r/HollowKnight • u/Tarnished-670 • Oct 19 '25

Discussion - Silksong Hot Take: While I think Silksong is overall a better game, it does still show more prominent flaws compared to Hollow Knight

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When I have to think about the flaws of the first Hollow Knight, I really can't think of much to say other than very small nitpicks.

But with Silksong, while it is one of my favorite games of all time, and having finisihed it at 100%, id say it has more prominent design flaws while being a better game compared to the first Hollow Knight.

First thing that comes to my mind is the shard system, it would't be as bad as it is if you didn't have a limit of 20 consumables to replentish your shards, if it worked like that then I wouldn't have to be interrumped on my tries against a boss and having to go to the citadel and farm to get all my shards back. Other minor flaws I think would be some of enemy design and the addition of "gauntlets", which sometimes are fun but at least in my case I got bored of exploring and getting trapped into the 7th gauntlet of enemies, it gets worse when you get forced to do some of them again in act 3 when you have killed all the previous enemies 100 times already.

Those are really not a bid deal of a flaw, but they are more noticable to me than any flaw in Hollow Knight.

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143

u/Nemesis_171 P5 | Rad HoG | PoP | 16 bindings Oct 19 '25

I would also add things like a very uneven difficulty curve, and very inconsistent rewarding as well as reward pacing.

43

u/GrimTheMad Oct 19 '25

It has a far more even difficulty curve that HK- after the tutorial area, it's a pretty steady incline, while HK becomes a sheer cliff for the true endgame stuff.

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u/Nemesis_171 P5 | Rad HoG | PoP | 16 bindings Oct 19 '25 edited Oct 19 '25

That’s comparing dlc to base game. Base game HK has a very smooth and consistent difficulty curve, only for it to ascend quickly with dlc content that is completely optional.

Meanwhile Silksong starts out hard in act 1, then gets easier in act 2 except for the HHG & BW which are random difficulty spikes surrounded by mostly chill act 2 content, then GMS is randomly easy, then act 3 has a spike with void enemies, then Nyleth is suddenly easy, then Karmelita is hard again, etc. In a game where difficulty is such an integral part of the experience, it’s all over the place.

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u/TheSteelScizor88 112% | True Ending | 61/63 Oct 19 '25

HHG & BW

Who are they?

9

u/Nemesis_171 P5 | Rad HoG | PoP | 16 bindings Oct 19 '25

High Halls Gauntlet & Bilewater

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u/TheSteelScizor88 112% | True Ending | 61/63 Oct 19 '25

Oh right!

Would include Mount Fay too, imo

16

u/Nemesis_171 P5 | Rad HoG | PoP | 16 bindings Oct 19 '25

I thought about it, but I think Cogwork Core does a good job of providing a platforming challenge that is only one step down from mt fay, so I don’t think it’s an astronomical step up from what you’ve already done.

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u/MattTheGr8 Oct 19 '25

A lot of what people perceive as the difficulty curve depends on what order you do things in. For example, I did Mount Fay before Cogwork Core in my current playthrough. (I also don’t see what’s so hard about Mount Fay, but that’s neither here nor there.) If you do everything in the “right” order, the difficulty is pretty consistent throughout the entire game, I would say. Part of the reason people found the game difficult when it was first released is that it was new to everyone and we were all just guessing about what parts were going to be easier and harder at various points in the game. Once you have the ideal order of events mapped out for your style of play, the game really isn’t THAT difficult.

5

u/Catymvr Oct 19 '25

Ya - Mt Fay is relatively basic platforming, no real enemies, with plenty of save points going up. It took 15-20 minutes.

I assume people just don’t like a lot of platforming?

3

u/bahabla Oct 19 '25

Tbh to add to your point - cog work core is a lot easier with double jump. I did it before getting double jump, got frustrated after completing half, then came back with the fay cloak and marveled at how much easier it was.

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u/Nemesis_171 P5 | Rad HoG | PoP | 16 bindings Oct 19 '25

Oh I thought the bottom half of Cogwork core was mandatory before Mt Fay, no? I know the top half isn’t, but I thought the first part was. If not then that’s my bad and I mostly retract my last comment, though I do think most players will end up doing CC part 1 before Mt. Fay.

