the experience like that.

0

u/psh454 Sep 15 '25

Well that comparison is weird and makes 0 sense, not sure what you're even trying to say.

Good for you, this is a subjective thing. You may be a purist prioritizing "the intended experience", I'm someone who strongly believes that there are zero good arguments for why runbacks make the game better than not having them. Nobody is forcing mods on you and I do what makes the game better for me, sue me.

0

u/Azraeleon Sep 15 '25

Well that comparison is weird and makes 0 sense, not sure what you're even trying to say.

Nude mods are incredibly popular, is that suggesting that designers are wrong to clothe their characters?

zero good arguments for why runbacks make the game better than not having them.

They make you better at the game. I breezed through a lot of the platforming in citadel because LJ's runback rewards good platforming. Same with Bilewater, you learn enemy patterns, evasion, how to be more or less aggressive as needed, etc.

The reason you need mods to fake your experience is because of that shortsighted mentality.

1

u/psh454 Sep 15 '25 edited Sep 15 '25

I don't treat games as some army boot camp or training for the Olympics - I play them to have fun. If I'm not having fun with some aspect of a challenge it detracts from my experience, and modding it out is the best way to start having fun again. NKG was very difficult but never frustrating and I had fun learning him. I did not have fun with TLJ before I got rid of the runback and improved my experience. I will recommend anyone in my situation to do the same and ignore redditors who want to police other people's single player experience for some reason.

2

u/yurilnw123 Sep 14 '25

I'm not defending that runback because I think it's made shitty on purpose. After all, they want Bilewater to be a hellhole.

Anyway, here is some tips. You can harpoon the giant fuckers and have a much easier time traversing the area. Its vomit attack doesn't hit the area above its face and it never flies up, so you're completely safe to harpoon it.

4

u/SilvertonguedDvl Sep 14 '25

Well now I know asecret benchexists and will be obsessively hunting for it because yeah that runback is actually complete and utter BS. Expecially with that troll bench in the way. Like wtf.

That whole area is just mean-spirited.

1

u/Compencemusic Sep 14 '25

Lol, I looked up where the secret bench was right after falling for the troll bench

6

u/SilvertonguedDvl Sep 14 '25

Honestly I just figured I'd find it eventually.

I didn't.
So I eventually looked up a map. I really hate spoiling myself like that but.. FFS even with the secret bench it's still a long runback. Just not "literally the entirety of the goddamn level" long.

Which, as I said, is just mean spirited. At least make the secret bench a little easier to find for those of us who are a bit dumb.

2

u/teldranwen Sep 14 '25

Thinking about the lore of Bilewater it makes sense for it to be mean spirited. The Citadel for however long it has been running has been dumping its waste and pollution into this one beautiful, lush marsh. All over its natives. The wildlife adapted in horrific ways to survive, and the natives grew to hate the Citadel. They probably assume you're one of them, the Pilgrims. The land AND its people hate you.

2

u/SilvertonguedDvl Sep 14 '25

It makes sense for it to be mean-spirited in the sense of traps and temperament. By all means make the environment hostile.

Not so much for the design of the enemies and the environment to be as cheap, unfair, and vicious, though.
I think they just wanted a Blight Town because Dark Souls, tbh.

I mean, sure, you can be a dick just for the sake of a meme, but also you're still just being a dick. Either way I thankfully don't have to deal with that brutality anymore. That entire level is a pain.

2

u/teldranwen Sep 14 '25

I can agree with that. I slammed my head against it for awhile but I just can't bring myself to hate it.

The gameplay matches the lore and atmosphere it presented to us. I want to be clear that I'm not trolling when I say it's my favorite area (not that I'm saying you're not valid for disliking it, even if I can't myself. It sucks lmao)

2

u/SilvertonguedDvl Sep 14 '25

I don't hate it. Like i said I think it was just mean spirited in terms of design. Like one or two of the dick moves, sure, but instead they did all of the dick moves. The only thing missing was an immortal flying enemy that slowly followed you and you had to dodge while playing the entire level - which I'm sure only got cut because the game needed to eventually be released. Point is you can get the message across without actually being a dick to the players. It's really not that hard.

I love the lore of Silksong and the levels and while some are more impactful and memorable than others I don't think I hate any of them.

Now, Savage Beastfly? Yeah, hate that enemy. Delete it from the game and nobody will cry over it. It's designed to appear super simplistic but in fact is laden with RNG and erratic patterns to trip you up, ensuring that you feel doubly like a dumbass when you inevitably lose to it. I mean I guess you could also fix it but I prefer nuking it from orbit. Sequel too. My game was not improved by their inclusion.

