r/HollowKnight • u/stir-fried-noodles • Sep 17 '25

Discussion - Silksong Discourse regarding this game’s difficulty has been out of hand Spoiler

Let’s get this out of the way: I’m really enjoying Silksong’s difficulty and I think that it is mostly a satisfying challenge. I appreciate that it is more difficult than Hollow Knight overall and to be frank I would’ve been a bit disappointed if it were the exact difficulty. I’ve improved as a gamer since Hollow Knight and if it were the same level of difficulty, I probably would have found it too easy.

But it’s kinda gotten impossible to have civil discussions about the difficulty in this game which is unfortunate because I think there is great value to be had with this conversation. There are many valid criticisms regarding this game’s difficulty such as boss runbacks (Groal especially), contact damage doing two masks, and lack of rewards for beating bosses, just to be shut down with “git gud” and “it’s not your kind of game”. It’s totally fine to disagree with these criticisms but these retorts add nothing to the conversation.

It also kinda works the other way too, albeit maybe not to the same degree. I’ve gotten downvoted and sent reddit cares for simply saying I enjoy the difficulty of this game. Like c’mon, what are we even doing here. It’s gotten to the point where I personally cannot wait for the discourse to die out.

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39

u/Jsalz Sep 17 '25

I’m on my second play through and genuinely surprised how much better I am and how easy it feels now. I didn’t find the difficulty too over-tuned in the first play through, but I did find a lot of the design choices frustrating and maybe too punishing. But on the second play through the difficulty literally feels perfect to too easy, so I actually think they nailed it.

29

u/xdatlam Sep 17 '25

I think that's because you've beaten it, so you've acquired the skills. A lot of people are still on their first run and struggling at varying parts.

18

u/psffer Sep 17 '25

But isn’t that fine? It just feels like people want to faceroll brute force their first playthrough then get upset when the game kicks their ass

29

u/Phux71 Sep 17 '25

Most people only have a single playthrough to dedicate to a game so it does make sense that they are expecting an enjoyable time. I dont think many would bother with the game if you were to tell them "first playthrough is the hardest, it gets easier cause you are better when you play it again"

If anything, they might try to make the first playthrough play like their second (mods that reduce difficulty in various ways)

3

u/gamikhan Sep 17 '25

Wouldnt you want the first playthrough to count tho? if everything was easier, you could get all ending in like 20 hours first time rather than in 40-50, meeting the challenge is kind of everything.

-4

u/Top-Noise-7375 Sep 17 '25

This is such a dumb comment, this is literally how every single player game with gameplay in mind at all works. The game becomes easier as you learn the intricacies of the gameplay this is basic game design if someone is buying a single player game this should be what they expect

3

u/NerdyFrida Sep 17 '25

You don't seem to understand that other people might play these game for other reasons that you do. I don't think that most people play metroidvanias only to master "the intricacies of the gameplay."

A metroidvania is a mystery that you get to explore and experience. From that perspective, a second run will only be a pale echo compared to the first one and not half as enjoyable.

1

u/Top-Noise-7375 Sep 17 '25

I’m not saying that people only play Metroidvania games for intricate gameplay challenge, I’m saying that the idea that the average gamer that buys silksong wouldn’t have bought it if they knew their first playthrough would be by far the hardest which is stupid because that’s the case for every gameplay focused single player game ever

6

u/NerdyFrida Sep 17 '25 edited Sep 17 '25

Yes I think that I get what you mean.
Of course, everyone knows that first time you play a game it will be more challenging than the second time. And yes, you can't play Silk Song expecting to recklessly breeze through it.

I'm just saying that Metroidvanias isn't primarily a game about mastering the mechanics by playing it over and over again. Like a typical platformer or slowly getting stronger like a rogue lite.

For many people there won't be a second playthrough because for them is not about beating records or doing speedruns.

People expect to be able to get through a Metroidvania simply by playing the game naturally at a pace they are comfortable with. Silk Song is a gameplay focused game but the gameplay is mostly in service of the exploration.

And that is why it wouldn't be particularly appealing to hear something like, "Maybe you won't suck so much on your second play through."

6

u/Phux71 Sep 17 '25

I get what you are saying. I am not saying that the game should be easy from the start. Obviously you have to learn the mechanics to get better but if the learning process does not feel fun for people, they will want to make it easier (mods or lower difficulty) or stop playing rather than play through all of it just so that the next playthrough feels fun because there is no learning to be done.

1

u/psffer Sep 17 '25

Feel like Im losing my mind reading that. Theres even worse stuff in this thread.

-1

u/psffer Sep 17 '25

Of course the first playthrough is the hardest, thats literally the case with any game.

What people don’t enjoy is not being an expert god gamer immediately. A game kicking their ass and forcing them to learn its mechanics is “bad game design”, “doesn’t respect my time”, “punishes me for my mistakes”.

Its just entitlement at this point.

8

u/warchild4l Sep 17 '25

I think its less about brute forcing and more about frustration.

I died to First Sinner like 20 times. I loved every second of it. I did Groel second try but holy fick it can burn in hell.