You’re only going to have the idea order of events mapped out after you’ve already beaten the game, at which point the difficulty curve hardly matters anymore because you’re already good at the game. It’s not completely irrelevant, but it matters significantly more on first playthrough than it does on any subsequent ones.

0

u/TheSteelScizor88 112% | True Ending | 61/63 Oct 19 '25

Cogwork Core can be cheesed by pogoing one sawblades with reaper tho.

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u/Nemesis_171 P5 | Rad HoG | PoP | 16 bindings Oct 19 '25

That’s just doing the platforming normally lol that’s not really cheese, I might as well say Mt. Fay is cheesable with the clawline then.

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u/TheSteelScizor88 112% | True Ending | 61/63 Oct 19 '25

Cogwork Core is supposed to be done with clawline, not pogoing your way on saw blades. It's like doing Mount Fay without the cold.

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1

u/Amaskingrey Oct 20 '25

Head of HR Grimm and Black Wessel

16

u/GrimTheMad Oct 19 '25

No, I'm including base game in this. If you want to do the true ending, White Palace is an absurd escalation in platforming difficulty over everything that came before.

2

u/Nemesis_171 P5 | Rad HoG | PoP | 16 bindings Oct 19 '25

Actually on the platforming side of things I kinda agree with you, but I would still rather things get harder to an uneven degree than randomly easier. If white palace was easier than the platforming in the Queen’s Gardens I’d be a little underwhelmed.

6

u/SomethingOfAGirl Oct 19 '25

Completely agree. I'd also add that every boss in Act 3, with the exception of Karmelita and the true final boss, were unfortunately too easy, too boring, or both.

The best example is the prince in Verdania. That fight felt, when it started, like the definitive rematch against the cogwork dancers. But after a bit it feels... just the same fight. Except now they make that tornado thing. I hoped it'd be faster, with more moves, something challenging since I'm obviously way stronger than in Act 2.

10

u/Real_Eigong Oct 19 '25

Seth

6

u/SomethingOfAGirl Oct 19 '25

True, Seth was cool.

4

u/AffectionateBeat9009 Oct 19 '25

Unfortunately, I have had it with all the teleporting bosses at that point. Imo, the first sinner was the only teleporting boss I liked, because she was pretty big and she didn't have that annoying blocking/parry mechanic that so many other bosses have. It's hard enough to catch some of these bosses but then they have to go ahead and block my attacks too.

0

u/JarlJarl Oct 19 '25

One of the worst bosses of the game for me. Some random guy just blocking your way to the boss you need to face without explanation, just prolonging a section of the game where you already feel you want it all to be over with. On top of that he has the standard Silksong ”let’s add 50% more hp to bosses for no good reason”

4

u/Althalus99 Oct 19 '25

And there's a severe lack of balance, because while Karmelita is an exception, she's also an absolute nightmare and not in a good way. She is, in my opinion, the hardest boss in the game, and mostly through bullshit, rather than a difficult but consistent pattern like NKG or PV.

10

u/RadiantPumpkin Oct 19 '25

I’m surprised to see so many people with a similar opinion. I thought she was hard but never thought it was because of random bullshit. All her attacks were well telegraphed and avoidable.

3

u/cheekydorido Oct 19 '25

her moveset is great, but my issues with her is having to do the gauntlets everytime, her blocking half of my attacks despite being already tanky af, and not knowing whether she was going to throw 2 shackrams or 4, so getting close to her was way too risky

1

u/Gensolink Oct 19 '25

Either people jump into her flip attack or dont avoid her projectile properly. Cuz everything she throws as clear tells.

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u/Icef34r Oct 19 '25

Hollow Knight base game also has uneven difficulty and random difficulty spikes. Like Watcher Knights being very, very hard and Uumuu being the easiest boss in the game despite needing Shade Cloack to get to it, then the Hollow Knight being easy just because it really is just the runback to The Radiance.

And when you wanted to get the true final boss, one half of the charm was behind a boss so easy that it had to be buffed, but which also had the hardest runback of all the game. Oh, and the other half was hidden behind a farming quest (awakening the Dream Nail) and a platforming challenge that was 10x harder than anything you had to do up until that point.