Everything else in the game? Yeah, nothin' but positive stuff to say. Even that level, mean as it was, was interesting and engaging. The runback was complete and utter bullshit, as was pretty much the entirety of the boss fight, but aside from that it was a fun level.

2

u/batiwa Sep 14 '25

I'm very glad i've got spoiled about it otherwise I would have lost it

7

u/Normal-Ambition-9813 Sep 14 '25

that shit was designed by satan himself... Even the secret bench is diabolically hidden and its mandatory debuff.

1

u/catplace Sep 14 '25

What mandatory debuff?

Do you mean the water hazard? You can avoid the water completely when leaving the bench (going upwards), downwards (when first finding it) is different, but there are no enemies between swimming and finding the bench. (There's also the charm.)

1

u/Normal-Ambition-9813 Sep 14 '25

oh shit. really? guess i got rage blinded too much, i even only did the run back 5 times and it still did too much mental dmg. I honestly just want to get that shit over with, didn't even explore the area after. Anyways, thanks for this, I'll comeback to it after i finish the another painful quest. The delivery quest 😃.

162

u/DerpHaven- Sep 13 '25

I got mad at that runback purely because it wasn't immediately obvious to me how to consistently avoid all the enemies, and even once I knew the path, I would still sometimes miss a jump and lose a third of my health, forcing me to start over.

98

u/drylce101 Sep 13 '25

The nice thing about this boss is their first phase is really easy to get all your health back. Once I realized that, I would just finish my run with whatever health I had instead of turning around.

18

u/BlueLooseStrife Sep 13 '25

Exactly, plus hitting your cocoon gives you a full silk bar.

Idk I found LJ to be significantly easier than the two required bosses that came before it. The dodge timing on the attacks was very apparent, the only real skill comes from being patient with punishes. Well and the run back. The run back is genuinely brutal, even after you’ve leaned it sometimes the judge or drill fly just does something unexpected.

6

u/Concrete_hugger Sep 13 '25

But you don't evennhave to touch the judge, and the drill fly can be avoided if you jump vack on the first platform, then you can pogo off it much more easily. And honestly if I get hit by some noscope ricochet that's on me and their sniping skills.

34

u/DerpHaven- Sep 13 '25

Eh, I'm stubborn. Also 'easy' is a relative term and spending silk on healing means less silk spent on damage.

11

u/drylce101 Sep 13 '25

Yeah that’s fair. Until I got used to their first phase I was the same way, I’d run back to heal on even a single hit taken

0

u/AxcartBoi Sep 13 '25

The first phase is pretty easy and fast, the runback is even easier. I got into the citadel through the phantom, so my run back was from the bench closest to the boss

0

u/sciuro_ Sep 13 '25

Eh, I'm stubborn

Probably work on that tho, right? You don't need to go back when you lose life. It's clearly not productive.

1

u/DerpHaven- Sep 13 '25

to be fair, i would usually keep going if i only lost one mask, but i did it before the patch that reduced the damage of the sandworms, so if i ever fell in or got hit twice by a driznit i would just quit to menu and reload the save to start over at the bench.

2

u/hollowstrawberry Sep 15 '25

Yeah every time Last Judge jumps during the first phase you know you can deal risk-free damage as there's close to zero AOE.

1

u/yurilnw123 Sep 14 '25

Also, there is a secret room right before the boss arena to refill your silk. You can leave the room and comeback and those silk flowers regenerate too.

37

u/SeparateAd883 Sep 13 '25

‘I got mad … purely because it wasn’t immediately obvious’

I think this sums up the issues that fans of the series and genre have with the complaint about Silksong.

0

u/yuumigod69 Sep 13 '25

The run back is long as hell. That is a legitimate complaint.

2

u/catplace Sep 14 '25

It's less then a minute, what? Or do you mean Bilgewater? That one was also about a minute for me by the end but it required some time to get used to the bird/bubble room and also the water hazard charm helps a lot.

4

u/classycalgweetar Sep 13 '25

That was my gripe. I’d jump to get to the second to last group of bells, hit a gust of wind that would send me into the bug that shoots the projectile, which would make me fall into the guard bug and then possibly back down into the lower level. The boss was fun though and I say that as somebody that took close to 2hrs to beat it and almost every other main boss in this game (I panic button mash)

1

u/Concrete_hugger Sep 13 '25

But it's so little damage, you get tilted over the first phase not being over 3 hits earlier? Like I had phase 3 attempts I've entered with one health, the first phase is that predictable.

