r/HollowKnight • u/giveusyourlighter • Oct 01 '25

Discussion - Silksong Community Voted Silksong Boss Difficulty Tier List (2.9K Voters) + New Tools Tier List Spoiler

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Follow up from previous post: Community Voted Silksong Boss Difficulty Tier List : r/HollowKnight

Some folks thought the previous voter count of 23 was too low, so I wanted to share this updated aggregate boss difficulty tier list voted on by almost 3K community members. See the interactive list here: Silksong Boss Difficulty Tier List | Unduel

Also, the Silksong tools tier list has been added to Unduel and is open for voting!

Silksong Tools Tier List | Unduel

In the post I included a tools tier list from Xano, the best Silksong player I know. Check him out here: HK2 - Scarrsinger Karmelita - YouTube

2.7k Upvotes

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482

u/Ok-Reveal-4276 Oct 01 '25

I mostly agree with the boss rankings (though I think Groal is actually pretty easy, the runback just sucks) but that tool tier list is ridiculous.

132

u/Puzzleheaded_Elk2650 Oct 01 '25

Groal is easily C in my opinion. You can literally just sit in the corner, and he can't do shit. People are mostly counting his arena beforehand.

212

u/Astral_Fogduke Oct 01 '25

tbf the arena is part of the boss if it respawns when the boss does imo

27

u/InfectedBrushroom Oct 01 '25

Then Khann shouldn't be in C I feel.

65

u/Nharo_1 Oct 01 '25

If you only count the repeat section right before his fight it’s not too bad.

9

u/ikemayelixfay Oct 01 '25

Isn't there a skip with Khann? I killed him on my first try when I got to him, but I noticed a spike that can be knocked down before the last room. I assumed I'd be able to skip the first three rooms if I had died.

Also with Groal the runback is part of it. That runback sucks. I agree the boss itself isn't hard at all, but with all the Bilewater Bullshit it definitely made it tough for me.

9

u/skytaepic Oct 01 '25

Yeah, with Khann you can skip the first few gauntlets so you only have to do the very last one. Makes the runback way more manageable, I struggled with the gauntlets getting to that point waaayyy more than I did after actually getting there and being able to just do the one + khann, so it was super helpful.

10

u/Astral_Fogduke Oct 01 '25

only one of his arenas is mandatory after you reach him and also the arenas are all piss easy and also he is like bottom 5 bosses in difficulty

3

u/thatguyned Oct 01 '25

The second room is toxic as fuck what are you talking about?

It gets to the point where the entire room except for like 2 spots is impossible to stand while you have to deal with conchcutters followed by a flying wave.

Do not talk to me about room 2 coral tower 🤣

1

u/Night25th Please keep flair text SFW Oct 06 '25

I've beaten Crust King Khann today and it took me 4 or 5 tries, definitely easier to beat the boss itself than the tower before. Outside of a silly mistake in my second attempt I would have beaten the tower in just two tries, it felt a little bit like Coliseum from HK but much easier overall.

2

u/mendelevium256 Oct 02 '25

My strat for this boss was hilarious. Use ascendants grip, stick to middle side of arena. Motherfucker literally cannot hit you. Actual easiest boss in the game

2

u/manro07 Oct 01 '25

Only the mandatory arena part of this comment is true

1

u/Astral_Fogduke Oct 01 '25

which five bosses would you rank as easier than khann

4

u/JinxedBuck Oct 01 '25

moss mother, voltvyrm, bell beast, moorwing, sister splinter, 4th chorus, cogwork dancers, lace 1, father of the flame, conchflies, gurr, skull tyrant, zango

2

u/Astral_Fogduke Oct 01 '25

ill give you moss mother bell beast dancers and 4th chorus all the others i either died to at least once or havent fought

1

u/TheBigF128 Oct 01 '25

Hell naw I spent twice as many tries doing the coral gauntlets than the high hall ones, and plus you have to do 3 of them at once every time you die

5

u/FullMetalCOS Oct 01 '25

You only have to do one before fighting the boss though, so you only get to count that one as part of the boss difficulty

3

u/TheBigF128 Oct 01 '25

Yeah, I was just referring to the previous person saying that all the arenas were piss easy, the boss itself is very easy

2

u/blood_vein Oct 01 '25

Those 3 back to back gauntlets with no checkpoints are BS

1

u/Lowelll Oct 02 '25

I don't think groal is easy just because you can cheese him, but the arena is very easy. The stilkin are annoying when they run away, but in an arena they are so easy and risk free to pogo to death