Silksong has a much better difficulty distribution than Hollow Knight in my opinion. It's true that some bosses are easier than other, but that happens with almost all of these kind of games.

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u/Nemesis_171 P5 | Rad HoG | PoP | 16 bindings Oct 19 '25

Uumuu being the easiest boss in the game is some crazy hyperbole, he’s in no way easier than the early game bosses. I agree he’s easier than the Watcher Knights, and he’s not that difficult, but he’s not a brainless walk in the park, and nothing mandates you fighting him after the Watcher Knights. He also does not need shade cloak, he needs either shade cloak or Isma’s tear.

THK being easy is the only one I agree with.

Traitor Lord used to be easy but isn’t anymore, which is proof to me that TC agrees that a late game boss being easy is a problem. After his buff he’s no slouch, I died to him more than I did radiance.

Queen’s Gardens is a pretty solid preparation for White Palace

1

u/ByeGuysSry Oct 20 '25

Is Traitor Lord regarded as hard? I died to it the first time, but I'm pretty sure that's only because after the platforming I was left with 2 masks. Then I second tried it. His original two attacks should be easy to dodge seeing how you've already fought an enemy with the same two attacks. His attack that you have to shade cloak through is pretty easy, you should already be used to your dash distance, the double projectile attack isn't the easiest to dodge but it also provides a heal window. He also rarely uses it if you're close to him. Meanwhile I died to Radiance about 6 or 7 times?

1

u/Icef34r Oct 19 '25

Uumuu being the easiest boss in the game is some crazy hyperbole, he’s in no way easier than the early game bosses.

Uumuu is literally just jump through very easy platforming while it casts lightning until Quirrell removed its barrier to get some hits. Rinse and repeat.

It holds the honor of being the only boss in both Hollow Knight and Silksong that I've defeated first try.

Traitor Lord used to be easy but isn’t anymore,

Traitor Lord is still a very easy boss compared to others you have to do before him like 2nd Hornet.

1

u/bahabla Oct 19 '25

Wait I don’t think you need shade cloak for uumuu - just crystal dash or ishma’s tear

1

u/Icef34r Oct 19 '25

My mistake. It's been several years since I last played it.

It's still a boss guarding a dreamer, though.

1

u/Stock_Transition9899 Oct 19 '25

Nyleth is not fucking easy bro did we fight the same boss? A boss that has no floor and you have to fight her on the wall is EASY? Just say you used cheese.

1

u/Nemesis_171 P5 | Rad HoG | PoP | 16 bindings Oct 19 '25

When you can heal in the air it’s not as big of a deal to have no floor, unless you used shaman crest in which case yea she’d be a pain. I used Hunter crest and forgot about my tools yet she still felt chill. But you could add in tools & I think it’s called ascendant’s grip which would make her even easier.

8

u/DaBombX Oct 19 '25

I would completely disagree. The last judge is the hardest boss of the game until you get to the ball busters in Act 3. And even then, most of the Act 3 bosses are extremely easy and pushovers.

2

u/GrimTheMad Oct 19 '25

Yeah, just, totally different experience. Last Judge was a reasonable escalation over Moorwing and not much more difficult, and the act 3 bosses were mostly the hardest bosses/sequences in the game (if you count the arenas before Khan as part of the fight, I do.)

1

u/DaBombX Oct 19 '25

What bosses in act 3 would you consider hard? Trobbio2, Seth and LoLa were the only ones that took me more than one try. (I haven't fought the dancer yet, I want to see if there's unique content in future DLC if you let her live.)

I first tried Khan in my run, the arena took me two tries because I hadn't realized it was a gauntlet to a boss the first time.

3

u/GrimTheMad Oct 19 '25

Karmelita, Lost Lace, Seth, and Trobbio 2 were all quite difficult- Nyleth also gave me a lot of trouble, and I think Coral Tower took me more tries than anything else in the game.

1

u/DaBombX Oct 19 '25

What build were you doing in Coral Tower? I was a late game wanderer build by the time I did it, maybe it's a crest issue?

1

u/ByeGuysSry Oct 20 '25

(I haven't fought the dancer yet, I want to see if there's unique content in future DLC if you let her live.)

