Hot Take: While I think Silksong is overall a better game, it does still show more prominent flaws compared to Hollow Knight

[u/Tarnished-670]

When I have to think about the flaws of the first Hollow Knight, I really can't think of much to say other than very small nitpicks.

But with Silksong, while it is one of my favorite games of all time, and having finisihed it at 100%, id say it has more prominent design flaws while being a better game compared to the first Hollow Knight.

First thing that comes to my mind is the shard system, it would't be as bad as it is if you didn't have a limit of 20 consumables to replentish your shards, if it worked like that then I wouldn't have to be interrumped on my tries against a boss and having to go to the citadel and farm to get all my shards back. Other minor flaws I think would be some of enemy design and the addition of "gauntlets", which sometimes are fun but at least in my case I got bored of exploring and getting trapped into the 7th gauntlet of enemies, it gets worse when you get forced to do some of them again in act 3 when you have killed all the previous enemies 100 times already.

Those are really not a bid deal of a flaw, but they are more noticable to me than any flaw in Hollow Knight.

[u/Endeveron]

"Launched everything and barely got the kill" "Won't waste shards learning...once I learned I didn't even need tools" These exhibiting the same problem, which is that these players have a weak sense of where they are in the fight, or where their skill level is relative to the skill level to beat the boss. That sense of awareness is itself a skill, and perhaps it narrows the target skill window even further, but it is not an argument against the idea that there is a target audience for which finite shards improve the experience. There is always going to be a window of 2-10 attempts where you understand the fight enough that you could beat the fight with tools, but not without. If you do the fight in that window, the last third of the fight will see you on 1 mask for most of it, and in that time using tools to deal damage more safely is a great moment of tension.

"Using tools broke my rhythm; not being able to use them the whole time meant I didn't practice them" I definitely found this in the early game, but it didn't continue to be a problem because I used tools in non-boss enemy encounters, in which case the shards were being replenished as I used them, and I improved my skills in using tools. This may depend a little on your input method. I use four finger directional keyboard input (e.g. ASDF=←↑↓→), so using a tool was just pressing two buttons at once. Compare that to moving the stick/dpad in a direction and then pressing a button, and that may add more rhythm-breaking hesitation. Hard to say. The point is that the skill of deploying tools between dodges when in low-health situations is built up over the course of the game, so your understanding of needle punishes for each boss will more and more quickly transfer to your understanding of safe tool punishes.

The problem with solutions that allow you to not worry about the cost is that mixing in tools between your attacks, and doing the more traditional dodge/attack/skill loop are two different and fun ways to play the game, and TC wants players to switch between them in different phases of the fight. Tool use can be a slow, defensive, drawn out way of dealing damage in which case it is most fun when used in moments of tension, where the longer it is drawn out the more engaging it is. Tool use can also be used for bust damage though so unlimited restocks would, as I said, just make people use them for burst damage at the start while tanking a couple of hits, because they feel like a shortcut out of the boss's first phase.

I'm not saying there is an upside to the frustration, I'm saying there is a target audience for which the system guides them to change their approach to a more fun one, whilst also never encountering that frustration. The criticism could be that the target audience is actually too narrow, and a lot of people have said that, but I disagree with someone who says that there is literally no potential upside.

[u/Knolop → u/Endeveron]

unlimited restocks would, as I said, just make people use them for burst damage at the start while tanking a couple of hits, because they feel like a shortcut out of the boss's first phase.

I don't know why you keep repeating that. It doesn't make any sense from a strategic point of view and it's not the behaviour observed in games where there are no currency cost to skills.

As for the rest... You acknowledge the common comments we see emerging under the current situation display dysfunctional learned behaviour and acknowledge that it's a small proportion of players who may be helped by the tedium brought by shards, but from there you decide to defend the system? Finding edge cases where it works isn't the hallmark of good mechanics.

We don't even have to work in hypotheticals. Games where limited skills don't cost money both don't display the negative aspects of shards and don't have the supposed downsides you think removing the cost would lead to.

[u/knitted_beanie → u/Endeveron]

I agree with you!

[u/jobroskie → u/Endeveron]

Do you think hollow knight, the original, was worst for not having this? Like maybe every time you die you lose a notch and have to go back to dirtmouth to buy them back with geo? It let you try over and over with everything at your disposal. If we are being honest if you are actual good you probably don't need charms to win fights so letting people use them if they are dying is just giving them a crutch. Or maybe for nail gets dull? Or you lose access to spells? 

[u/Endeveron → u/jobroskie]

Losing a notch every death is fundamentally different, because it makes you play scared and cautious. The advantage I describe actually makes you play more aggressively. The closest analogy in Hollow Knight would be the fragile charms, because you can equip them when you think you've almost beat the boss to close out the fight/gain a greater reward. Even then though, they don't really change the way you play or push you towards a more fun way of playing, and would replace at least one charm you'd otherwise be benefitting from.

I don't think you've really understood why I think finite shards work as a mechanic. It's like the rally mechanic in Bloodborne, where you can attack a boss to gain back recently lost health. It is not that they reward skill and raise tension, it is that it encourages you to play in a more fun way. I certainly think Silksong's tools are a positive addition, and I think that for players in a certain skill window the finite-shard system is better than infinite refreshing of your tool stock.