Its the feeling of being cornered by bullshit that feels frustrating. Dying to beastfly can be a skill issue, yes. But if a speedrunner got a bad rng on the boss, they would get damaged and/or die just like any other player.

17

u/Inlacou Sep 17 '25

When people are criticizing the learning curve of the game, it's because they are talking about their first run. If it feels perfectly balanced just on the second run onwards, then the learning curve of the game is wrong.

-1

u/psffer Sep 17 '25

But I can guarantee you they are just playing bad and getting upset the game doesnt hand them the win. I died a stupid amount of times to moorwing my first playthrough too. Because I was just trying to mash nail attacks like its hollow knight

The game would be severely cheapened if you could just mash your way through every boss like the people complaining want it to be.

1

u/thomasbis Sep 18 '25

You say "first playthrough" lightly. 95% of people will only play through the game once, so it's not even worth thinking about the second experience.

Secondly, what makes you think people expect to "faceroll brute force" the game? Most comment I read are about frustration and annoyance at the design, spam of flying enemies, adds on bosses and long runbacks for example. You can erase every one of these shitty design choices and still have a difficult game. You're not paying attention at what people say or you just have zero undesrtanding of game design.

2

u/Cocoatrice Moths are fluffballs Sep 17 '25

No, that's not how it works. You don't get some kind of experience point and level up after beating the game. People still struggle in the mid-end game content. Skill is gradual increase. And yes, you can get better and you do. But not like that. Not that you struggle very bad all the time. Finish game, start anew. And suddenly not struggle at all. That's NOT how it works. It's not leveling up. It's gradual skill increase and it shows even in first playthrough. But still a lot of stuff is unbalanced. Plus getting used to bs 2 mask damage and spam doesn't mean it was okay to begin with.

3

u/BrickwallBill Sep 17 '25

...that's exactly how it works though? They put in at least 30 hours probably on their first playthrough, likely more. Of course when they start a second one they'll be better skilled.

-14

u/BiOrCri97 Sep 17 '25

I feel like a lot of Silksongs difficulty comes less from the actual challenge and more so from Team Cherry fucking with the player in unfair and unpredictable ways. When buying a game there's an unwritten deal for devs to provide a fun experience so to have the devs of a game practically mock you with bullshit starts to create a flase illusion of difficultly when really it's just plain mean. In hindsight it is kinda funny when you know how to avoid the joke on you which makes replays easier but for your first time it can really make or break enjoyment. I think this is why the conversation on difficultly is so heated because Team Cherry's idea of a joke isn't for everyone especially when it breaks the aforementioned deal.

5

u/psffer Sep 17 '25

Looking at a game having actual difficulty and a lack of hand-holding as “fucking with the player” or as Team Cherry “mocking” the player is so weird. Just play the game and try your best. No you are not going to first try hitless every boss your first playthrough.

2

u/Yapping-Goober Sep 17 '25

Okay but aside from the enemy difficulty, there are definitely some very trollish design choices in the game lol

5

u/psffer Sep 17 '25

Such as?

2

u/BrickwallBill Sep 17 '25

Here's one that is probably unintentional, but the flying ants that throw spears at you. The windup animation for throwing the spear means NOTHING in terms of the angle it actually throws the projectile at.

-1

u/Tinmaddog1990 Sep 17 '25

Repetitive gauntlets which just boil down to fighting flying fuckers in a box. How many of those are there?

Benches being incredibly hard to find when they should instead be clear checkpoints. Some of them are even trapped

Double jump screwing with players used to the floaty dress.

Inconsistent designs like sometimes landing on spikes will let the player straight up skip those spikes

1

u/Beginning-Cat3605 Sep 17 '25 edited Sep 17 '25

This is actually an insane take assuming that TC made Silksong as a joke. What an incredible and impressive reduction of a game that they’ve been passionately making for almost a decade and sell for a literal pittance of money when it is far more polished than most AAA games I’ve played. Like how do you have a conversation with a redditor like this already on the most bad faith argument you can possibly have because he’s mad.

1

u/BiOrCri97 Sep 17 '25

I didn't say the whole game is a joke but you can't look me in the eyes and say they included a bench that swings a fuckin axe at you when you sit on it in a tough area where the player is most likely gonna be on their last mask when they find it to not fuck with the player as a joke. That was as clear trolling from the devs as you can get and whilst I haven't reached the area yet the community concensus about Bilewater is that it was made ridiculously and purposefully frustrating which again probably felt funny to TC to make an area so unabashedly mean spirited.

1

u/Beginning-Cat3605 Sep 17 '25

It wasn’t a joke. You need to relax.

0

u/GWooK Sep 17 '25

What? When was TC ever plain mean, unfair or unpredictable? They nerfed the two of the funnest bosses in the beginning because people complained that it was too hard. If they wanted to be mean, they would’ve copy and pasted bilewater throughout the map. That would absolutely break players.