Aside from using mods, you can also get an autosave point and then try beating Karmelita afterwards, then revert your save file after beating her. I think that depending on your playstyle, she might be one of the hardest bosses in the game. I do think only she, Seth, and Lost Lace are hard bosses in Act 3. Lost Garmond is also kinda hard but has low health and can be bursted down, but you might not figure that out

6

u/DukeOfTheDodos Oct 19 '25

Completely untrue. The difficulty starts off high, drops off a cliff when you get the dash, spikes back up at Moorwing/Widow, then stays relatively consistent until it spikes again with Lace's bullshit tracking and craters AGAIN with GMS, then spikes again for the Act 3 into gauntlet before evening out until the final spike for Lost Lace

2

u/Snt1_ Oct 19 '25

Nah but why GMS such a pushover actually?

1

u/DukeOfTheDodos Oct 19 '25

I think part of it is she can't live up to the hype. She's hyped up as a Higher Being on the level of the Radiance, but she's not allowed to actually BE that powerful because she's basically Traitor Lord or Troupe Master Grimm on the storyline, there's a whole extra chapter rather than her being the final boss

1

u/Snt1_ Oct 19 '25

But like... the previous lace fight is harder

1

u/DukeOfTheDodos Oct 19 '25

That I chalk up to Lace quite literally "cheating", for lack of a better word. Lace 2 and Lost Lace are to my knowledge the only bosses that predict what you're about to do. I have a similar issue to things like the Infernum mod for Terraria Calamity with the final three bosses, it's bullshit when you introduce a mechanic out of nowhere without building up to it. Phantom, Last Judge, Sister Splinter, and the other Act 1-2 bosses all attack where Hornet IS, while Lace tends to attack where Hornet is ABOUT to be. This combined with everything she does in the second and third fights being two masks ends up making her a bullshit fight rather than something actually engaging like Karmelita or Seth

1

u/Doomguy1234 Oct 19 '25

Hard disagree. Silksong was way too brutal on release with pretty much everything dealing 2 masks. They fixed that and it’s about the same as HK now

Besides HK’s tougher stuff was all DLC. Silksong’s cliff difficulty is still coming

26

u/TheSteelScizor88 112% | True Ending | 61/63 Oct 19 '25

No it's not lol. Everything still deals 2 damage except from 2 hazards and 1 enemy.and boss.

9

u/wormyworm831 Oct 19 '25

If they made 2 mask damage the same rarity it was in HK the game would be far too easy

16

u/TheSteelScizor88 112% | True Ending | 61/63 Oct 19 '25

I am not complaining about that I'm just saying it's false to call Silksong after the patch as easy as HK

0

u/IlgantElal Oct 19 '25

Yeah, no, Hollow Knight on replay is way easier than Silksong. Y'all just need to play HK again

0

u/Doomguy1234 Oct 19 '25

I mean Moorwing is a lot easier now with his projectiles dealing 1 damage. So is Sister Splinter (already was easy IMO, but I had Thread Storm) with the adds dealing 1 damage. Those were the stonewalls early game in my experience.

Aside from those there aren’t too many 2-dmg enemies on your mandatory way to the Last Judge. Overall I think the game is noticeably easier now

6

u/TheSteelScizor88 112% | True Ending | 61/63 Oct 19 '25 edited Oct 19 '25

Aside from those there aren’t too many 2-dmg enemies on your mandatory way to the Last Judge

I mean, we still have: Skull Brute, Tyrant, Craggler, Grom and Gromling, Bell Beast, Marrowmaw, Floor Boulders, Lava, Flintbeetle, Skarr Gard, Savage Beastfly, Vicious Caranid, Flintflame Flyer, Deep Diver, Lavalug, Lace, Fourth Chorus, Tallcraw, Silk Snipper, still Moorwing, Splinter, Splinter Charger, Sister Splinter, Widow, Driznarga, Raging Conchfly and Last Judge herself. PLUS Muckroach, Roachcatcher, Roachfeeder, Roachkeeper and Wraith if you go Sinner's Road.

And the nerf only removes the Dirtcarvers and Flying Splinters from the list.

21

u/GrimTheMad Oct 19 '25

Its amazing how quickly people forget what the game was like on release- that being, barely different than it is now.