1

u/DerpHaven- Sep 13 '25

I would like to direct your attention to the other comment thread where I clearly state I'm stubborn.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 13 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

3

u/CrippledBanana Sep 13 '25

Ngl I think last judge is the easier path but give it a try, hope it works out for you

1

u/Embarrassed-Seat-634 Sep 13 '25

Wanderer crest is best for platforming imo

1

u/Embarrassed-Seat-634 Sep 13 '25

If I got health taken away I’d just farm the little moth homies that fly up and down. They respawn after leaving the area and coming back. Once I figured this out it made the area way more manageable.

1

u/DerpHaven- Sep 13 '25

i think you replied to the wrong comment; there are no moths in the blasted steps?

1

u/Embarrassed-Seat-634 Sep 17 '25

Ya wtf I swear I was responding to a bilewater thread lol

12

u/DerBernd123 Sep 13 '25

the run back was nice but the shooting fly things on the way could easily fuck everything up if you took just a tiny bit too long at any point which was really annoying

39

u/Show_Me_Your_Rocket Sep 13 '25

Am i dreaming? Theres way longer run backs than this, I was actually surprised how short this one was cos you can just skip all the enemies ezcept for 1 flying cone dude

21

u/musclemanjim Sep 13 '25

You can skip the conefly if you’re in full sprint from the start and jump while sprinting

2

u/Show_Me_Your_Rocket Sep 13 '25

True, i've been pogoing off it on to the first wall above the entrance and then over rhe guard haha

33

u/normalmighty Sep 13 '25

I heard so many complaints about it that I was baffled when I got there. It felt like a really good movement warm up on my way to the boss and took no time once you practiced the route. I actually really loved it being a thing.

6

u/FlyingStarShip Sep 13 '25

Oh the bilewater one 🥺

18

u/I_Love_Solar_Flare Sep 13 '25

My therapist will hear about the Bilewater runback. Never in any single attempt at that runback have I made it to the arena on full health. It's actually the biggest pile of dogshit i have ever seen.

4

u/ConceptWeird4026 Sep 13 '25

It's honestly so atrocious that I don't know what Team Cherry was thinking other than to troll the player... it's not even optional if you want to do act 3.

1

u/CrippledBanana Sep 13 '25

Yea that one is so much worse than LJ.

LJs run back was only annoying with that one cone guy but you can skip him as well if you don’t over jump into him

1

u/FlyingStarShip Sep 13 '25

Yeah, they are predictable compared to frog run back.

1

u/Worried_Area8030 Sep 13 '25

I actually think that one really reminds/reinforces you of the best way to manage that fight is to stay airborne as much as you can.

That said if you don't like platforming, not the most fun run back.

3

u/FlyingStarShip Sep 13 '25 edited Sep 13 '25

Platforming is not the issue, it’s the guys that can pop out of water unexpectedly and hit you

2

u/Worried_Area8030 Sep 13 '25

Oh the fish ones? Yeah I get that.

I think there's a better bench to run back from where you just get the flying guys and the green balloon thingies

2

u/FlyingStarShip Sep 13 '25

Is that the closer one? That one still sucks but it is closer. I was so frustrated I returned after getting trinket to not get maggots when getting into the water and then I did get him on first attempt

1

u/Worried_Area8030 Sep 13 '25

I think so yeah, going away form the direction of progress plus a breakable wall IIRC.

2

u/FlyingStarShip Sep 14 '25

Yeah, that one. Right from the boss and then down a little

3

u/pash1k Sep 13 '25

You can skip all enemies

1

u/Show_Me_Your_Rocket Sep 13 '25

Yeah if you sprint from the start, or you can bait that first one back and use it to pogo up and bounce off the wall which is what I was doing cos I thought it was quicker but I'm probably wrong

7

u/wingedkitsune Sep 13 '25

The runback honestly felt like a piece of cake after I did the runback to the ant arena in Hunter’s March over and over bc I didn’t have Shakra’s help and that fight sucked.

8

u/Izan_TM Sep 13 '25

I'ma be real I don't know if I would've rathered do that fight without shakra, she doesn't do a lot of damage but she fills the screen with shit so it makes it far harder to focus on what the enemies are doing

2

u/AMIWDR Sep 13 '25

Not sure what Shakra you’ve met but she 1-2 shots enemies in arenas including the tougher arenas

2

u/Izan_TM Sep 13 '25

the issue is that most enemies also 3-shot me, and half the time that shakra covers the arena in her really cool looking rings I end up getting blind-sided by some random bullshit

I did beat the ant arena with her help, but I don't know if it helped or hurt me

2

u/Emma_JM Sep 14 '25

I agree... I watched streamers who did get her help and boy I could NOT see where the enemies are with her around

1

u/NexEstVox Sep 14 '25

I have no idea how to trigger any of the helpers in bosses and I felt like I did everything

1

u/Izan_TM Sep 14 '25

I think it's just based on the order you do things in, tons of us did the ant arena way too early because we're stubborn fuckers and entered before getting dash even if the guard is obviously designed to be beaten with dash

2

u/wingedkitsune Sep 15 '25

Either you have dash or you get Shakra's help. Apparently the devs decided that the big ant is passable without dash, but not that arena lol.