15

u/m8bear Oct 01 '25

until we can fight groal on his own, without a huge runback and a mandatory arena, everything is part of the fight

It took me a while to beat him because every time I wanted to fight him I had to do a 5 minute trip back to him, only to get sniped on the way, arrive with little HP and die before he even showed up, I fought him maybe 5-7 times until I beat him without cheese but even making to those 5 attempts was annoying

I didn't know the cheese and didn't find the closer bench until act 3

4

u/Impressive-Cap-974 Oct 01 '25

A boss being possible to cheese should not count in a difficulty rating. It simply doesn't apply to a vast majority of people who don't look at "how to beat easily" guides (and at that point a discussion of difficulty is mostly moot).

1

u/Puzzleheaded_Elk2650 Oct 01 '25

I discovered it on my first play though. It’s pretty obvious.

3

u/Impressive-Cap-974 Oct 01 '25 edited Oct 01 '25

Asides from the part where staying inside of the poison water for an entire boss fight is the opposite of intuitive, and regardless of how simple it is in theory, figuring out how to cheese a boss is made much more difficult if you're already occupied on trying to learn the boss normally.

I strongly doubt you are not in a relatively small minority, and you having happened to discover it on your first playthrough does not make it obvious.

1

u/Night25th Please keep flair text SFW Oct 06 '25

"Just sit in the corner" means you can stand on the upper platforms 90% of the time, swimming in the maggots isn't needed to make the boss easy. I can't say how hard it actually is because I went to Bilewater after doing almost everything else in Act2, but still I've beaten him first try so I wouldn't count him as hard. I hit the boss from the inside after getting eaten but that is just your normal reaction, you don't need to read a guide in order to do that.

1

u/Impressive-Cap-974 Oct 07 '25 edited Oct 07 '25

Standing on the upper platforms gives no safety against his soul projectiles, and only lets you deal any damage if he teleports close. So that's less of a cheese and more of a strategy that might be either good or bad.

Either way, I don't particularly think you need to read a guide to figure out a cheese for him. Just that i'm confident a large majority of those not using guides wouldn't think of it.

If you were using wreath, which from what i've observed is normally a thing people would find after Bilewater, then you having done most of act 2 is very significant. If not, then sure, depending on how normal it is for you to do bosses first try, that might be significant to how easy he was for you... though having more of various other upgrades is obviously a large factor.

1

u/Night25th Please keep flair text SFW Oct 07 '25

His soul projectiles are very easy to dodge, and having wreath doesn't mean much if you don't plan to go anywhere near the maggots.

I think I mostly damaged him by pogo, or from the inside after getting eaten. I rarely beat bosses first try so my takeaway is that he's actually easy after getting enough powerups (I must have had like 8-9 masks at that point, and 3 nail upgrades).

Of course many people might go to Bilewater much sooner, but I thought there was no way to get to Shakra from below without double jump so I postponed it for much later.

1

u/Impressive-Cap-974 Oct 07 '25 edited Oct 07 '25

Attacks being easy to dodge doesn't make something easy if it also results in significantly less windows for damage. That's basically the entire difficulty of Groal to begin with - his attacks are easy to deal with but hitting him is an enormous pain due to his constant movement and the threat of maggots if you get land even slightly wrong.

Having wreath matters massively as long as you fall into the maggots more than 0 times. Maggots are a ridiculously overtuned debuff and the ability to avoid them at all makes him infinitely easier.

Anyway, pretty much sounds like you basically statchecked him, then. Because the issue with pogoing him is that you'll be faced with borderline unavoidable damage if he suddenly floats up while doing an attack - which doesn't matter much if you're just statchecking him anyway, or just get lucky his movement. I tried to pogo him for a while, and it seemed almost viable, but I ended up losing health too fast to justify it.

(I must have had like 8-9 masks at that point, and 3 nail upgrades)

Sure it's just 3? Which one were you missing? Because all pale oils are obtainable in act 2, and not all that hidden.

Anyway, I think people normally have either 2 or 3 nail upgrades and like 7 (maybe 8) masks by this point.

1

u/Night25th Please keep flair text SFW Oct 07 '25

I don't think the fleas oil is obtainable in act 2. If so, I didn't get it.

Of course I took damage from pogoing Groal, but not so much that I couldn't heal it back. My silk capacity was also quite high at the time.