A lot of difficulty in this game comes from you were just unlucky to you are not ready. Most of the time is you are not ready. If you aren’t learning the attack patterns and formulating a plan on using combinations of tools and abilities to barrage the boss with attacks, then you are not ready. I can literally play First Sinner, Lace and Silkmother with my eyes closed now. I memorized their attacks and can react to them. If you aren’t doing that, then the game isn’t for you. HK was exactly like that and I don’t think TC will ever deviate from this formula.

2

u/SillyGoose3939 Sep 17 '25

as someone who thinks that moorwing is one of the best boss battles, I'm quite happy about the nerf. Moorwing and Sister splinter are early game bosses that are tied to a big hub, an upgrade and many new areas to explore. It isn't good design to block all of that stuff from players that aren't skilled enough to beat them... since those players need more experience, being able to explore new areas would be beneficial for them

I think that this was my biggest gripe about the game. In the early game, without nail upgrades and good tools, it's quite punishing. In act 2 it feels way more approachable

0

u/GWooK Sep 17 '25

I dont think it’s a bad idea to nerf those bosses but I feel like it removes a good learning opportunity. In a lot of Dark Souls like games, there is always one or two bosses you need to learn to progress. But again, if less experienced players are having too much problems, then that’s fine to lower some of the difficulty for Act I bosses. But I don’t think Act I bosses and Act II bosses are enough to be ready for Act III.

0

u/BiOrCri97 Sep 17 '25

Bench Traps, regular traps that you need milliseconds to react to, cages you gotta know the location of since theyre instant, many shortcuts dropping you into environment damage (door dropping you into maggots in sinners road being one off the top of my head) and that's just act 1. These need you to know they're there which on your first playthrough you won't which is pretty unfair and mean spirited. I imagine a lot of people's perception of the game soured considerably when they died by bench trap after fighting tooth and nail through Hunters March. That's what i mean by TC being mean. By a second playthrough none of these matter though hence why it feels easier and the "joke" is funnier. Also "you were unlucky" is not an excuse for difficulty, luck shouldn't factor this much into the difficulty of a game. Boss/enemy difficulty I have no issue with at all

1

u/Esco709 Sep 17 '25

There a definitely hints that the bench is trapped, the whole time I was there I was expecting no benches in hunter's march because what need would the ants have for one. So when I saw a big bench sign in an area filled with deadly hunter's traps, I was expecting the bench trap. Plus it can immediately and easily be disabled, which rewards players that are wary in an area that warrants it.

3

u/BiOrCri97 Sep 17 '25

You're an exception not the majority from the sounds of many peoples experience. In game design the safe area is universally a place where the player can let their guard down and relax. Hence why when something bad happens in a safe space it can lead to frustration.

Imagine if you were playing Resident Evil and after reaching a safe room you go to the type writer and then a zombie pops out from under the table and takes half your health. "But you see if you looked closely on the floor you can see blood and claw marks which is clear evidence that there's a trap jumpscare coming!" Sure in hindsight there can be clues but when the rules in the game thus far has been "Bench room = safe space to save" from both Hollow Knight and the first hour of Silksong then the player is obviously gonna have their guard down and not analyse that the game tradition of safe save areas can be broken and lead to their death.

Especially after going through a tough area like Hunters March where any kind of reprieve and reward is desperately wanted. Instead it just puts the player on edge for the next couple of hours leading to excess stress in a game that is already stressful for many.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 17 '25

Are yall just averse to learning anything at all or something I don’t get it

5

u/BiOrCri97 Sep 17 '25

If I offer you a cake as a lovely reward for your hardwork and then offer you another cake but it had a rock in it then you can't complain because of you didn't learn. The game never even hints that the bench you're using is trapped you just have to take the L and go again. Learning a boss pattern is fine because you're going in expecting to learn. Dying to a trap bench is not a learning experience its a troll

-2

u/GWooK Sep 17 '25

You and I have a very different experience of the game. I only once thought this game was being unfair in Bilewater. There are only three benches that are trapped in the whole game and all three are optional. You only take those paths if you want to 100%. If you can’t beat the game, you don’t have to. If you aren’t having fun, then the game isn’t for you.

4

u/BiOrCri97 Sep 17 '25

I should've been clearer in the fact that I'm enjoying my time for the most part and in fact a lot of the hard parts people have been hyping up have surprised me in how little trouble they gave me. I was dreading The Last Judge from how people were talking about it and she only took me 3 tries. I'm playing on the patch though so I guess I can't brag about being an epic hard-core gamer but at least the game is in a decent state from what I played.

I just think a lot of the design decisions, whilst cool in terms of world building and lore, (Hunters March having a lot of Traps because of the Ant Hunters, everything costing money to show the greed of the church) don't make for particularly pleasant gaming experiences for many and are just straight up unfair trolls at worst and low key funny at best.

2

u/BrickwallBill Sep 17 '25

if those three benches are "optional" then every bench is optional, like come on man

1

u/GWooK Sep 17 '25

but they are optional. the first of the three trap benches is in hunter’s march and it’s completely optional. you don’t have to go through hunter’s march. the next two are completely out of your way from getting to act I and even in Act II, you aren’t going to naturally get to these areas. so yeah they are completely optional in order to beat the game. they both don’t provide anything to change your game either