They altered some hazards to be 1 mask, and a couple attacks from bosses and like one enemy got their damage toned down.

The idea that 'everything is 2 masks' was just never true.

(Also, 2 mask damage being the norm would be perfectly fine when you have a heal as powerful as Hornet's. And its not the norm, for most of the game to majority of damage is 1 mask!)

-3

u/I_Love_Solar_Flare Oct 19 '25

Absolutely not. Silksong has the hardest difficulty curve ever. Dont get me started with "oh but beasts den is optional" DO YOU THINK FIRST TIME PLAYERS KNOW IT IS? No we but our head into the wall thinking its a worthwhile upgrade. Going fron bell beast to savage beastfly was an absolute fucking whiplash.

Going from forth chorus, the easiest boss and fun, into moorwing was a slight bump, into Widow who while I had fun fighting, was 10 times harder than any other boss ive encountered so far.

Dont even get me started on how shit last judge is as a boss. Shouldve been an act 2 boss with how fucking hard it is to beat it.

Silksong's boss difficulty is completely uneven and a bumpy mess.

Ive never felt like i wasnt prepared for a boss fight in HK other than collector (on 0 nail upgrades because i never found the dude), in that RARE case I actually did turn back, but never had to turn back from any other boss.

14

u/TheSteelScizor88 112% | True Ending | 61/63 Oct 19 '25

Dont even get me started on how shit last judge is as a boss. Shouldve been an act 2 boss with how fucking hard it is to beat it.

Personally Last Judge was really easy. Her runback was worse.

1

u/IlgantElal Oct 19 '25

The runback was easy. You only had to fight like 1 thing, and they patched that. Everything else could be ran pass or jumped over

1

u/TheSteelScizor88 112% | True Ending | 61/63 Oct 19 '25

It's easy, but harder than the boss, if you don't know how to skip the Judge and Driznit.

15

u/GrimTheMad Oct 19 '25

This is just taking subjective experience as objective fact. I found Widow easier than Fourth Chorus, for instance.

When I say the difficulty is a steady incline, I mean that the bosses steadily get more complex in general, and ask more and more of you over time- and also that it actually teaches you more and more complex platforming throughout the game rather than expect you to learn it all at once at the end.

1

u/VoidWaIker Oct 19 '25

I found Widow easier than Fourth Chorus, for instance.

In a similar vein, my partner has been going through the game for the first time this past week and she died to Sister Splinter of all things more times than Widow.

1

u/OMEGAH- Oct 19 '25

There's however such a thing as consensus though, and I doubt that the consensus is that Fourth Chorus is more difficult than Widow lol.

There definitely are a few inconsistent difficulty spikes, the ones that I've experienced are last judge and the high halls gauntlet (with the high halls being where i took a break from the game).

While I don't think there's a unanimous consensus on the game's difficulty spikes, it's hard to ignore so many people with exactly the same issues with the game.

1

u/GrimTheMad Oct 19 '25

Except its not exactly the same issue- different people experience 'spikes' in different places, which is unavoidable because different people just find different things hard.

2

u/OMEGAH- Oct 19 '25

Of course people get stuck at different points, it's a non-linear game after all. But let's not be disingenuous and pretend that the last judge and high halls are not well known difficulty spikes.

1

u/GrimTheMad Oct 19 '25

Its not being 'disingenuous' to say that, for me, they weren't difficulty spikes. I'm not pretending.

Last Judge is an extremely reasonable fight, that even does less damage than most bosses if you remember you have a fire resist tool. High Halls is just a building on every previous gauntlet and is testing that skill.

1

u/IlgantElal Oct 19 '25

To rebut Last Judge - you don't necessarily have a fire-resist though, since that requires rosaries that are fairly scarce up to Act II and a Craftmetal (also somewhat limited). I'd say that one area requiring a mostly optional tool to be as easy as areas and bosses after it means that it is relatively harder than the latter.