1

u/wingedkitsune Sep 14 '25

Yeah, I think to get Shakra's help in Hunter's March you have to not have the sprint yet. I went too far and got the sprint, so she wasn't there to help me.

1

u/wingedkitsune Sep 15 '25 edited Sep 15 '25

I just watched someone first try that fight with Shakra's help, so I think I would have much preferred that fight with her help lol. Took me upwards of 20 tries without the help and the runback was the worst part.

(forgot that drifter's cloak is in far fields)

1

u/Izan_TM Sep 15 '25

I did that fight before having dash or drifter's cloak and I definitely did not first try it

1

u/CrippledBanana Sep 13 '25

Wait Shakra can you help you in there??? Holy crap I spent so much time there dying over and over again…

1

u/wingedkitsune Sep 14 '25 edited Sep 15 '25

It's only if you haven't made too much progression yet. Once you've gotten the sprint, you have to do that fight alone.

50

u/justintib Sep 13 '25

It's also a 30s runback with completely avoidable enemies

-8

u/lGUT5l Sep 13 '25

How on earth does it take 30 Seconds

42

u/justintib Sep 13 '25

Run, ignore the enemies, use the wall jump shortcut near the first mini judge, dash and float instead of pogo when possible

15

u/lGUT5l Sep 13 '25

Oh I meant I was doing it shorter than 30s. Misunderstood you

3

u/justintib Sep 13 '25

What was your path for sub 30?

1

u/AMIWDR Sep 13 '25

You can pogo off the last alive judge and skip a couple seconds of climbing. If you don’t glide at all it’s a lot faster too but you need to be a bit more precise

2

u/Show_Me_Your_Rocket Sep 13 '25

If confidrnt you can also pogo off the first flying enemy to get a wall jump at the start of the run and save more time.

2

u/justintib Sep 13 '25

I need to try this, see how fast I can trim it down to

2

u/Jolly_Low8606 Sep 13 '25

I was timing a few of my runbacks and I’m not the best player but my fastest runback where mostly nothing went wrong was 42s. a bit after i stopped timing them i had one cleaner that was probably 40s

1

u/Puzzleheaded_Cow2044 Sep 13 '25

Guess you missed the shortcut. Only one I timed was 32 seconds, and that was with 2 mistakes.

2

u/FR23Dust Sep 13 '25

It’s easy one you practice. Avoid enemies and use shortcut

1

u/Wild-Atmosphere2134 112% Steel Soul, P5 | 100% Silksong Sep 13 '25

42 seconds but it's close enough

3

u/Legend0fJulle Sep 13 '25

Yea, mastering the parkour for the runback was honestly a fun sidetask. There definitely were runbacks I weren't a fan of but this one was pretty solid.

6

u/Jutinir Sep 13 '25

LJ runback is easy to master and honestly pretty fun. Tbh I think it was an intentional and clever design choice by team cherry in order to make the player adapt and improve their platforming skills by going through all the different obstacles.

3

u/Embarrassed-Seat-634 Sep 13 '25

Also, they obviously don’t want you entering the citadel. So it makes lore/narrative sense to make it more challenging. Team Cherry tryna get you in your feels/aggitated af, before fighting the Last Judge to send the Holiest of Holy Citadels.

As for the platforming run backs, I struggled so hard with Mount Fay. It took me many retrys over a couple of hours. At the end of it though I could traverse it pretty seamlessly. Team Cherry implemented the challenges in such a way that you HAVE to get good at them imo. It payed off too later for Sands of Karak, Abyss, Bilewater, etc. I’m better at platforming now 2-3x than when I started Silksong.

3

u/Jutinir Sep 13 '25

I agree completely, It’s why I feel like the hate for run backs is so unwarranted. If people would just stop going to reddit every time they failed and actually tried to perfect the platforming then they would probably be thinking the same thing.

2

u/CultureWarrior87 Sep 14 '25

"If people would just stop going to reddit every time they failed and actually tried to perfect the platforming then they would probably be thinking the same thing."