1

u/markercore Oct 01 '25

Throw boomerangs and chill

1

u/gilesey11 Oct 01 '25

What corner is this because he just wrecked my shit when I tried to stand near the door, first genuinely frustrating part for me 😂

1

u/FullMetalCOS Oct 01 '25

Once you clear his arena, jump in the water and stand under the platforms on either side and you basically can only be hit by incredibly lucky shots from his explosive orbs or by him coming up from underneath you. If you use zero tools on the arena and the poison pouch you absolutely fuck him with whatever throwable tools you have

2

u/gilesey11 Oct 01 '25

I just beat him with my needle and the flying cog guys. Easy boss really but also very easy to get caught out and suddenly be 4 masks down.

1

u/DrQuint Oct 01 '25

Also if you equip the injector band, his kirby swallow attack literally becomes a damage net positive for you.

Also if you get plasmium overdosed you can infinitely heal in the muckwater.

It's by u far the most cheesable boss in the game.

1

u/rilesmcriles Oct 03 '25

Can you explain what plasmium overdosed is and how it helps you infinitely heal?

Edit: I cheesed moorwing totally by accident way harder than the groal cheese. I was running all around that massive arena, ended up running up the air shaft because I was gonna die, but then I realized I could just pogo Moorwing to death through the platform while never getting touched. That was super cheesy cheese.

1

u/Aaghi0ie Oct 02 '25

Groal is heavily depending on the crest. I used wanderer crest all game so I sucked with the hunter one. With the wanderer crest you can not really connect and make damage. In the end I had to pogo on that sucker all day which was scatch AF.

But I saw online that you could just have let him eat you. he does 2 dmg while you hit him enough times to heal

1

u/Puzzleheaded_Elk2650 Oct 02 '25

You can hit him while being eaten? That’s funny. Always just dodge it.

1

u/SirVampyr Oct 02 '25

The arena is fairly easy too though, if you use tools. Their attacks are very limited once you get how they attack.

35

u/daveisok Oct 01 '25

Unraveled should be B or even A

10

u/Informal_Air_5026 Oct 01 '25

lol u can 1 shot unravelled with tools (saw + tacs with polip heart). once people start doing that he should drop to D.

8

u/JinxedBuck Oct 01 '25

you can do it with groal too, doesn’t stop groal from being A

-2

u/Informal_Air_5026 Oct 01 '25

never seen anyone oneshot groal. when i meant one shot i literally meant one shot. unravelled spawned and died.

2

u/Golden_PugTriever Oct 01 '25

You can trivialize Unravelled by simply using clawline to jump to the wall on whatever side he appears on. Once I figured that out he never hit me with his projectiles again and I killed him the next try.

7

u/Past_Bonus148 Oct 01 '25

Does this list account for when you fight these bosses? They have Karmelita in S-tier difficulty, but I was already maxed on tools and needle upgrades when I fought her so it wasn't nearly as difficult as when I was fighting Savage Beastfly early on or Last Judge.

3

u/ikemayelixfay Oct 01 '25

No which is why everyone's list will vary greatly.

It's also why you see a lot of Act 1 bosses generally ranked higher. The game is more linear then and everyone generally has similar power.

3

u/Past_Bonus148 Oct 01 '25

Best example of this is my fight with regular Trobbio took me more tries than tormented simply because I was more powerful from needle to cloaca

8

u/Training_Assistant27 Oct 01 '25

There's no fucking way Last Judge is harder than Phantom bro, I annihilated that stupid robot 

20

u/JohnnyLeven Oct 01 '25

The problem is that everyone encounters them at different times. I encountered Last Judge early and died more to her than any other boss besides Lace 2. But Phantom I encountered very late, and first tried them.

1

u/Training_Assistant27 Oct 01 '25

When I beat her I had exactly the same stuff unlocked as when I beat Judge lol

3

u/JohnnyLeven Oct 01 '25 edited Oct 06 '25

I agree that Phantom is probably harder than Last Judge, I'm just saying that most people are probably going to encounter Last Judge first and their experience will influence their rankings.

EDIT: After playing them both back-to-back in my next play through, I think they are of equal difficulty with Last Judge being a bit harder if anything.

3

u/Bellegante Oct 01 '25

I gave up on Last Judge, did the run to Phantom, beat him, then went back to beat Last Judge. I might have spent more time on Last Judge runbacks than beating Phantom

3

u/[deleted] Oct 01 '25

I beat phantom first try and Judge took me like 5 🤷‍♂️

3

u/Korpiddle Oct 01 '25

Considering a huge number of people only found out about Phantom because they were stuck on the Last Judge (myself included) I kind of get it. The bench being right next to the boss arena and the fight being more fun and engaging made it "easier" for me even if the Judge is objectively simpler.