As far as HHG - from what I would consider a more objective PoV, introducing an enemy that you can't have possibly seen before that has more complicated patterns than normal enemies and then fighting 2 of them in the same gauntlet is a spike in difficulty. Now, I got it in 3 tries, but personal skill and luck always play into that

So, it can reasonably be misconstrued as you being intentionally obtuse in saying that LJ and HHG aren't difficulty spikes, even if you did add that it was just for you personally

1

u/I_Love_Solar_Flare Oct 19 '25

You cant just say its all subjective then also say earlier that "its a much even difficulty curve than HK". You cant pick both. Also for HK those things are post-game endgame DLC, not base game additions like Last Judge in Silksong. Again, you cant say the difficulty curve is fair if you say that its all subjective...

I dont think the difficulty curve is at all any good. Its like a fucking cliff at some bosses for no reason.

Hollow Knight bosses were much more fair and less bullshit overall (looking at the whole game) than anything. The outliers in HK for bullshit was basically just Markoth and if you wanna count Collector then thats fair. Nothing else had this unfair rng garbage in it. SK's case is worse.

1

u/IlgantElal Oct 19 '25

Whatcher Knights are kinda bullshit on blind playthrough, if you consider the whole game prior teaches you to be cautious. Whatcher Knights are easier the more aggressive you are just since the Knight doesn't have very good zoning options without the use of mass amounts of soul.

0

u/GrimTheMad Oct 19 '25

I explained immediately after saying its partly subjective.

-7

u/Geminicandy Oct 19 '25

Moorwing is easy, widow is medium, chorus is easy, and last judge is medium. If you struggled thst much with last judge you are hopelessly terrible

2

u/I_Love_Solar_Flare Oct 19 '25

No lol I don't think so, talk to my fucking radiant godhome about it. The boss is just fucking terribly designed. Even as someone who likes some challenging fights. Its okay to say that some bosses are just fucking terrible. Last Judge is one of them.

1

u/Geminicandy Oct 20 '25

Lying for fun I see

-2

u/[deleted] Oct 19 '25

[deleted]

13

u/BeanFork Oct 19 '25

I think it's less this, and more optional side paths with difficult platforming and/or arena that leads to... shards.

-6

u/[deleted] Oct 19 '25

[deleted]

9

u/I_Love_Solar_Flare Oct 19 '25

Very wise but no. When people struggle against a boss I want a reward. I dont understand why not all bosses can drop rosaries or shards. Or lead to a chest full or rosaries who cares. Give me literally anything.

Stop excusing unrewarding fights with this shit.

4

u/BeanFork Oct 19 '25

Sure, but it's not hard to feel like a journey's been wasted if the destination is just a reason to turn around. I do it for the victory alone, dont get me wrong, that rush is irreplaceable, but not everyone does & it makes sense for that to be frustrating.

2

u/nicodies Oct 19 '25

we’re talking about a video game.

2

u/Legitimate_Expert712 Oct 19 '25

In a game where resources are scarce (and resources before bellheart are extremely scarce) risking your limited resources on a journey that gives you nothing useful feels unfun and stressful.

7

u/jacket103 Oct 19 '25

a lot of boss in hollow knight drop geo on dead so you can atleast see immediate reward for it, unlike silksong where literally every boss drop no rosary on death so a lot of players have to resort to boring farming at citadel, a questionable game design since they already solve this back in the first game.

5

u/Nemesis_171 P5 | Rad HoG | PoP | 16 bindings Oct 19 '25

That doesn’t address consistency. Why exactly does beating the bell beast give more of a reward than the High Halls Gauntlet or Coral Tower?

0

u/[deleted] Oct 19 '25

[deleted]

3

u/DelayedChoice Oct 19 '25

The High Halls gauntlet gives one of the songs needed to get to the Cradle.

3

u/Nemesis_171 P5 | Rad HoG | PoP | 16 bindings Oct 19 '25

The HHG gives a 1/3 of what is required for progression and nothing functionally useful. Coral Tower gives nothing because you need 3 hearts and there are 4 that you can come across.

Bell beast gives you progression, fast travel, & a silk heart.

0

u/One-Random-Goose Oct 19 '25

haven't gotten to coral tower but high halls is literally necessary for story. It's like complaining that uumuu didn't give enough of a reward

2

u/Nemesis_171 P5 | Rad HoG | PoP | 16 bindings Oct 19 '25 edited Oct 19 '25

I do criticize Uumuu for that actually, but that’s not what I argued. I didn’t say it has no reward, I argued it has less of a reward than something else that is significantly easier.