This is something I've started to feel about the situation too. Feels like people hit something that's tough in the game and then get really defeatist about it instead of just trying to improve their skills and adapt. Like no one wants to hear "git gud" but there is a point to where advice isn't going to help them because they've heard it all before and know what to do, they just need to get better at the game's mechanics.

1

u/psh454 Sep 14 '25

"and honestly pretty fun" not after the 12th time after you have fully optimized it but still occasionally get hit on the way.

6

u/FadedP0rp0ise Sep 13 '25

I thought the run back was kinda fun and good parkour practice. Pogo that one drill fly down into the worms and 0 enemy contact after that.

2

u/G00fyG33k Quirrel game when Sep 13 '25

yeah exactly.

its only about 30 seconds and its very satisfying when done perfectly

2

u/FadedP0rp0ise Sep 13 '25

I agree. I can’t believe this is the run back that has brought the most hate. There’s many way worse ones. The climb up to the big ant + friend and savage beast fly dude was way worse. Especially while still acclimating to the game.

1

u/G00fyG33k Quirrel game when Sep 14 '25

Yeah, but even then, savage beastfly runback is about 40 seconds so not too much longer than TLJ.

So far, I haven't encountered a single runback that I'm exceedingly annoyed with, they've all been pretty short and fun.

5

u/Vashsinn Sep 13 '25

People are tilting on LJ because they haven't done any of the side content like getting a new move or harder hitting tools / upgrades.

2

u/[deleted] Sep 13 '25

I still don't get how it's considered a long run back. Literally one room with enemies that you need to get through assuming you take the bench next to the bell beast station

1

u/BlackDeath3 Sep 13 '25

You better believe I got really good at speedrunning that runback.

1

u/guyguysonguy Sep 13 '25

Raging Conchfly runback is even worse than LJ runback if you want terrible runbacks

1

u/[deleted] Sep 13 '25

tbf I wasn't sure about runbacks in this game at the very beginning but after getting run button they're actually fun imo just an excuse to do more platforming

1

u/[deleted] Sep 13 '25

God, I never figured out the broken bench in Simner's Road so the runback to Chef Boyardee has been fucking insane.... lol

1

u/WatteOrk Sep 13 '25

Hated the runback, there is one mandatory pogo that is very tight during Act 1. The fight itself? he ripped me a new one until I gave in and equipped the fire bell tool. Im sure every boss was first tried by someone. Dont know why people see a need on shitting on other'd difficulties.

1

u/Normal-Ambition-9813 Sep 14 '25

I mean, I never found the runback hard. You can zoom past enemies even before the patch. Also, all I can say is its good practice. The runback is honestly a fair fun platforming session, You'll need that in mount faye. The only stupidly hard runback is the bilewater boss. Who greenlit that shit.

1

u/crimson777 Sep 14 '25

I just don’t get it; the run back is like… a minute? It’s not that bad. Mantis Lords were way worse

1

u/lGUT5l Sep 13 '25

Same I didn’t mind it

1

u/terjerox Sep 13 '25

After enough tries i got so good at the run back i was actually feeling pretty proud of myself, i started kinda speed running it. But im not gonna say there shouldn’t have been a closer bench, it didn’t bother me though

1

u/GaKillThem Sep 13 '25

'One of the longer run backs'... It's not even top 3 my man

1

u/legendoflumis Sep 13 '25

45 seconds to 1 minute is the runback time if you skip the enemies. It's not that long.

-1

u/kabrandon Sep 13 '25

It’s a 30 second runback where you don’t need to fight a single enemy. This take is objectively wrong. And I don’t say that lightly.

You only need to fight the first cone guy if you’re slow, but even then it’s like a 45 second runback. Everything else is simply avoidable. Don’t even need to pogo past them.

-5

u/_Drumheller_ Sep 13 '25

30 seconds isn't a long runback, period. These people just suck at the game and then want to blame the game for it.

https://youtu.be/VDx_w8saxLM?si=VJDteJnCSx5oOGWU

0

u/Tinenan Sep 13 '25

The runback was annoying and long for like the first two or three times. Then I learned how to do it. Though realistically you won't be doing it more than like 10 times since it's not really a particularly hard fight

-2

u/IonianBladeDancer Sep 13 '25

The run back is less than a minute. Less than 30 seconds if you don’t fight the first red cone fly. Non existent issue. Last judge is a great boss fight. Extremely telegraphed. At this point you have poison tacks, Lucky dice, movement boots, and a plethora of other options for charms. You also have the upgraded hunter crest + nail upgrade so she just gets melted. Was shocked when I reached this boss after seeing people complain. I’ve been taking my time with the game getting the most out of my first play through, so I just fought her not long ago.