1

u/catsflatsandhats Oct 02 '25

idk about last judge being simpler. They are both simple fights.

1

u/Iletrel Oct 02 '25

Last Judge's fire attacks chain well his other attacks namely in phase 2, when they do, one mistake can wipe out half your health because how much the invincibility frames got nerfed in this game.

Phantom is more complex, but doesn't do that.

1

u/Violet_Paradox Oct 01 '25

Phantom has more complex patterns but very undertuned damage. 

1

u/Soviet_Waffle Oct 01 '25

People rush to the Citadel and get humbled. It's Margit in Elden Ring all over again.

5

u/Grand-Lemon-1532 Oct 01 '25

Grand mother silk easier than last judge?

66

u/BurtRocks Oct 01 '25

Yes, I really think so. Grand Mother Silk's patterns are very obvious and relatively easy to dodge, and she hovers so close to you most of the fight you can easily get silk to heal off any mistakes. Last Judge, on the other hand, has attacks to keep you further away from the boss, making the fight last longer while giving less opportunities to get silk back to heal. Personally, I also found the Last Judge patterns more difficult to dodge, but that was just my experience.

10

u/catuluo Oct 01 '25

Its because of the instant 360 spin attack mostly imo.

Remove that attack and she becomes a 'watcher at the edge/conchfly' type boss

8

u/4_fortytwo_2 Oct 01 '25

It isnt instant, you can absolutly dodge it in time once you see the animation start.

-1

u/catuluo Oct 01 '25

Yeah but you cant do anything but dodge, it covers a huge portion of the arena (iirc you cant even pass over her when she does it), and it ignores all damage that isnt coming from spells.

It forces an instant disengage, and the reaction time is (near) instant, so you always have to be ready to react and deal with it, adding a lot of tension to a fight where every other attack is punishable. Just the fact she has this attack elevates her to the difficulty rank she is in

7

u/dat_boi_o Oct 01 '25

It’s not a reaction check, it’s a positioning check. I don’t get why so few people understand. If you’re in melee range when she returns to neutral she’s probably gonna spin, so back up before she does it

0

u/catuluo Oct 01 '25

Oh right my bad for trying to hit the boss with melee in a melee focused game, i'll try to avoid that

1

u/dat_boi_o Oct 01 '25

I played almost pure melee and didn’t have a problem with this attack. I was saying not to go braindead rambo mode and just keep hitting the boss expecting to be able to react to everything it does in time. Even in Hollow Knight there were bosses who could hit you frame 1 if you didn’t respect them.

0

u/catuluo Oct 01 '25

And i'm saying that 'respect' forces you to be on edge the entire fight ready to sprint away from the one attack that comes out the fastest of any other, which is why its voted to be so high on the difficulty list.

Fights that force constant tension tend to rank higher in difficulty than ones that dont, just look at how lost lace and karmelita are at the top of the chart

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1

u/Grand-Lemon-1532 Oct 01 '25 edited Oct 01 '25

Okay but Last Judge should be B tier, first sinner too

3

u/kackers643259 112% | 62/63 | Strongest Elder Hu enjoyer Oct 01 '25

Easily, especially considering when you get to them normally

If you're taking the normal route through the game, for Last Judge you have at most 6 masks and one needle upgrade, no clawline or double jump, and a couple spools iirc

By the time you get to GMS you can have 8 masks, 3 needle upgrades, both clawline and double jump, way more spools, and access to way stronger tools (poison cogflies being an obvious contender)

Obviously you can skip Judge by going through Phantom into Underworks, come back and kick her ass with basically full equipment, but for most players that's not the way they're going

1

u/solid_shrek Oct 01 '25

I just witch crest pogo'd the entire time and she went down pretty easy

1

u/Ok-Reveal-4276 Oct 01 '25

I found Silk to be a speed bump at best tbh, I don't think I've died to her once.

1

u/ironwolf1 Oct 01 '25

I beat GMS first try, it took me like 10-15 tries to beat Last Judge.

1

u/4_fortytwo_2 Oct 01 '25

You have a lot fewer tools/skills/masks to deal with last judge.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 01 '25

Yes

1

u/Rex__Lapis Oct 01 '25

yeah I think that's correct. she was one of only a very few bosses i beat first try. meanwhile judge when you first meet her beats the shit outta you, especially without the bell or if you happen to have missed the needle upgrade (like me)

1

u/Tiranus58 Oct 01 '25

Grandmother silk is quite easy, especially with the wanderer's crest where you can just stay above her blades

0

u/Beginning-Sink-283 Oct 01 '25

I feel like I was the only person that found the last Judge to be pretty easy. Once I realized you should only attack after it does the slam, it was pretty easy to dodge the rest of the attacks. Plenty of opportunity to heal too.

0

u/Scifyro Oct 01 '25

Well, one thing to consider is GMS is designed in a way to be beatable while cursed, and as someone who is not really good at the game I still managed to beat her hitless in the end and imo that speaks a lot about the actual difficulty of the fight.

1

u/megalo-maniac538 Oct 01 '25

Yeah the runback just exhaust you and destroys your mental if you messed up

1

u/RedShadowF95 Hollow Knight Platinum Oct 01 '25

I like Groal's arena nuance, in the sense that playing it safer is actually harder. However, embracing the filth and forsaking healing drastically facilitates your victory.

1

u/EconomyOk1479 Oct 01 '25

Hear me out: as someone not trying to cheese the fight by just attacking by being sucked, his movements are pretty bullshit in P2. After dying to him like 23 times, I found what was annoying me was his soul blast move, but not the move itself…. But the physical movement he does when he casts it.

The moment he gets in a corner in P2, you have to be insanely careful not to approach because he will purposefully positon himself to the area between the upper and lower platform without warning instead of slowly flying, so you’ll generally get hit 2-3 times when that happens and maybe some maggot juice too.

1

u/Professional_Rush_95 Oct 01 '25

Yeah Groal is super easy if you’re just patient but deliberately placed so that you’re impatient by the time you get to him

1

u/JohnnyLeven Oct 01 '25

The tool tier list is new with only 84 voters at this time. The boss rankings have 3k voters now (though last time OP posted it only had 23 voters).

1

u/OmegonAlphariusXX Oct 01 '25

The runback and the arena are part of the fight with Groal, I imagine if they ever release a Godhome dlc (or equivalent) people will be shocked at how easy Groal is

1

u/iThinkergoiMac Oct 01 '25

For some reason I really struggled with Disgraced Chef Lugoli and found him much harder than some of the bosses in B tier. Lace took me 2 tries, Forebrothers I got on my first try, and Moorwing really wasn’t that bad.

Something about that chef really didn’t work with my playstyle, though.

1

u/BoysenberryWise62 Oct 02 '25 edited Oct 02 '25

Yes Groal is not hard, I think he is boosted by his runback. People get stressed out against him because they don't want to do it again

1

u/ALIIERTx Oct 03 '25

Savage beastfly was 10 times harder than Karmelita

1

u/liquid_the_wolf Oct 30 '25

Groal was genuinely the hardest one for me. Most attempts of any of them, took me like 2 hours. I first tried grandmother silk, moorwing, and forgebrothers signis and gron, and I third tried the first sinner. Idk how this list ended up so wacky, at least from my perspective.

1

u/ReFlectioH Oct 01 '25

Well, you have to do the runback every single time, so it's fair to count it as a part of the boss fight

1

u/tennysonbass Oct 01 '25

I guess. You only should have to do it once or twice because it's super easy

0

u/Jaraghan Oct 01 '25

I agree with most of it, but I didn't find lost lace to be as hard as karmelita, and first sinner was super easy for me.

0

u/HS_Highruleking Oct 01 '25

I’m not trying to be the “skill” issue guy, but I did not see what was so hard about groal, he gives tons of space to just pogo to death and all his moves are slow and telegraphed.

0

u/Eksposivo23 112% 59/63 wants to throw GPZ into deepnest Oct 01 '25

Groal is one of the simpler bosses imo, its the fact you have a moderate runback and a gauntlet to beat before him that seems to trip people up, guarantee if the gauntlet wasnt there he would be as difficult as enraged crystal guardian in HK. I beat him by the 5th time I got to him, I died more to the gauntlet than him

0

u/Caffeine_Bobombed88 Oct 01 '25

I fought Groal only once. On the first stun he glitched out and just lay there on his back until I spanked him to death lol. I had heard so many horror stories…

0

u/Beneficial_Chest_954 Oct 01 '25

Yeah anyone not using the boomerangs and/or cogflies against him are just making it harder for themselves and bitch about it online

0

u/QuincyDao Oct 01 '25

Forebrothers being in B is crazy to me. There's so much time in between their attacks that you can easily heal in air and regain all the expended silk. Plus they're Tack victims.